" HPR Breeds in the UK are in a mess"

langhaar · " HPR Breeds in the UK are in a mess"

Has any one read John Naylor's " Pointer Polemic 2 " in the GSPA Magazine?

Mike

Langhaar,
Any chance you could scan it and email me a copy?

josie

shall we post it up here and have a discussion about it, if we acknowledge source and author?

Mike

Might be an idea if we contact the author first? Don't suppose there is an email address with the article?

Mike

I've had a chance to read the article now. Certainly food for thought.

BritAnnie

What are the basics of what he says?
Annie

Helen

I would be interested to read it as well. How can I get to see a copy?

Helen

guy

yes - a copy would be interesting.

munstyman

You'll have to join the GSPA Laughing

Read it, digested it, agree with most of it and heard most of it before!!
Peter

langhaar · Hpr's in the Uk are in a mess

GSP'S don't rule OK any more Peter it seems and whose fault is that!
How about Club's in the UK protecting the dogs ( not the establishment ) for a change!

Mike

Has anyone read the article and strongly disagreed with it?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what should / could be done to address the situation?

Helen

What struck me about it was he was looking at field trials when assessing the quality of the hpr's in this country. There must be hundreds of hpr's out there working but not competing. Just because they don't compete, doesn't mean they are useless. I am hoping to trial with Teal but not purely to prove her working ability because she would have done that a long time before we enter a trial. She is a working dog first, then a trialling dog (if we even get that far).

However, I do feel that some of the hpr's have been "messed" around with too much. Their working ability is being bred out of them because people want a "pet", not a dog who is on alert on every single walk. I've seen on message boards, weim owners having MAJOR problems because their dog is off hunting. They don't understand that these dogs are bred to hunt and wonder why their little darling is running off hunting rabbits. They are allowed to free hunt cos owners think it's fun but then they come a bit unstuck cos they can't get the dog back. I'm sure these owners would love to have the dog without the hunting instinct.

There are more and more people getting into working gundogs which is a very good thing. I belong to a springer message board where more and more people and training their springers for gundog work. They aren't bothered about shooting over them but just want to use their dogs natural instinct, as well as enjoy themselves.

Gone off on a bit of a tangent there but I hope you know what I mean!

Helen

Claire

How can I get a copy to read ?

Not got my email set up yet as just got new PC and waiting for blooming BT to send me a new disc which apparently I need before setting up my email account Rolling Eyes

BritAnnie · email

Claire
I see you have a hotmail account. To pick up emails type hotmail into google and follow the links to the mail section, put in your user name and password and you can pick them up from there. Works with almost any provider - I have hotmail and yahoo accounts and do this to check up every so often that Outlook Express is doing it's job.

lagopuslagopus

Claire I have e-mailed it to you

Claire

Ah ha ! Thanks for that. I must admit to having never used my hotmail account for anything other than nattering on MSN Embarassed

munstyman

Your stirring me up again Langhaar Smile

There are two main problems as I see it, first not enough working people take an active part on the club committees, and given that showing is the majority of members interest of these clubs who can blame them Exclamation

Secondly the different clubs do not work cohesively together to protect and pursue a working preference in the breeding of all the hpr's and gundogs in general. Add to this that the KC does not always act in the interests of `working' dogs and you get the situation that most of us are aware of, and to be blunt this is not going to change whilst we continue to appease the system as it is.
As you know, my opinion of HPR owners ( well those that work their dogs) are that like the hpr breeds they own tend to be `strong' characters Wink

Whilst they may have similar views, put them in a room together to address this problem and it will inevitably end in chaos, mores the pity. For evidence just look at the HPRFTA, in principle it was a chance to get things right for our dogs and a stick to beat the KC with should it be needed. Due to character clashes with those involved and subsequent Club `committee' apathy in support it was soon castrated as a force to be reckoned with and is presently on a drip awaiting the enevitable over dose.
My view is we should take our lead from across the channel rather than from Clarges Street, breed our dogs for the purpose they were developed, prove that work first, grade their conformation second and breed only from dogs with the relevent qualifications. Here again I emphasise Grading rather than winning in competition as I believe the latter is flawed in proving the best lines to breed from.
There you go, tin helmet thrown down, standing tall above the parapit and banner flying Rolling Eyes

Peter

BritAnnie · working - breed standardds etc

An old breeder(working labs) once said to me - "if it ain't made right, it can't work right. It needs to have heart and lung room, the legs need to be strong and the right shape. If not so, the dog cannot work all day as it was bred to do"
The Kennel club Standards were set up to ensure this was the outcome. Conformation is every bit as important as brain power!
Annie
Breeding HPR's that are Good-looking AND Intelligent!

Helen

Mike

Mike

guy

If that is so how have ESS developed into two distinctly recognisable forms - those that work and those that show?

lagopuslagopus

I quite agree Mike there is much too much difference in the standards of the different tests set.. I was saying exactly that after this weekends tests, where the novice ended up easier than the puppy! IMO there should be a split and a blind in novice and they should be able to do the blind first if that is what is set, otherwise they are not ready to go up into Open. It does the dog/handler no good whatsoever to win out of novice when the tests are too easy.

BritAnnie

I can tell you why!
It's the same as Cockers, which I used to own. The Show people will happily bring in a working dog into the breeding lines if it looks good, especially a FT CH, but the working people won't touch a show one with a barge pole, simply because, and I honestly have heard this on numerous occsions "Show dogs have no brains" We come back to the same issue - the breed standard is what we should all strive for. I was going to check the KC stndard for Cockers as I don't think working ones fit it but the site is down.
I was recently asked for a working line stud dog for Brittanys - needless to say I put them right - ours is a dual purpose breed and the working lines from France are very strong. No Brittany in France can be bred from without being confirmed - that is - it's shape, not it's brain!
Annie

Mike

The thing I find amazing is that the "official" step up from Novice is to open! So I can see both sides of the judges dilemma i.e. trying to pitch the tests to not discourage newcommers and yet trying to make them hard enough to stretch handlers before open. I would like to see graduate become an official class and become a true stepping stone to open which should be a gold standard which we all aspire to.

Maybe GWT should also be split so not all the stakes are run at the same event?

josie

I agree with all that's been said, especially the need for grading, as opposed to competition. Mike has hit the nail on the head with the reasons for this.

We have always thought about moving to the US and so I'm naturally interested in what is available, dog-competition-wise, over there and have been looking into it. At the GSP Sussex test last week, there was a v nice American guy who won Novice with his GSP he brought over from the US, and I got talking to him. Turns out he is a NAVHDA judge in the US and now more than ever, I wish there was something like that available over here.

For NAVHDA there is a NA test, for dogs up to 16 months old. Then there is a UTP - Utility Preparation test - and a Utility Test. Each test is scored on certain set, specific criteria. Dogs are awarded Prize I (highest), Prize II or Prize III. (These are not 1st, 2nd, 3rd - if they were the right standard, all dogs entered could get a Prize I. )

More to the point, there are 3 judges watching every part of the test and a maximum of 10 dogs which can enter each day. All judges must attend a judging clinic every 2 years, to ensure they are all grading equally. At the clinics they discuss certain scenarios - what happens if X happens, how would the dog be graded?

The US KC holds hunt tests, where HPRs earn JH, SH, MH titles (Junior, Senior, Master Hunter). Again, these are not competitive and are against a standard rather than each other. Their FTs are competitive.

By the way, we need 10 people who are interested and then I believe we could set up a NAVHDA chapter (club) in the UK. There are NAVHDA clubs in Canada and they have an international section. We just need 10 members to start off with.

Edited by big_mike to say:

Discussion about starting a UK NAVHDA Chapter can be found here:

http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/ftopic511.php

Helen

josie

I don't think they should HAVE to pass a test to breed, but that doesn't mean that tests shouldn't be available, for people who want to test their dogs prior to breeding. As in the US, for example.

I mean, if I was a puppy buyer, I would rather buy a puppy from this breeding:

Sire: Woofity Woof MH, UT (Prize I) x Dam: Bow Wow MH, UT (Prize I)

Than this one:

Sire: Joe Blogg's Dog x Dam: Betty Boo's Bitch

Along with a verbal assurance they are "good" working dogs - after all - what one person things a "good working dog" is, might not be what another person thinks at all. That is the purpose of testing - it is fact, not opinion.

josie

PS - Just wanted to add, that this, for me, is one of the major probs with the UK system - perhaps Betty Boo's Bitch has won 3 open working tests, and a novice field trial - how would you know that, from looking at her name????

In as much as the US system is a bit bonkers the other direction, with all the awards and titles which are available, I do wish that more working achievements in the UK could be reflected as titles, before or after the name, rather than only the very elite "FTCh" title.

Allyson

Well let's see, what titles are available in the UK..

Ch (3CCs and an SWGC or a field trial qualification)
Ag Ch (3CCs)
Ob Ch (3CCs)
FT Ch(2CCs)
WT Ch (2CCs)
AW (Agility Warrant)
OW (Obedience Warrant)
FT W (Field Trial Warrant) I think..........
CDex, UDex, WDex, TDex, PDex in Working Trials
P Beg ex, Beg ex, Nov ex, etc in Obedience
AD Endurance Test in Schutzhund
Fh1 FH2 Tracking tests in Schutzhund
Sch1, 2 and 3 protection work in Schutzhund

Really the only thing you do not have initials for in the UK is Spring Pointing Tests and Gundog Working Tests.

However I am sure if the lobby was strong enough you could get these?

Mike

josie

The only official FIELD title, before or after a name, in the UK is FTCh.

FTW I believe stands for "Field Trial Winner" and is not an official KC approved title - it means they have one leg towards FTCh - could be wrong with that, if I am, someone please put me right.

Spring pointing tests are again not recognised by the KC, so KC titles are unlikely to be given for these if they're not recognised.

Generally, if you look at the two systems, not just field events but all disciplines, the US system sets up tests (generally) and assesses the dogs at each level of the test, giving an award for meeting the criteria. Only at the top level, once the dog has progressed through all the "meeting test standards" do dogs compete against each other. Much as with working trials in the UK, but in ALL disciplines, pretty much without exception, a dog can progress through tests and receive titles before having to compete against others for the top "...Ch" titles. It is much more about meeting standards and much less about "who's the best?".

