Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: Myth-Busting: The Grand Duke and the Grey Ghost.
Hi All,
So I spent most of the weekend trying to tie up a few loose ends in the weim chapter of my mega-huge-never-ending® book project. Just when I thought it was ready to send it to the editor, I decided to dig a weee bit deeper into the story of good old Grand Duke Carl August and the Weim he supposedly created. And wouldn't ya know it, as soon as I looked beyond the usual propaganda repeated in Weim circles for decades, the whole story began to unravel.
I now consider the myth BUSTED. The Grand Duke, IMHO, wouldn't have known a Weim from a Whippet.
CAREFUL NOW! if you take the following phrase: greyhound x lurcher - "nice weimeraner" repeat it often enough, loud enough and publish it in some sort of breed "bible" a new myth may be born:
The Grand Duke Charles "Ben" August of Sachsen-Weimar-Gloucestershire created the Weimaraner by crossing greyhounds with lurchers and ancient German cougar-dogs..... _________________ facta non verba
So what does the Weimaraner Klub e.V. have to say about the origins of the Weimar?
Isn't it possible that whilst his influence on the breed may be important (or not), it may have been limited to those working in his employ or a passing interest? I kind of think to most non dog people a strong interest in a breed would warrant barely a mention in the life of someone "important"?
Whilst the proof may be scarce "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."
Personally I feel the history of the Weim is less important than the future of the breed... _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
So what does the Weimaraner Klub e.V. have to say about the origins of the Weimar?
German reference material in general is fairly circumspect with regards to whatever roll the Grand Duke, or indeed, any of his fellow nobles may have played in the development of the Weim. It is in the US, and to a lesser degree, in the UK that the more or less unsubstantiated link between Charles August and the Weim is taken as gospel.
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Isn't it possible that whilst his influence on the breed may be important (or not), it may have been limited to those working in his employ or a passing interest?
Maybe...maybe not. The fact is, we do not know and those who claim that he practically created the entire breed with a wave of his magic wand never, ever, ever, provide any solid evidence for their claims. At best, they trot out the same tired engraving or dusty painting and conclude that any dog in it is a Weim.
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Whilst the proof may be scarce "Absence of proof is not proof of absence."
The proof that an old man in a red suit slides down my chimney every Dec. 25th is scarce indeed. But the absence of proof does not prove he does NOT slide down my chimney. But as we all know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And some breed histories contain pretty categorical statements: "The Grand Duke Carl August certainly played an important role in breeding and establishing Weimaraners as the special prerogative of the German aristocracy".Weimaraner Ways
But what exactly is this statement based on? Is in not in complete opposition to the positions of Herber and Kleeman, arguably the most knowledgeable experts in Germany in the early days of the breed? One would expect there to be a pretty big smoking gun proving them wrong.
But where is it? What is the source that confirms the claim that not only was the Duke somehow associated with the breed but "played an important role in breeding" them? If there is evidence to support this position, why is it not presented?
It seems to me that there are only two answers: 1. Evidence that the Duke played an important role in the breeding of Weimaraners is so scare, or so highly secret, that only anointed authors of weim bibles or gifted literary detectives have access to it or 2. The whole Grand Duke connection is a crock.
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Personally I feel the history of the Weim is less important than the future of the breed...
Agreed. But I also feel that the best way to move forward is with a clear understanding of what we are working with... a grey hunting dog that has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. Why must we pretend that we are dealing with a "noble" race of super-dog created by some fancy-pants Duke? _________________ facta non verba
Last edited by chiendog on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
The proof that an old man in a red suit slides down my chimney every Dec. 25th is scarce indeed. But the absence of proof does not prove he does NOT slide down my chimney.
You are correct that the abscence of proof doesn't prove that he doesn't slide down the chimney, however the laws of physics do prove that it is impossible for him to visit everyones house in one night and observation (i.e. looking at your chimney on the 25th, is a dodgy old man found in your living room at 3am etc.)will show that he doesn't come specifically down your chimney alone.
Personally I feel that if the Weim Klub don't think it is of import then it probably isn't... _________________ Fi 1 year old Weimaraner
Grace Weimaraner. Gone but not forgotten.
Harley Weimaraner. Much loved and sorely missed.
Yes. I do. And my opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion. If you hold a different opinion, so be it.
Or should I say, "so what?"
Please keep in mind that I have done my (humble) best to investigate the issue before forming my opinion. As much as possible, I've weighed the available evidence specific to the Weim (and the Duke) and have considered the issue in the broader context of the overall family of continental pointers (HPR's).
What I found was complete silence from the Duke and his court, unsubstantiated claims from (mainly) North American sources and the same tendency to latch on to the nearest nobleman/king/Duke/Earl found in most of the other HPR breeds*.
So my conclusion is this: If any connection between the weim and the Duke does exist, it is very weak. But in an effort to play up the exclusivity of the breed, especially in the post war years in the US when the Madison Avenue marketing steam roller really got going, people saw what they wanted to see in dusty old paintings, embellished old stories, made up new ones and then repeated them all until they became "fact".
Now, if someone were to provide evidence to support an opposing argument, I'm certainly willing to re-examine my position. Until then however, I guess the only arguments I'll get are ad hominem.
*Remember, the Weim is not the only breed to claim a near royal origin. Cesky Fousek histories always point to a letter about a King sending Bohemian dogs to a friend (5 centuries before the breed actually existed!), Some Braque d'Auvergne histories claim their breed was brought back from the holy land by Templar Knights (if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you...) Many people believe that Baron Sigismund von Zeidlitz und Neukirch created the Pudelpointer (he didn't, but he certainly encouraged others to do so). Kurzhaar people regard Prinz Albrecht zu Solms-Braunfels the "father" of their breed. And the connection is well established by reams of documents. But no one seems to mention that he was also the "father" of many other breeds. The Prince was famous for his Teckels, he registered the first dog in Germany's new stud book (a St. Bernard), he supported Korthals in the creation of the Griffon and he owned one of the largest Pointer and Setter kennels in Europe.
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