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sako75

This may be a stupid query Rolling Eyes

I attend training days organised by the HGSP club , these days are both fun and educational. My problem is that the training is geared towards the GSP. I own weimaraners and know that they do differ from the GSP in many ways.

My question is - Are there any obvious differences that should be adhered to when training a weimaraner compared to a GSP ??

I know that many of the training methods are basically the same for many HPR'S but I do feel that each particular breed must have strengths and weaknesses.

What is the weimaraners weakness and how do we modify the training to improve ??

Any comments welcome !!

Barry. Confused

weima · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:31 pm Post subject:

I would say, & I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but the Weimaraners main weakness has to be it's hunting. That is the drive to hunt all day long. I don't have that problem with mine, I have the problem that they don't know when to have a rest Wink

There is nothing wrong with training with the GSP as afterall, they have had the most success in FT so they must be getting something right Very Happy

A lot of FT people [that I have a high regard for] have commented to me that they really like Pagan when she is hunting as she hunts 'like a GSP'.
I think if you can train a Weimaraner like a GSP you're on to a good thing Very Happy

_________________
Claire Smile

Minstergate Dual Purpose Weimaraners

BritAnnie · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject:

Barry, as you know I have Brittanys. I will be starting the HGSP group in August. I was always told that Brittanys should be trained obedience and retrieving first due to their very high hunt drive. This is why I'm going to a lab trainer first. If you know what are the Weimaraner's recognised weaknesses why not ask the trainers to concentrate on that for you?
Annie
_________________
Aberdon HPR's. Good-looking AND Intelligent.

Watch out for bobtails!
www.aberdon.org.uk
Join the Brittany Club and make more of your HPR
www.brittanyclub.co.uk

sako75 · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject:

Hi Claire / Annie ,

I think you are right to an extent Claire , The GSP'S that I train with quarter the ground at a relentless pace. I do not have a problem with Logans hunting (his drive and instinct are incredible) but with Millie , I am having a few problems with her actual DRIVE - she seems almost lethargic at times Shocked

. She has not really encountered much game throughout her life and I think I need to get her out and actually let her chase or experience live game.

Annie , I do not think that the actual training days can help with "DRIVE" , I think it is down to me to let Millie loose at times and let her experience what her life is all about - finding game !!!

Maybe I am wrong to "let her loose" but I done this with my older dog in the early days and he is like a ballistic missile in the shooting field - very fast , focused and keen as mustard. I put this down to his youth and not being restrained at every given oppertunity.

weima · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject:

Don't forget that Millie is still young & as yet doesn't really know what they job is about. She has yet to hunt, point & retrieve warm game hasn't she?
I think you may find that once she has experience on warm game, she will be a very different bitch & her drive will be more apparant.
_________________
Claire Smile

Minstergate Dual Purpose Weimaraners

BritAnnie · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject:

This seems similar to what Bill talks about with Buck - I'm sure he can help
Annie
_________________
Aberdon HPR's. Good-looking AND Intelligent.

Watch out for bobtails!
www.aberdon.org.uk
Join the Brittany Club and make more of your HPR
www.brittanyclub.co.uk

windem bang · Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject:

Hi Barry, I think you have answered your own questions. For a brittany getting them to "GO" is very rarely a problem, so the retrieve side of things is concentrated on. This can happen with g.s.p.'s too, I made a mistake with one I'd bred myself and failed to notice she was so switched on to hunting she'd lost interest in retrieving.
You seem to having much the same problem that I am having with Buck at the moment - a lack of hunt drive --- GO !!!
As I have said before I have always in the past allowed my dogs to train themselves to "go" on game before I teach them to stop/handle. This worked very well for me most of the time with most dogs. A handler either needs to be a know- nothing beginner to do this OR be pretty confident of his own abilities. Usually what happens is that the beginners dog fairly quickly goes out of control and is rarely brought back under full control --- Ring any bells ???

Some handlers, as I once did, do this on purpose. The difference I suppose is ,these handlers are fit, able to anticipate and counteract and probably more important, able to judge when that dog is right on the edge. He will note this and begin putting in the obedience training he has done without the presence of game. He will be completely consistent at insisting on instant obedience from his dog. The dog still wants to be away hunting or even chasing but the handler counteracts this with just a little bit extra on his side or in his favour. This can be done Barry but it is NOT for the faint hearted ! It is much easier to say than to do and that is an understatement. That is why although I once trained my dogs in this way, I do not recommend it to all others. If I did I would be responsible for the ruination of many dogs. If you decide to go down this route, you are on your own, only you can decide when to press down on the brakes, it varies greatly from dog to dog.
Too soon and you will not have got much further forward, too late and you have a dog that may go like a bat out of hell but it is no longer working for you.