Pippa · meeting standards

josie

Don't worry Pippa, we're eagerly waiting for your HPR tests to come out too!

Pippa · tests

There seems to be quite a diversity of opinions as to what exactly should be tested for in an HPR test.

It would be interesting to know what forum members would like to see in our tests and what emphasis or priority they would like to see placed on each aspect of HPR work.

Pippa

Edited by big_mike:

Suggestions for the HPR tests can be made in their own thread here:

http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/sutra3460.php#3460

Allyson

This is where Kay Laurence's system of assessing dogs against specific criteria comes in, which also has a gundog element.

Like Spring Pointing Tests the K9 multisports is not KC registered but it does mean that dogs are assessed against criteria rather than competing against each other. The other plus of this system too is that it has assessed assessors Smile

and it is very inexpensive to participate, £8 I think from memory.
Wink

However to be fair to the Kennel Club it has introduced the preliminary stage gundog certificate and second stage; is that not marked against specific criteria to meet a certain objective?

This of course IS Field orientated. I am curious why more people are not taking this assessment if they are interested in "grading" systems as such? Especially as it is only £10! Wink

josie

There are a bunch of reasons I didn't enter the working gundog cert held nearby recently:

Firstly it was on the same day as a working test literally 5 mins away from where it was held, in fact the last working test of the season which we can make, and I hummed and haaed for a long time about which I should do and eventually decided to do the working test.

More importantly, it tested several things which as a HPR person, I hadn't been training for and seemed more intended for spaniels or labs. I read the booklet about what was expected and I spoke to 3 people who have done the test in the past. It seems that, as for walked up shooting in lines and for retriever trials, steadiness plays a huge huge role in these tests.

For example: heeling off lead in a group of dogs from the car park to the starting place, a considerable distance away - dogs breaking instantly failing. Having dogs in a sit stay while other dogs, sitting right next to them, are sent for retrieves. Heeling dogs and walking forwards in a line (several people together - walked up shoot), and dogs being sent from this line for retrieves without other dogs breaking from right next to them.

A lot of this stuff is pretty standard for labs, as it's what their trials are like too.

By comparison - the steadiness we work on for HPR stuff is - remaining in a sit when something is thrown. Sitting to the flush. Not breaking a point. Dogs tested individually. It's totally different.

The KC say that the point of the GWC is to test dogs in conditions that resemble a shoot - well, the conditions on a shoot are very different to what is traditionally required from a HPR.

I didn't feel it was fair to enter Slate in something which we hadn't trained specifically for - and as it was so different to what is required in HPR trials and tests, and as I would only have a few weeks to prepare, I decided not to enter and to do the HPR working test instead, which I knew would test skills I had been training for.

Allyson

So does this mean that the KC have designed a generic test which suits/favours one sub group over another?

And do they not use HPRs on shoots for beating etc?

I am confused.........

Mike

My reasons are fairly similar to Jo's.

After reading through the booklet I came to the conclusion it was just not relevant to what I was doing with Harley. i.e. working towards a dog that will be useful roughshooting and hopefully trialling (which is after all supposed to mimic a rough shoot)

Allyson

How odd.................

josie

Well, to be fair to the KC, they say that the test is designed for people who don't want to be "competitive" with their dogs (meaning, entering tests and trials), but who still work their dogs on shoots and want a measure of their dog's standard.

Which is the reason it's designed around a shoot, that being probably how most working dogs are worked.

I guess that, if my goal as a HPR owner was to have a HPR for a shoot , then this would be an excellent way of assessing things. But, if that was the case, I would have been training a whole lot differently from the beginning.

Allyson

Aha, so if I understand you correctly, you would decide if you wanted your dog to work on a shoot, compete in a gundog working test and/or compete in field trials.

Once you had decided on your course of action then it would be difficult to use a dog that had been trained for gundog working tests to work successfully on a shoot?

Or have I got it all wrong..............? Embarassed

josie

Well, kind of, but not exactly.

You could use your HPR which has been trained for trials and tests on a shoot, but you probably wouldn't want to do a retriever trial style shoot just because the steadiness factor is v demanding. UK retriever folk put a lot of emphasis on steadiness from a very young age and it's a major part of any retriever training I've been to. If a dog runs in on a test or trial, game over.

And the conditions under which they have to be steady under are quite incredible - walking a high drive dog for a long time without a retrieve, at heel off lead, while birds are coming down all around you and dogs are being sent from right next to you, demands an incredible amount of steadiness. There's no way you could just turn up and do that, without some incredible amount of training, and I do think it would be harder to achieve with a HPR instead of a lab, and that's not a cop-out excuse.

The thought of trying to heel Slate in those conditions would be like trying to stop a lorry going downhill at 100 mph without pneumatic breaks
Shocked

Also we just haven't trained for anything along those lines because it's not required for HPR tests/trials. The nearest we have needed to train, for HPR tests, has been about 50 yards off lead heeling, on our own, no distractions. And not going before I say "Fetch" from a static sit (not heeling), on retrieves, again with no other dogs around. And holding a point until I say.

