Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: Is anyone monitoring tail damage and amputations in hprs?
It has become necessary for one of Anyas pups (pet home) to be docked aged almost 11 months old. There is another pup in the litter showing regular tail damage and it may have to be docked. That only leaves one left undamaged. The main problem is not 'working' or lack of it, but simply that these pups are very very happy waggy pups who are damaging their tails just being happy
I am disgusted tbh that this situation is still unchallenged, so before I write off to whoever with the wrong facts, please can someone tell me if there is a central effort to log these things or a common route to take action?
Looks wise the pet owner has come to love the dogs tail but is taking the decision to opereate based on vets advice, from a vet in NI (who loved the fact that Finn had his tail) who is seeing increasing tail damage since the UK ban. They have tried everything to heal the tail but it just isn't working. I have asked for letters from the vet and from the owner of the dog being docked.
I am hoping that someone out there can help me, I really think this is sickening, for a pup aged 11 months to have to undergo surgery for simply being a happy dog.
For generations now the breeders of HPR's haven't had to worry about the proportons/looks of their dogs' tails as the vast majority of them have been docked. In Pointers there is a "Pump handle " tail that appears from time to time but other than that just about anything goes but the "Bee sting" tail is still the most desireable.
Now that tails will be left undocked there are bound to become an issue that will have to be dealt with by judicious breeding. For all you know the best/most successful show dogs may have poor tails but just about any issue like this can be resolved over a few generations of considered breeding.
Sue Pitman with the GSP's is collating information on tail damage - especially those who have gone onto to be amputated. We've heard that two of our litter from last year has had to have their tails amputated and we are at the moment collecting information and photos.
Disappointed with Des's comments...... Great if there is such a short tail available in HPR's to breed to and thereby eventually reduce the tail length and when will people stop relating HPR's to the type of work and working attitude of "Pointers"
As breeders we do take things seriously but as I said a) there isn't a short tail gene in HPR's that I know of b) health, working ability and type is probably higher on my priority list than a short tail. _________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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During the consultation period with DEFRA prior to the docking ban I asked who would be recording tail damage, the response was that it wasn't expected to be necessary. On pressing them further and asking who they would accept tail damage reports from the response was that the BVA or RCVS where the only organizations from which this evidence would be acceptable, when I pointed out that both organizations where fundamentally opposed to tail docking full stop and would therefore be highly unlikely to collect this information the reply was that it wasn't likely to be a problem...
Whilst having Fi hip scored on Sunday we were told anecdotally (by the vet doing the x rays and some of the vet nurses) that Weimaraner's seem to be particularly susceptible to tail damage (they had noticed Fi was docked and were asking questions).
As for going for a short tail gene Dr Bruce Cattanach proved that was perfectly possible to introduce the short tail gene into boxers and be breeding boxers true to type within four (?) generations. I believe he lost interest when he found the short tail didn't breed true, although he did identify a plan to have it breed true (as it does in some breeds) but a lack of interest in the boxer community put paid to that idea. All of this was done with the KC sanction and I think I am correct in saying that he found no incidence of deformed spines etc. amongst dogs born with short tails. _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
Thanks Sharon I will certainly pass on everything to Sue Pitman I have just received pics and I have requested a letter from the vet and the owner, I will also copy the RCVS and my MP and possibly the plonker that pushed this through, Ben someone or other I think, I'll find it somewhere. Also the KC for info I think.
Mike I reckon it has a lot to do with tail covering too (which was why I was suprised that you had experiences with this Sharon, I thought the hairs would help).
I'm not sure whether to be disappointed about the comments Des, I understand that this is something new that if it is going to be tackled and bred for should be do-able within a couple of generations, it's just that I seem to remember hearing that argument from the antis when they were coming up with their reasons why we should stop docking. And this is an example where we tried to go along with the bill and look whats happening, the poor wee dogs are suffering, not us, not the antis.
I know the owner will be OK, he's a good owner and I'm really proud of him to be honest, I'm just worried how this is going to affect his really happy young dog.
One thing that is bugging me is the vets that do dock who are adding extra requirements over and above the AWB. _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
INterestingly whilst hunting around for the current DEFRA requirements (they have changed there website again breaking all the links on the BASC and RCVS websites another great use of our taxes) I found this relating to Scotland:
Quote:
What would happen if the Council of Docked Breeds submitted evidence to the government that dogs with undocked tails were suffering an increase in tail damage as a result of the ban?
We would have to consider this issue if it arose.
Which seems to suggest that in Scotland at least they will consider CDB submitted evidence. _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
I am interested here as I have had a WSS who was docked who experienced bramble damage, my deerhound who would never have been docked has split his tail as he thinks like a gundog and launches into deep bramble cover and my current foster is a full tailed weim and she whacks her tail everywhere.
With luck my foster will do more field training while she stays once she is over her season but I am a tad worried about her lovely strong tail as she uses it loads.
My ickle breton remains the only dog I can be sure won't damage his tail!
It is such an emotive issue that I hope all comment can remain constructive. _________________ Sue, Brice, Chase and Piper
never forgetting Mugi and Freddy - happy hunting boys!
a) there isn't a short tail gene in HPR's that I know of
Sharon, didn't you know that Allez is a natural bob-tail? I thought you did? There are quite a number of naturally short-tailed Brittanys. The Kennel Club allow the word 'bobtail' to be included in their registration documents if correctly certificated. I also have a bobtail bitch, Belle, from top working lines in France, who is about to whelp 6 pups, of which I would expect 50% to have short tails(the sire was docked, but his litter brother is a bobtail, so it is just possible he is also a short tail in which case the percentage would theoretically increase to 66.7%). The gene does not just cause a bobtail. It can cause any length of tail up to two digits short of a full tail. So, many dogs will have been docked which carry the gene. Brittany breeders are also now importing new bobtial stock from France.
Dr Cattanach came to our weekend last year and gave us a very informative lecture on the short -tail gene.
The bobtail has appeared in two Cocker litters that I know of. One here in Scotland a few years ago and another in Ireland earlier this year.
Friends of mine have a rescue Springer which they now work. She has had her tail amputated at 2 years because of continual damage. Their vet's disgruntled comment was "should have been done at birth, saved the poor bitch this trauma" _________________ Aberdon HPR's. Good-looking AND Intelligent.
Sorry Annie I wasn't meaning Britts because they have, as you say, natural bob tails. I was meaning the other HPR breeds that have full "normal" tails and it's all very well breeding to naturally short tails if they are there to start with.
Perhaps we should start a "mixed" breeding experiment with Border Terriers as they have nice short tails. Just imagine the "dog anti's" getting wind of breeders deliberately breeding mixed breed litters just to fix a trait that "Joe public" don't even think causes a problem!!!!!!!
_________________ Sharon Pinkerton
www.bareve.com
Owner & breeder of Field Trial 1st prize winners
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another great use of our taxes) I found this relating to Scotland:
