Well posted Lesley. That was an interesting read . Basically the guy seems to be saying that if you want to train a dog just mix and match with what works for that dog using any tools available or even no tools at at all ?
I agree with that approach , I never have needed to work things out scientifically in order to make them work in everyday life.
Train to the dog and not to the "method."
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Have to admit Bill I am doing a right mix at the moment. Buddy and I have had a training session with Rory and we started clicker training classes two weeks ago. I am seeing what works best for him and he does seem a little deaf sometimes so I need to shout other times a whisper will suffice.
However, I saw a bloke on the field yesterday trying to get his dog to do a 'down' by holding the dogs cheeks, up on his back legs, shaking his head and shouting so loud that my dogs got excited 100 yards away. Now THAT is just a downright insult to the dog's intelligence _________________ Lesley, Holly (nearly 9) Buddy (2) both rehomes.
Lesley you will be amused to hear that folk are now asking me for Clicker Training lessons to cure gundog problems ! I make it very clear that I am not any kind of expert at clicker training yet still folk ask for help. I think the reason for that is that I am still a fairly down to earth gundog trainer and I don't make any big claims for C.T. (Clicker training) - or for O.C. (Operant conditioning ) or for B.W. (Bum walloping !" ) A little bit of each and each in its place works fine for me.
This summer I have now helped C.T. train a couple of labs, a couple of G.S.P.'s , a springer and a brittany.
I never thought I'd see the day when I'd be doing that ! I think it has actually helped that I don't know all the big "in" words or phrases or letter abbreviations. I just try to explain things in plain ordinary English and sometimes use Buck as a demo dog. I think using C.T. or O.C. "speak" actually alienates many gundog people who might otherwise try to learn a bit more about the "newer" methods.
What is it they say about old dogs and new tricks ? I',m still making attempts to learn.
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Awww well done Bill. I clicked just as Buddy did something else at classes last weekend and I still had to reward him. It's all about timing and even then it's possible to miss that split second. Must admit the jargon does put people off sometimes.
Trouble is if I do something aversive I feel sooooo guilty. I threw the lead at Bud the other day and that's the last thing he needs when he is playing 'keepers' on his return. Training can be soooooo frustrating at times. _________________ Lesley, Holly (nearly 9) Buddy (2) both rehomes.
It is amazing how a thoughtfully posed photograph and nice punctuation and English suggest the author knows what they are talking about.
THE ONE item that leaps from the article is the assertion that dominance doesn't take place in wolf packs in the wild. Now anything filmed of wolves in release schemes isn't truly wild but there are hours of film shown annually on Discovery of the matriarcial society that is a wolf pack and the effects it has on the members of the pack. Only the alpha female, and a few higher ups, come into season and there must also be countless minutes of film of subordinate wolves having to wait to feed last etc.
As for clicker training I have thrown down this gauntlet many times, but if somebody will lay down the clicker training regieme that will turn a hard going pointer at a half a mile when they hit a deer line I'll be an instant convert.
I do dominance with a small "d". My dogs aren't allowed to put their paws up on me. If they want to come and hang out they put them on the wall or fence or anyboby else who's mug enough to let them but they don't do it on me.
And bye the bye, dog training never was and never will be a science. Its an art form.
The only reason the fence post doesn't do serious damage to his rectum is that he spends that much time jumping from one side of the fence to the other he never actually sits on the fence.
Great post, Les. I've tried to stick with positive reward training as I'm a newbie to everything. But have to admit I would so love to find a good trainer within easy reach of where I live. I've no idea if Grey is still a monkey because he's just hard work and would be for anyone, or if it is because I'm too passive in my positive training. Perhaps a combination of both. If I had someone to work with and who wouldn't come up with some gump, chance would be a fine thing.
Last trainer I 'interviewed' was supposed to be a clicker trainer (not gundog) and first thing they did when they came in to the house was say 'no touch, no eye contact, no speak' just like the little Cesar Milan man. Then she said that dogs are domesticated wolves. So that was a none starter for one. It's not what I thought I was getting.
I've no idea how I would punish Grey in a traditional sense. I wouldn't know where to start. He seems tough as old boots if you bellow at him and even giving him a smacked bum really doesn't do much. He's not a sensitive fellow. But I have wondered how he would be in the hands of someone much more experienced than me. _________________ Grey's blog http://greys-days.blogspot.com/
Lou, I very rarely ever watch Cesar Milan so I don't know his methods. I must be doing things all wrong because I continually give my dogs eye contact ,voice contact and I don't just touch them - I cuddle them !
I'm sorry to say that up to present I don't think much of the dog whisperers I have come into contact with.
Those kinds of methods must work or they wouldn't be in use but I've kept and trained dogs for a fair while now and so far the dogs have been reasonably sane individuals even although I do everything wrong.
Bill T. _________________ Breed for the best - train for the rest.
Last edited by windem bang on Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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) A little bit of each and each in its place works fine for me. 