But yes, of course you could use your HPR in a beating line, or picking up on a shoot.

lagopuslagopus

As far as I am concerned I want my HPR to be as steady as any retriever and I don't see why they shouldn't be. Also they should walk to heel under any conditions (not glued as tightly maybe). First and foremost my dogs are pets/working dogs but we are trialling as well now and I don't understand why the training would be any different from being able to work (under control) on a shoot.

Allyson

Hmm I have to say I would agree with you lagopus, I certainly would like to aim for that level of control which, after all, reflect "real life" or certainly "real" conditions on a shoot.........

Still my Weimaraner is not a "high drive" dog so perhaps I do not understand the level of difficulty required?

Helen

Helen

Helen

josie

Come on guys Shocked

After having watched a lab WT a few weeks back, I have to say I find it's a bit dismissive of labs and what they have to do actually. Shocked

You wouldn't expect a lab to quarter as well as a HPR.....

Of course, if someone really wanted to, I'm sure it would be possible to train a HPR to that level of steadiness - and very impressive that would be - however, why beat yourself up doing that, when you could be training your dog to run out on a blind retrieve to 100 + yards, handle well at a distance, cross obstacles and hold a line, hunt on retrieves only when given the Lost command, hold ground in the fall area without leaving it, sit instantly after the flush, handle in water, and so on with all the endless things a HPR actually has to do for tests and trials? If you can do all that and have time on your hands, then, sure, train for a walk up!

Whereas steadiness in a driven shoot situation, guns in the beating line, dogs at heel isn't a requirement for HPR trials or tests, and also isn't needed on your average shoot. Unless you're planning on disguising your dog as a lab and entering a retriever trial, why train for it?

Phew, well I know that I'll just keep plugging away at some of the things on that list and leave the driven shoot - because, to be honest, that list really is endless and I've seen and needed those behaviours a lot on tests. Never have needed "steadiness as in a retriever trial line up" yet though! But don't worry, the second I do, in any real or test situation, I'll be training for it Wink

munstyman

I'm still standing Exclamation

I thought that this would be a hot topic ( and so did you Langhaar Cool

). The trouble now is answering all the various replies in a constructive manner that keeps you all on track Rolling Eyes

Here goes...
There is no doubt that there are a few good hard working individuals trying very hard to keep working dogs high on the priorities of club committees, but we are struggling against an ever strengthening tide.
Many breeders of hpr's are still striving to keep the dual purpose of our dogs heritage alive in well constructed breeding programs. However you do not have to go to many Ch. shows to see cracks beginning to develope within some breeds. And history shows us that quite frankly in the world of dog breeding in this country that breeders tend to follow fashion rather than function, hence the splitting up of our native gundog breeds. I myself do not breed, and I find it somewhat confusing to hear the argument often raised that in order to do a days work the dog must first be put together right, so conformation is paramount, hence the reason for breeding nice looking well confirmed dogs. We have inherited well comfirmed dogs from there original breeders, they may have minor flaws which we have a duty to put right, or at least not make worse, but our breeds have already been made to function in the world of hunting, and they have the `Brains' to do this work. What this topic is about is ensuring we do not allow breeders to breed out the brains from the overall package.
With regard to testing the working abilities of our dogs, so that `proving' of dogs can be better used in breeding programs, My main concerns still revolve around the KC's attitude to our working breeds, and for the emphasis on competition. I totally agree that there are many owners of working gundogs that have no inclination to participate in Trials and GWT's and have good hard working dogs that do the business. I remember when the KC took over the GWT's in order to `provide structure and consistancy'. Previously these were run by breed clubs as they are today, however the emphasis was always on encouraging and educating new handlers rather the competitve element. Judges often helped new handlers to complete the test, gave them tips etc. Now judges are there solely to judge, ( it is a credit to the hpr fraternity that most judges still give help and advise after the event to any one who asks, some still do for puppies, and of course we are seeing more `unofficial' classes such as special beginners) But believe me I have started to see a change in attitude at fear of being reported to the KC, This IMO shows the tendancy of putting the establishment of dogdom before the needs of the dog.( and the needs of new handlers)
The incosistancy of tests is an issue that is getting worse, however we should be careful here, as if all tests run by the different clubs were the same, what would be the point of going to more than one Question

As test are run by the different breed clubs, is it not right that the design of the tests should reflect a bias to that breeds working method, style and function. And that the test should use vagaries in the type of ground on which the test is run Question

Personally I like to challenge my dogs against the other breeds and styles, and give them the experience of different grounds.
What I do not like is the increase use of `trick ' tests, which have a very tenuous link to the real shooting world, on which tests are supposed to be based. I am a firm believer that you do not have to make a test difficult to seperate competitors, you can make it simple and mark it hard.
Likewise, the tests, puppy/novice/open should be graded in an achievable manner, showing handlers an achievable training progress and goals to head towards. The big NO NO is of course the test that is set that could actually damage a dogs training, this is especially important in puppy and novice as this is where many new, less confident handlers are going to be found, and who will not have the experience and confidence to pull their dog out of such tests recognising that this is not good for their dog.
Is the Gundog Club grading scheme going to be any better Question