You asked what the forum thinks are the Weimaraners faults. Are you trying to get me crucified !? I have seen a fair few weimaraners work and they do I.M.O. have differences, taken as a breed, from some of the other h.p.r. breeds.
To start with the plus features, nearly all the weimys I've seen have been pretty good in water. Most of them I've seen with strong - and I don't mean physical strength - owners, have been capable of a high standard of obedience. As a breed they seem to have good noses, it is how they often choose to use them that can cause the weimy GUNDOG problems. I assume it is a breed thing for many of them seem to work head down, groundscenting. This is probably, I think, the main reason for the breeds often commented on ,lack of range and pace.

I have noticed that many weimy owners go in for various tracking or ground scent orientated competitions. I cannot help feeling that if the winners of this type of competition are being more sought after than the others as breeding materiel , then this liking for ground scenting is being bred in. Obviously I can't be sure but it seems likely to me that if someone wants to buy a pup with a work background, they are going to have to hunt hard to find one with F.T.CH.'s on both sides of its pedigree. This being, I think , the case , a person with good intentions of buying working breeding will go for a pedigree showing some indication of a work background. It is usually the case though that this pups ancestry will be composed of dogs that are very good at tracking or similar NOT at head high hunting. Perhaps some of the more recent imports from the continent will have a more balanced background , I couldn't say.

If I were to purchase a weimaraner I would not encourage far less train it to track. Why encourage something that could work against you ?

I am in no way a weimaraner expert, many others will know far more than me. These were my opinions based on what I have seen and what weimaraner owners have told me. I may be drawing the wrong conclusions from these ???

Bill T.

sako75 · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject:

Hi Bill / Claire

I agree with you as far as my older dog is concerned. He was more or less left to his own devices when he was a youngster and this has made him "go like a bat out of hell" as you put it. To be honest though , I would not say that I don't have him under full control whilst out shooting - he is pretty steady although it was a real battle of wills to get him steady to game. The one area that I DO have problems , is his retrieving of freshly shot game. I put this down to his DRIVE (also not being introduced in the correct manor) because he has such a desire to hunt that he will keep dropping the game on his return and immediately start hunting again , it is as if he can't be bothered with the retrieve - all he wants to do is hunt. As I have said before , I do not mind because he always produces game for me , and I do not mind walking 5 yards or so to pick the game .

Millie is a totally different proposistion. She has shown me so far that she is VERY steady in training and I do not want to lose this early steadiness. I find it alot easier to train Millie than I ever did with Logan but this could be down to good sound advice and my learning curve with regards to her training.

I think Claire has a good point in that - Millie has not as yet experienced a solid point on pheasant , neither the flush or fall of live game. I am fairly confident that once she experiences the real thing , her drive and indeed motivation will rise considerably.

I think that you are right with your attitude to "letting her loose" - I do not want her being SO hot on game that it ruins her training thus far. It is actually quite pleasurable hunting her at the moment not having to worry about her bombing about at 100 mph like a raging lunatic !!!

What are your thoughts on the old DOG or BITCH question ???

I sometimes put Logans drive down to him being a wee bit headstrong and I must say that training a bitch in my limited experience has been far easier than training a male.

Let me know how Buck progresses , I would be interested to learn of his progress - Do you intend to trial him ??

Cheers for now

Barry. Very Happy

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject:

Hi Barry, When I was younger I preferred bitches to dogs. My first ever dog was a border collie bitch and she trained me and spoiled me. No matter how stupid I was in training her she always wanted to please me, she just kept on trying different things until she hit on the right one ! It came as a bit of a shock to me to find out not all dogs or bitches are like that. The result was when I was a teenager I thought I was a brilliant trainer - the truth was, she was a brilliant bitch!!!

I then had four males in a row, each one of them absolute pigs to train by comparison to her. I went back to bitches for a long time. I then bred a labrador male and he was a doddle to train. My real turning point was a G.S.P. male I'd bred, Bucks uncle. He was a very slow starter and did not begin to hunt until he was about 8 months, after that he never stopped hunting. He was so easy to train and such an all round good dog, I now tend to like males ! They don't have seasons and provided they are not of the type that like to fight I get on great with them. I find little or no difference in their working abilities.

Bill T.

windem bang · Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject:

Sorry Barry, I missed a bit. I usually manage to write something about Bucks' progress in Bucks Diary. For the most part I am pleased with him. Given the game supply and a few years taken off my present age and state of health, I would definetely "free hunt" him in order to get the range and pace, the"GO!" I have always liked.

I cannot do this now, I have to ensure I keep some control over him by using methods that may result in a loss of "GO !"

I would like to trial him but I don't know yet if he will be good enough. It seems likely that I will at most get about 2 opportunities a YEAR to actually work him as an h.p.r. - That is not nearly enough practise for trialling.
Even if he becomes a really good trial prospect, I have some doubts whether my health would let me do a full days walking. I suppose it would greatly depend on the terrain and the speed the trial moved along at.

Bill T.