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workinghprs.myfastforum.org
Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds.
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petermac
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Location: St Helens, England
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: VDD/JGHV Testing |
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Hi Sinan,
I have just joined the group as Maxine asked me to add a little more information on the VDD/JGHV as I have competed in these tests in Germany with our dogs.
The JGHV is a worldwide hunt testing organisation affiliated to the FCI. They operate all the tests that the VDD (in Germany and worldwide) use to control their breeding programmes.
The VDD breeding regulations state that amongst other things, to have a Drahthaar that can be bred from (or used as a stud dog), it must have passed a 'toughness test', passed at least one JGHV hunt test and passed an independant search in water test. It must have no gun shyness or game shyness in any of these tests. Temperament must also be correct.
A good adult DD should have passed a VJP, HZP and VGP test and be stamped 'Zuchtauglich' on the pedigree (eligible for breeding).
The HZP can be all that is required to get a 'Zuchtauglich' stamp as it covers all aspects required, however, the dog typically is around 18 months old and absolute steadiness is not required. It is, however, a tough test - especially the water work, which is harder than 'Open' in UK working tests. Retrieving and correct carriage/handling of game is assessed but from 'drags' on both feathered game (duck only or pheasant and duck) and furred game (rabbit or hare). The handler is not permitted to speak to the dog once it has a retrieve in its mouth and the dog MUST sit and present before it is taken from the dog. The handler generally cannot assist the dog, this is a test of natural ability and training of the dog - NOT handling and obedience, as is so often the case in the UK tests.
If you want a more rounded DD, that has been tested on fox retrieves, blood tracking of deer, stops on bolting game and is generally has a proven working ability, then you need one with a VGP grading as this is the test of the finished dog. About 40 aspects of the dog's abilities are recorded and tested and a dog that gets a Preiz 1 is a very good dog indeed. Preiz II dogs are also excellent and Preiz III dogs should not be dismissed, look at the detail of the results.
If you want to know more about the regimes, let me know as I have some good articles on them on my Drahthaar site.
Everything is recorded in the Zuchtbuch's each year and you can see the linkages through generations of the scores ie. did a Preiz 1 dog come from Preiz 1 parents etc.
Peter
| maxine mccullough wrote: |
Hi Sinan,
No the JGHV are tests associated with the FCI - the UK Kennel Club whilst recognize the FCI do not follow their standards or testing system - we have our own field trials and working tests. We have no system in the UK governing what we can and can't breed from, there is no requirement here to have any sort of formal tests done before breeding.
I think the VDD system is an excellent testing system, I think the system they have for documenting evidence of genetic breeding abnormalities is also excellent. The yearly stud book allows you access to every litter registered together with all problems recorded about each puppy tested, each stud dog etc., - including any temperament issues if they arise.
Regards,
Maxine |
_________________
Peter McCullough
Deutsch Drahthaar UK
Lets get JGHV standards for all HPR's in the UK
http://www.drahthaar.co.uk |
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windem bang
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 3166
Location: central scotland
Breed: g.s.p. - brit.- labs.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Peter , what is a "toughness" test ???
Bill T. |
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petermac
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Location: St Helens, England
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| windem bang wrote: | Peter , what is a "toughness" test ???
Bill T. |
Hi Bill,
Good question .... this is often the source of 'hard mouth' and 'aggression' type comments about German dogs, quite incorrectly in my opinion.
The HN test (Härtenachweis) is where, during a test, the dog in question was witnessed by an Association judge despatching a predator, quickly and effectively (within any of that countries local legal requirements). It is typically some form of rodent or squirrel. This test is pretty standard for all hunting breeds and done when the dog is quite young.
The dog knows the difference between 'game' and 'predators' and that is reinforced throughout its training as a versatile dog. It is a test of the dogs inate character towards predators.
Assessment of temperament, game shyness and gun shyness (on land and in water) is a big deal and they are done at the HZP/VGP tests and must be observed by several judges.
Aggressiveness, nervousness, hand shyness towards the handler, game shyness and gun shyness are assessed on documented standards and taken very seriously. After all a failure on one of these areas excludes the dog from breeding (a dog which after passing a VGP is usually worth upwards of 5,000 euros).
The later HZP/VJP tests there is a focus of on 'Art Des Bringens' which is where the judges observe (through binoculars often) the manner in which the dog picks up, holds and presents game to its handler, which should always be in a gentle manner but without dropping the game. They will get away with placing the game on the ground to change their grip, but only if, in the opinion of the judges, it could not have escaped had it been alive.
The Germans are fanatical about correct carriage of game and usually train their dogs to pick up game correctly - ie. picked up in the middle, balanced and gripped only firmly enough to stop the game escaping. However they do not overtly inspect the bird, they consider their observations sufficient. They would, for instance, mark down a dog that carries a bird by its wing or rolls it around in its mouth - regardless of whether the bird was still intact.