What I like about what I've seen so far, as well as the principle of grading against competition, is that there is an opportunity for ordinary working dog people to help form the tests, not just the `old hands' so new disciplines and new ideas can be incorporated and the full potential of our dogs can be tested.
It is a huge undertaking, and I humbly doff my hat to the organisers, as I am not sure they appreciate what our group of dogs are capable of, and of the characters they are about to encounter Shocked

I do not expect it to be perfect from the start, and suit everyone, but if like me you see the worrying trend of what the original article refered, you should be prepared to start being proactive and work on correcting the issue rather than whinging about what others are doing negatively to our breeds. (Incidently Pippa, I am already using your Basic Retriever test to settle the dogs at the start of my training sessions, works a treat)
I've now forgotten what the other posts said, so I'll take a break.
Peter

Helen

lagopuslagopus

josie

Helen, I think you misunderstand what is required from retrievers in their trials, because from my understanding of a retriever trial, none of the examples you've listed reflect what is required.

Retriever trials are very different to HPR trials and are different to at least any of the 3 shoots I've seen round here, including the one we will continue with this season. None of the shoots I've been on involve dogs in the beating line, but walking at heel off lead next to other dogs and sent on a retrieve v rarely. The labs on our shoot are either waiting on lead behind the guns to pick up or are the guns peg dogs and are sitting still, again usually on lead just in case. Retriever trials are designed to test a dog's steadiness to (in my opinion) a much greater degree.

I will try to get someone who trials their lab to come along and give us an overview of what a retriever trial is like.

Mike

josie

Well our NAVHDA dreams are dashed - here is their v short reply:

"We don't operate out off North America."

Mike

Oh well, just have to pinch all their good ideas and leave the not so good ones behind! Very Happy

Mike

If anyone is interested a description of retriever trials can be found here:

http://www.gundog-magazine.com/brtrials.htm

Helen

josie

Mike's link is really good in explaining what a retriever field trial is.

Shoots have dogs in the beating line, but as you say, they're running around and beating, not walking at heel off lead (Perhaps the "but" in my sentence was misleading - it should really be an "and".)

" imagine a field trial (not having been to one before) is reflective of a walk up, ie, shooting over your dog."

In a HPR trial the dogs are hunting, quartering and looking for game. In a retriever trial they're in line until on a retrieve.

At the end of the day, the question was - why didn't people enter this test, and I just explained why we didn't. Mike says he didn't enter for the same reason. I guess everything else is just subjective and down to training preferences and priorities. I've total respect for people who want to have lab-like steadiness, I just have other things I'm working on and we're not ready to enter that sort of test yet.

But we're only 2 people, so I doubt we're dragging down the national average of people not entering - why don't other people enter??

Mike

I would like to add that I fully intend to do it after Harleys trialling days are over but then I do like the fancy certificates the KC does! Cool

IIRC the people who have done the certificates this year will have a presentation at the CLA gamefair?

I believe Harleys sister Anna will be doing the perliminary assesment at some point in the future, as she is used in the beating line on her shoot (unfortunately the spaniels have learnt to pinch the game when Anna points, so she has now stopped pointing. Hopefully we can sort that out Rolling Eyes

)

BritAnnie

(unfortunately the spaniels have learnt to pinch the game when Anna points, so she has now stopped pointing.
That's EXACTLY why many HPR owners won't go on beating shoots. Including me. I LOVE seeing my dogs suddenly jump omto point - it's magic. And IMHO I doubt you can get it back, but hope someone out there knows how.
Annie

OneSpin

WOW- What a subject, just the sort of subject a forum is designed for. Due to this hot spell I have been looking through some of these topics that I have missed in the pass instead of going out training. Anyway there is no way I can remember all the post on this subject but........Helen and Peter have made some very good points. But just to get back to the original start of this topic the article from John Naylor - Pointer Polemic runs over into the next newsletter ..Starts Aug 2004 to Jan 2005 and finishes with a reply from Ernie Wheeler, and to be fair John's and Ernie's letters should both be read before you make any opinions.

I would like to make a general personal thought about Breeders, in my opinion too many of them breed for conformation with very little if any thought about lossing the workablility (the natural instincts) of the breeds, now any breeder who is reading this don't start jumping up and down. I'm sure that if they had a choice between the wonderful shape,colour etc or one that wasn't as good looking but had a history of being a very good natural hunter, they would choose the good looking one every time.

