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Goldie
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Bend, Oregon, USA
Breed:
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 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| swainsons wrote: | Howzit Mike,
The differences are really in the coat, where the French Brit can be tri coloured (Orange, black and white) the Americans can only be orange and white. Black is not accepted in the Americans. Also, the nose of the Americans are pinkish and the French Brits have black noses. Under correction, I think that the Americans line bred them to run with horses.
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Again to be specific...
American dogs have been isolated from European lines for about 40 years. Hence a drift in physical type. Much like American verses English Cockers..except the French type dog is more rounded in head.
American standard disqualifies Black pigment based on the original French standard of the 1920's. But all French dogs can compete in any AKC event except Shows.
American dogs are not specifically bred for Horseback..that is a fallacy perpetuated by many. But American dogs are a bit more physically athletic, have a bit less incidence of dysplasia in many lines, and few if any show up with luxating patellas.
All American dogs have "Tan" noses because they are homozygous for the brown gene, while most French dogs have at least one gene missing or are homozygous for black.
If you would like to look at French champions over the years, prior to 1951 most all France Orange dogs had tan noses too, this from long time Breeders and looking at the hand written pedigree books of Herve Bourdon at Cornouaille Kennels in Callac.
I hunt all my dogs on foot, all of our Hunt Tests are on Foot and we also have Walking Field trials that are becomming popular.
Some notable looking France dogs with tan noses Iris & Irun du Vallee du Boel,
And of course Nat du Buisson de Choisel had one brown gene so his nose was not jet blak either.
Several cover photos in the France CEB magazine show many dogs with "tan" noses...As the recent champion Liver tri gets uses in breeding the tan noses will be on the rise again.
There are more similarity than ther are diferences....
Does the FCI split the American dog from the France dog in the stud books?. I have a pedigree database of UK dogs and there are American dogs breed with European dogs in the database, just like dogs in Australia, South Africa has intermixed lines, as does Argentina, as well as the USA. Over the years as the type is further differentiated some individuals select one type over the other. Some breed for what France judges call hyper type- the kind of dog that has a head more like a Rottie and not the softer expression of a bird dog.
Good breeders breed for working ability and health and put the "show" polish in when the rest is set. 
Bigest problem in backyards is crossbreeding. It goes on everywhere.
People who think they are improving a breed by breeding pointer or setter into it for competition purposes. I have been told by knowledgeable people it has gone on in the USA and accross the Atlantic over the centuries...after all that is what a Brittany is a mongrel of breeds combined into the smallest of the pointing breeds...
Just like a few France Bretons can Run Grand Quete (wide running) so do a few American Brittany dogs and American owned France lined dogs. These dogs in my mind keep the high drive in a breeding program. Without a few high drive dogs you can loose desire in a breed end up with dog that are clueless on game or will not go out and search at all...this is where "pet breeders" affect the breed or politics shut down traditional hunting affects breeds.
Anyway in Europe at least it looks like the Britany or Epagneul Breton will start to look like a multicolore small munsterlander with a long tail.
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kninebirddog
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Coolidge, AZ
Breed:
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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The American Brittany can be Orange and white liver and white or not desired by the show but not a disqualifaction either a tri color of Orange White and Liver any black in the American Brittany is a disqualifaction
Here in America the French Brittany still hasn't been seperated yet but I know there is the French brittany group which is working on getting them to be classified their own breed
The American britt is design more for bigger run in the horseback trials but many of them make great companion hunters as with any breed not all of them will run the edge...Thankfully
I use my Brittanys to run a walking type trial called NAtional Shoot to Retrieve which is a pointing dog trial where any registered Pointing breed is braced against each other for 1/2 stakes to point and score on Birds and score on retrieves of birds pointed www.nstra.org for better info on this format of trialing
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Goldie
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 18
Location: Bend, Oregon, USA
Breed:
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| kninebirddog wrote: |
The American britt is design more for bigger run in the horseback trials but many of them make great companion hunters as with any breed not all of them will run the edge...Thankfully
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Well it is a sad testament if anyone thinks that American Brittanys are specifically bred for "Biger" run. I know of many East coast lines that are not bred for the "run" but bred to be just great bird dogs.