All of this means that a tested dog should have the correct innate characters but you should still then follow the usual sensible advice of getting the dog familiar with its environment. Whilst some have, many young German dogs have never met sheep or cows, just deer, foxes, hares etc.
They simply need the handler to familarise them with what the ground rules are if you want a dog to perform in your environment.
Hope that helps.
Peter
_________________
Peter McCullough
Deutsch Drahthaar UK
Lets get JGHV standards for all HPR's in the UK
http://www.drahthaar.co.uk |
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sinan
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 53
Location: istanbul
Breed: spaniel
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Peter,
Thanks for your explanations. Your DD in your web site are very nice too.
I wonder do your dogs get their exams in Germany or in the UK? Who is judging them if they get in UK? Germans or you have judges approved by German VDH. We have DK club has been established about three years ago and organized Solms and AZP last year and the dogs judged by Germans from DK verband in Turkey. How your DD club works in the UK? I think so our DD club will establish soon. |
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petermac
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Location: St Helens, England
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Sinan,
We do not have a JGHV group or judges in the UK. There are a few committed people like myself who take their dogs to Germany and do the tests there. I am a member of the Hamburg VDD group. They would help us start our own group and send judges if enough people really wanted to. Unfortunately I am the only person in DD's in the UK doing this as far as I know.
Do you know Aziz Omur from Turkey. He joined our group at the Hegewald last year to watch as he has Bockenhagen bred DD's he uses for wild boar hunting.
_________________
Peter McCullough
Deutsch Drahthaar UK
Lets get JGHV standards for all HPR's in the UK
http://www.drahthaar.co.uk |
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Helen
Moderator
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Lancashire
Breed: GWP, English Setter, ESS, Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of gwp owners who just want their dog to work, who aren't bothered about tests, trials etc. Keepers who don't have the time, or inclination to go out and do these "tests". Why should they? They just want a dog to work.
We knew someone on a shoot who brought over a dog from Germany, who had "passed all the tests". It was the worst dog I have ever seen on a shoot. The dog would take off after deer, hares, rabbits, pheasants but that was "ok, cos they allow that in Germany".
I'll just stick to working my dogs in this country and just getting on with it.
Helen |
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petermac
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Location: St Helens, England
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Helen wrote: | There are a lot of gwp owners who just want their dog to work, who aren't bothered about tests, trials etc. Keepers who don't have the time, or inclination to go out and do these "tests". Why should they? They just want a dog to work.
We knew someone on a shoot who brought over a dog from Germany, who had "passed all the tests". It was the worst dog I have ever seen on a shoot. The dog would take off after deer, hares, rabbits, pheasants but that was "ok, cos they allow that in Germany".
I'll just stick to working my dogs in this country and just getting on with it.
Helen |
Hi Helen,
Don't get me wrong. Tests in themselves do not make a good dog. There are plenty of poor dogs from a working perspective that have gained awards in UK field trials and working tests. The issue is more one of what 'working my dogs in this country' means to the individual.
Whilst I take my dogs regularly on shoots to beating or to picking up it is not what they are bred for, they come rough shooting with me. When they are on a shoot they are judged by the keeper on how they perform on the shoot, but that knowledge is very local and very specific.
HPR breeds are a versatile rough shooters dog that can work on any game, they are not simply a labrador or spaniel replacement and are best on their own with the hunter - true hunting, not clay pigeon shooting with live game.
An unfinished DD from Germany will take off after live hares etc. They have been trained to do that for the HZP, but once they have been through a VGP they are expected to halt without command to a bolting hare.
As for deer - the major role for Drahthaar's across Europe is to blood track and then pursue and hold at bay wounded deer and other game. Again that single minded focus is what is bred for, hence the breed is so popular with Deer stalkers.
If the handler knows what they are doing, then the dog will perform, if not then like anything it will fail. Then a lot of people will simply, as you have done, think that they are all the same. They are not.
_________________
Peter McCullough
Deutsch Drahthaar UK
Lets get JGHV standards for all HPR's in the UK
http://www.drahthaar.co.uk
Last edited by petermac on Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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windem bang
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 3166
Location: central scotland
Breed: g.s.p. - brit.- labs.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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So if I am reading this correctly a very well bred German Dog that has passed every test available in Germany might very well fail to gain an award of any kind in a U.K. novice field trial ? It doesn't make sense to me to work towards that or to bring into this country dogs incapable of meeting our more rigourous soft mouth standards. Years ago our judges were bad for letting hard- mouthed dogs slip through . I know of at least one hard mouthed field trial champion . A backlash happened against this and other bad judging practices and K.C. observers were imposed on our trials , unless we keep our own house in order this could happen again.
I do not think I would be in favour of bringing in German style tests or the breeding to do well in them. I have spent a very large part of my life trying to make our breeds acceptable on shoots, many of which really detested the H.P.R. breeds.
A gundog should be suitable for the country it has to live and work in. I don't think German style tests can determine that for work in this country.
Good dogs we need , good luck to anyone who imports one , hard mouthed or in any way doubtfully tempered dogs we do not need. I hope nobody brings even one of them in.