Another point being made throughout this topic was about WT. FT and working HPRs. Although I have been training dogs of many different breeds for 20 years this includes competing in Working Trials, this is my first Gundog let alone being my first HPR and a Spinone at that. I work my dog each winter on a small local shoot...picking up with two other dogs, one SS and a Lab between us we look after 10 guns and so are far enough apart not to interfere with each other to much. The SS is 11 years old and thinks that every bird down must be his. We only pick up game that falls behind the guns so most of them are runners.......HPRs are most suited to this type of work and mine has proven time and time again that his nose is far better than the other dogs when it comes to hunting down that difficult runner. These shoots are driven by beaters with all sorts of dogs and I would not want my dog to be upset by pointing game only to find other dogs come running in and flushing his points so we stay well away from the beating line. When the drives are under way I always slip his lead on and only take it off when he has to work.......this is not because he isn't able to sit there and wait for me to command him but it is to make sure that he never does runs in.
We have also competed in a few Working Tests and I agree that they show very little resemblance to working...from the few experiences that I have had, many times the hunting is on the same peace of ground that every other dog has hunted and peed on etc. The retrieving of dummies with no scent on them again is not like under working conditions. But saying all that I enjoy going along to them.........they are always a good day out and the people who give up their time to organise or judge at them have my warmest thanks. They seem to be more suited to me than the dog.
I had better sign off now as I am loosing the plot and will have to read all the messages again.......I think it's an age thing.

munstyman

OK guys, just re-read the thread and picked up a few more points ( I'm getting old too onespin Smile

)
The point about breeding from dogs with both working and good conformation qualifications I think is at the heart of the problem brought up in the original article. My point isn't about the method that the dog is worked, trialled or worked on a shoot, worked with bird of prey or as a stalking companion, but that it IS worked to show its ability BEFORE it is bred from. What is happening is that people are breeding dogs soley on looks and show qualifications with no regard to the ability of the dog to perform its inherant function, and this I believe is how breeds become split. It is to the credit of those that gave us these breeds of dogs that they have such a strong working brain and ability that we have yet to reach the point where several generations of show bred hprs still can be good working dogs when placed in the right environment and with the right handler, but be warned the cracks are appearing, and its people like us who work these dogs, whilst in a minority need to take this on board and do something about it.
The area of working tests being inconsistant is a valid one, however they are complex to organise and run and require huge goodwill on many working people to man and run. Remember, they were originally fun events run by breed clubs to encourage new owners into the working side, exchange information and generally have a good time during the long close season. Here again the competitive side has reared its head, and yet again followed by KC intervention, which has gone no way to improving dog work and handler learning. Those of you who are new to GWT should be aware that it was the KC who introduced giving zeros for failure in a test and even tried to stipulate marking of tests taking no account of what the various clubs regarded as important areas of their dogs work. It is to the credit of many `old' hands which has fought against these trends and continue to help and encourage all handlers when they judge. They do break up a test into component parts with marks for each section i.e. steadiness, dog work, retrieving to hand, handling etc. This means that if you fail a test and be un-eligable for an award, you can still see positive areas of your dog work, mind you, you will have to ask the judge for clarification (that piece of paper comes into it own then Mike) The KC would have you just given a zero which tells you just that you failed the test!
In all walks of life you are going to get people setting tests and judging who perhaps are not as good as others, that is why I go to as many as I can, I get a day out with my dogs, my dogs are tested against some of the best dogs and handlers in the country, I usually can learn something and I can assess the ability of those test setters and judges for future reference. At the end of the day working tests should only be an assessnent of your training to date, if a test appears beyond your dogs training PULL IT OUT.
It is good to see the thread has already moved on to what should we do about the problems of assessing working ability both with the present system of Field Trials, Pointing Tests and GWT's and the possibility of a future system of the Gundog Club Grading and/or Natural Ability testing based on European/ American lines refined to the UK working environment. My own view is that we should split the various disciplines ( Hunting, pointing, retrieving, tracking and perhaps working with birds of prey) With grades of achievement for each discipline. And having a grading system which also can combine the disciplines at a later stage. This could lead to the `Ultimate' qualification of a dog capable of doing all the disciplines to the highest standard, a goal worthy of our HPR breeds heritage, and their Versatiles label.
Over to you Smile

Peter

Mike

Reading through Peters comments about the KC in his last post and about all the things they try to stop the breed clubs doing, I was struck by a simple answer. Why does it have to be a KC run event to KC rules? There is nothing to go on your pedigree if you win, so if breed clubs want to do things their own way, no one is stopping them (the KC certainly can do nothing about it or the Competition Commission will have a few words to say about it. The agility world and the Gundog club have both proved the KC is a toothless tiger in this respect)

With respect I think the original purpose of an event is largely a red herring. Things change and evolve. The original purpose of dog shows was to select the most promising working dogs for breeding the next generation, it isn’t ever likely to go back to that now is it?

You either run working tests as a competition or for assessment. It shouldn’t try to be both, IMO. Certainly a lot can be learnt from competition but it must be consistently marked against a consistent standard otherwise nobody knows where they are and it becomes useless as a tool for improvement. Assessment is useful but you shouldn't have to go seeking the judge out after the competition if assessment is the goal, you should be assessed and get feedback after each test.

Peter, I am not sure judges who interpret things in their own way despite what they have been instructed to do by the people who write the rules are to be applauded. I think you have to look no further than this to see were the inconsistency in judging comes in.

Whilst I am new to working my dog and working tests (less than 2 years experience, although I’ve been in the breed for 8 years) I’ve competed in a variety of different competitions (in a number of non dog disciplines) over the years and been involved in assessments in a professional capacity and sometimes it takes a set of fresh eyes to point out some of the problems in a system. Although TBH none of the observations I have made are new and I hear them repeated at each WT I go to, when I go training etc.