I know that is the the name of the FT game bigger run...but just because a dog runs big does not make it a bad gun dog. It just means he needs more training to teach him to be more in tune with your way of hunting.
I guess if you by from All-Age trial lines you may get that big run...but the breed norm is still a Gun Dog and there are many breeders who only specialize in Gun Dog qualities. I have a NFC sired dog that could not find a bird it its life depended on it...she did not "awake" to game until she was almost 5 yrs of age. Kind of late to plan any breeding program on. So I would say that run is also determined if it is genetically there and is "devloped". If it is not developed then the dog will not run big, and if the person is wanting a closer dog and they train it to only stay in a certain range they will have that.
The problem comes in some lines where the dog lack biddability in its genes.....it is not the run that is the problem but the cooperation in the genes were lost. JHMO |
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kninebirddog
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Coolidge, AZ
Breed:
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | kninebirddog
The American britt is design more for bigger run in the horseback trials but many of them make great companion hunters as with any breed not all of them will run the edge...Thankfully
I use my Brittanys to run a walking type trial called NAtional Shoot to Retrieve which is a pointing dog trial where any registered Pointing breed is braced against each other for 1/2 stakes to point and score on Birds and score on retrieves of birds pointed www.nstra.org for better info on this format of trialing |
Why don't you take the last 2 paragraph and get the real picture as to what has made the britts bigger runners enabling them to cover more territory then one part of a complete thought..last paragraph states what I use my brittanys for trialing I also should add I use my same brittanys from NSTRA trials to a pheasant preserve in Coolidge AZ...My primary stud dog comes from a highly regarded NSTRA 32x Champion Nolans Last Bullet and again the trials I compete in are WALKING trials...Yes I look to AA dogs I like the lung and stamina they put in to my breedings..I find it easier to ie reel a dog to work closer to me then have them polishing my boot when trying to hunt. Also any well bred Brittany will take the same amount of training provided your breeding for the right reasons..I ahve seen quite a few backyard breedings which produced very little desire to hunt ...My pups from my breeding have made many a hunter extremely happy in teh field with the natural desires I have had my pups go on to field trials mostly gundog or NSTRA type trials I have also had a couple where the people are trying to get a DC title to pups from my breedings.
I also believe that anyone breeding should be concerned with stamina birdiness Style OFA and doing something in their breeding program to be sure this wonderful breed is continued being representitive of the hunting dog with versitile abilities. The American Brittany club is very adiment about maintain the brittany as a Dual dog with hunting and field being important and confirmation also an intregal part of the breeding...WE do not what our breed to become like the setters here in america to different breeds with in it reg of that of a big clumbering long haired weed trap with no bird to the smaller lightly feathered bird dog of the field.
and if you do buy from a strong all age breeding very few pups really hvae the right people buying them or which have that complete indenpence it take to stay out in front and still handle from a singing handler...
The last greatest dog to make the Field trial HOF is Tequilas Joker www.tequilasjoker.com this is a tribute web page to an awesome dog great intensity great style TJ was also a very prepotant sire and has surpassed anything BAndee has though bandee has done alot for the brittany TJ will do more
Also Nolan's Last Bullet aka Buddy he is still around he has done alot for helping the brittany become a more popular walking dog trial and companion hunter he also has put in a great amount of biddabilty in the brittany breed and his progeny are also good about the biddabilty factor in the pups they produce also making them great companion hunters.
out west we need more lung and leg then you back east may need we do not have the cover you have require alot more stamina from our dogs has nothing to do with running a mile in front it has to do with working what cover is avaiable and having a dog 30 feet in front of me will not find me birds here in the desert the training is when my dog finds birds may 100 yards he must hold point till i get there here again this is training no matter what breed
Excuse the bit of a rant but when quoting people It is a good idea to read an entire post beofre jumping on a part and taking a thought out of context
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