Bill T. |
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petermac
Joined: 04 Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Location: St Helens, England
Breed: Deutsch Drahthaar, German Wirehaired Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| windem bang wrote: | So if I am reading this correctly a very well bred German Dog that has passed every test available in Germany might very well fail to gain an award of any kind in a U.K. novice field trial ? It doesn't make sense to me to work towards that or to bring into this country dogs incapable of meeting our more rigourous soft mouth standards. Years ago our judges were bad for letting hard- mouthed dogs slip through . I know of at least one hard mouthed field trial champion . A backlash happened against this and other bad judging practices and K.C. observers were imposed on our trials , unless we keep our own house in order this could happen again.
I do not think I would be in favour of bringing in German style tests or the breeding to do well in them. I have spent a very large part of my life trying to make our breeds acceptable on shoots, many of which really detested the H.P.R. breeds.
A gundog should be suitable for the country it has to live and work in. I don't think German style tests can determine that for work in this country.
Good dogs we need , good luck to anyone who imports one , hard mouthed or in any way doubtfully tempered dogs we do not need. I hope nobody brings even one of them in.
Bill T. |
A novice field trial tests only one aspect of a dogs work. Pointing , flushing and retrieving a bird with a high degree of steadiness. It is in a rough shoot type scenario - 1 dog on its own, no distractions. The water test is frankly laughable in most field trials, German dogs have to do than far more on water work at 12 -18 months of age than an Open standard field trial dog.
Many trial judges complain of robotic and over handled dogs that lack passion or raw natural talent. They are a product of our system.
Most shoots in the UK simply breed thousands of birds each season, release them, have well organised beating teams to drive them over the guns and then a team of pickers up.
This is very much a UK practice and considered barbaric by most hunters across Europe. It is shooting, not hunting to them. They are not saints either, but they do hunt WILD game and are not allowed to breed/release game. The role of the HPR is to produce game for the hunter and to reduce the suffering to game after the shot.
The point is temperament and hard/soft mouth has to be assessed independently - whoever's scheme is used. Locally bred dogs and local knowledge is one way (but is doomed to failure in the long term due to a small gene pool), trials, test etc. are another.
Certainly I have seen plenty of UK bred, UK trained dogs put out of field trials for hard mouth - I have seen plenty of labradors with terrible temperaments on shoots - so whatever system we have does not work as well as you seem to think.
_________________
Peter McCullough
Deutsch Drahthaar UK
Lets get JGHV standards for all HPR's in the UK
http://www.drahthaar.co.uk |
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Helen
Moderator
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 1693
Location: Lancashire
Breed: GWP, English Setter, ESS, Pointer
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The issue is more one of what 'working my dogs in this country' means to the individual. |
Having a dog that does the job that they want it to.
| Quote: | Whilst I take my dogs regularly on shoots to beating or to picking up it is not what they are bred for, they come rough shooting with me. When they are on a shoot they are judged by the keeper on how they perform on the shoot, but that knowledge is very local and very specific.
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I use my spaniels for beating - perfect job for them. I have taken my young gwp but that has been purely for gaining experience in a working environemtn, and to show people that gwp's really can work! there has been numerous posts on this board about using hpr's for a beating line. A lot of people don't like it and don't take them. If that's all the work that is available for their dog, what harm are they doing if they have a trained dog there? It's getting people out in the shooting community, which I think is far more important, than not being able to do the job that their dog was properly bred for.
My first gwp was used, and still is, for purely grouse counting - circumstances really as well as contacts. As the years have gone by and I have made more contacts, my young gwp is being trained for rough shooting. PLENTY of opportunity for walked up grouse and pheasant shooting here next season. She's also going out tomorrow (weather permitting) to help my OH radio track some grouse.
| Quote: | If the handler knows what they are doing, then the dog will perform, if not then like anything it will fail. Then a lot of people will simply, as you have done, think that they are all the same. They are not.
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I agree, it was total handler error on his part but I have spent an AWFUL lot of time preaching to people how hpr's really can work. I have seen some horrendous gwp's working on shoots, but have probably seen more springers, labs etc. Usually, it's the people who get them because they like the look of them. The ones who are serious about working their dogs - just do it "because", on the main, have a well behaved dog.
A dog my dog sired, went to a keeper and he has done a fantastic job of changing the minds of people about gwp's. He is used for picking up, as well as beating on grouse and partridge shoots. He has an amazing temperament and the softest mouth. His owner just gets on. He's not bothered about promoting the gwp, he just wants a dog that does what it says on the tin. That dog alone, is going to probably do more than a dog that wins all amount of things because it is being worked in the shooting community. He is certainly a local celebrity.
As I said, I'll get on with what I'm doing and enjoy my dogs for what they are. I'm not striving for anything, just to have a nice dog, I can work. I also show very little but just because I enjoy it. I really don't have the competitive spirit to be out there every week. Would rather be working or training my dogs.
Helen |
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