I wonder if part of the problem is that different people want them to be different things, so the competitive types want a pure competition in its own right, some want a training day, some want a day out and some want a bit of everything! Maybe it’s a lack of clarity about purpose that causes some of the difficulty?

Penny makes an excellent point that the organisers of working tests are underappreciated and that we should all make the time to help out, I certainly intend to put my money were my mouth is and help out.
People have always gone out of there way to make me feel welcome at WT and all the volunteers who make these events happen have my utmost respect. I learn plenty at each test I attend.

BritAnnie · working and showing

Does anyone have statistics in any HPR breed as to the ratio of working only to show only dogs? I know a great number that do both but as I only show (my co-affix owners work my dogs for me) I obviously don't get to meet the working people (and I don't just mean trial people because I do know of those as Club Treasurer, and I know how many of my own breed are trialling)
Annie

munstyman

Just a quicky,
Mike, The present reality is the KC is god in uk dogdom. Iwas at the meeting where the KC had sent a representative to explain why they were getting involved in WT. To say the reception was hostile is an understatement and it was mainly from the retriever and spaniel fraternaty so we were not alone. The KC in its wisdom backed off from a direct approach and went the steathly way round, consultation was the word, but as we all know that means listen to all comments, ignore them and then do what they wanted all along.
I am not saying that the principle of what the KC try to do is all wrong, licencing events to a set standard is in effect what you seem to be requiring

josie

I'm just wondering - why, if there are so many problems inherent in the current system, and it's pretty much unchangeable due to the cogs and wheels of tradition and KC regulation, then why not work outside that system and set something up which becomes a valued alternative?

munstyman

Not gone yet Exclamation

Thanks Josie, now we are on the same page Cool

Peter

josie

Oh, I didn't realise that was what you meant Peter Smile

It would be slightly easier to set up a UK branch of another, already-existing, assessment scheme in another country, than to begin a totally new one for a few reasons.

One problem will be the scheme gaining "respect" from the HPR community and being considered worthwhile as a form of assessment, especially as the awards or titles would not be recognised by the KC. I think this would be largely overcome if it was already in existence and well-respected as a method of assessing HPRs in another country.

And secondly, setting up a new one would involve endless discussions, debates and argument (!) about what it should involve, how it should be marked, judged, and so on. A lot of this would be pre-decided if we used a scheme already existing elsewhere.

The question is - is it possible to have a UK branch of a foreign assessment scheme and which schemes would allow this?

Mike sent me this link yesterday, which is an American branch of the German scheme:

http://www.duckswild.com/jgv/

Here is more information about the US branch, this is based on GWPs but that's just because it's their website:

http://www.vdd-gna.org/testing_program.php

Here is the German website: http://www.jghv.de/

tashap

just to clear a couple of small things up HPR's are PERFECTLY suitable to the beating line and you DO require a great deal of steadiness in them. If you have the opportunity stick to a flank, your dog gets the chance to hunt their ground and point at which stage a spaniel or cocker can be brought in to flush if you don't want to - you can still do training whilst on your shoot.

I work six shoots and am a part time keeper now as well as those jobs I fill in for others when they are a man down during the season. Bonnie is a weimaraner and is in the beating line, very happily, as well as picking up both on driven and on rough shoots, she also has a grouse season and duck and goose flighting. None of this is for competition its partly how I earn a living during the winter.

The shoots that have dogs only on a peg are usually commercial and have large open grounds that make it easier to have people walking up with flags rather than dogs so that they don't push the birds up to quick. These grounds are ideal for HPRs but to be honest they can be more hassle than they are worth if their handlers have no control.

We have to be able to call our dogs in either to heel in some areas where the grounds are dense, near say for an example the pens where lots of birds still hand around, or within close distance of say 20 -30 yards within some of the woodland and sight distance in large open areas.

Usually the keeper will choose specific dogs for a specific task so for an example I work a flank rarely in the middle of the line except near the pens because bonnie is VERY steady and we have a good close working bond, she is used inside the pen alongside a cocker and a spaniel because I can call her off and push her on slowly so the birds don't panic and injure themselves on the fence. Working a pen is a slow task and requires alot of steadiness and close handling between handler and dog.

She is also used to quarter the larger open grounds because that is where she fulfills her role the best alongside a GWP, they cover the grounds quickly pushing the birds into an area where the spaniels are waiting to then push them on again for the guns. Its a military performance in some respects, one cock up from an unsteady dog who runs in and the birds go the wrong way completely ruining the drive.

Our dogs have to work part of the shoot in a driven line through an area of open field that has hazel and thicket bushes in the middle and you can't always see the dogs so you need to have good voice control, keep the line without one side going ahead of the other otherwise again it ruins the drive. My usual beating line has labs, springers, cockers, Weimaraner and a GWP with the odd terrier thrown in for good mix. Its a small shoot but has a good diversity in the type of ground available including a goose and duck flighting and of all things deer stalking too. Although obviously no deer shot on a pheasant shoot day.

I'm lucky on my shoot my keeper likes to see Bonnie point and actively encourages it, he will often send her in first into an area and give us parts of the shoot where the right flank needs to be worked first to bring it into line with the left so that the drive can be done as a line. Bonnie then gets the chance to point and I have a chance to do some training, I work two dogs alongside another handler who also works two dogs (three between us) the middle dog a lovely black cocker (the mum of my new pup) when bonnie is pointing if I don't want her to flush I call ruby in and she's good enough that she waits for the command to 'get in' when the bird goes up a call is given to the guns and bonnie is given the sit command.

Picking up is done by a specific team (Suzi B is a great example of this she works all three of her dogs on one of my shoots only picking up) if the guns have a dog with them then they are given the choice of whether to pick up or not if they do then YOU have to make sure that your dog honors their picking up and doesn't go in for the game themselves, so again alot of steadiness is required. We are given the opportunity to do both beating and picking up so its good practise for the dogs but they have to be able to be called away even if the bird drops by their feet.

Personally I don't like shoots without dogs they are boring for me and the ones I have attended tend to put down birds on the day which I do not agree with, this isn't always the case but on preference I prefer small shoots with low bird numbers, your dog has to hunt and the benefits are much greater for all concerned.

The KC's test is flawed not by the tests themselves although they are not shoot orientated but a mix of working test and simulated shoot but because of the way the tests are marked, some judges show preference rather than doing it on the merit of the dog and I don't agree with that.

If anyone wants to come along and experience a shoot day like mine I am sure given notice I can arrange it for you, I would say however my keepers do not agree with shock collars so you will not be allowed to use these under any circumstances on a shoot day.

Mike

Peter,
If you re-read my post I think you'll find we are already singing from the same hymn sheet Wink

Marjolein

Hmm, missed this thread and it seems I've missed all the fun. I don't know on what shoots you've been Jo, but in our shoot, obedience is expected from the dog. No matter how high drive a dog is, it should be able to walk to heel at all times. I fail to see why this should be a lab thing.
If you want to achieve something in FT's or WT's, obedience is the key word, no matter what. You can never achieve anything with a high prey drive dog who is not obedient.

josie

Like I said:

BritAnnie · walking at heel with distractions

I'm with you, Josie. Brittanys in particular are known for wanting to be first at everything - we have car stickers that say "brittannys do it first and ask questions after". Thsi applies to heelp work on the lead and quite often off teh lead too. They have to be in front. And if their is a prospect of hunting - forget it! They are basically hunting machnes. The only person I know of in the country to get a Brittany at heel is Rory Major and I have yet to hear his secret.
Annie

Helen

OneSpin

I'm with you Helen. The shoot that I pick up on has a right motley crew on the beating line with all manor of dogs.......all very nice people but some of their dogs leave alot to be desired in the control dept and I'm sure if my dog was in the line it would soon be ruined. I think we are better of behind the guns picking up the odd bird. No one on this shoot had heard of HPR's before I came along and only a few of them know understand what these dogs are capable of. I was asked at the end of the season to come on a walk through with a select few........they had slowly become impressed with his work on runners and were dying to see him point and shoot over an HPR, but he was taken ill so we missed it, still there is always next year to convert them over to HPRs.

Pippa · HPR folk

tashap

actually bonnie was the first hpr on the shoot the gwp came later and is the rescue of a spaniel man who saw him being beaten and stepped in, he's a gundog trainer so just kept him on. So ina word NO they are not knowledgeable about HPRs I am and I don't do anything I don't think she is capable of, neither do I allow them to wreck my dog hence why I work a flank. If you work a flank then you get more than just your beat and you don't get the spaniels running in because they tend to stick to the middle and are called off if they go to far into my beat. Solves the problem.

I made a point of going and speaking to my keeper in advance, took a days rough shooting with him before he would let me on the shoot in the first place so he could see what my dog was like and fortuntely for me bonnies consistancy has paid off. Jo bonnie is now a VERY keen hunter its took a while for her to switch on (well she is a gunalt, what a load of coblers) but believe me she is very switched on now and fast well she pastes the competition in the scurries Laughing

Heel work is important that doesn't mean it has to be stuck to your foot but at least by your side, as you know bonnie heels slightly in front of me or I can't see her and walking in a line is something we did at basic puppy training, its a basic command and I was told off for not getting it right before letting her loose on game, in otherwords running before I could walk in my haste to get anywhere Embarassed

I tend to put her lead on her if I am not sure she won't break and that is more than acceptable - its not a competition you'll also find this is what most people do and the dogs seem to appreciate the break.

If you've seen Mar's dogs you will know that they are very keen hunters and also very fast, they have the titles and the working experience to prove it including the german tests so she has a good working knowledge on this subject. If you can get her to give you a training session your very lucky Cool

I know I learnt heaps.

MC

Problem is, most of the breeders are show people.
Show people will put winning above working.
If a dog of a particular breed does very well at shows and produces nice looking pups it will be used by many breeders. I doubt that questions will be asked (or answers even able to be given) about the strengths and weakness's of said dogs field work. Going by my country if a dog points a sparrow it has "working abilities", or is "very birdy".

I am sure you would not be able to set up a branch of NAVHDA in UK anyway, they do things with birds that wouldn't go down well in UK.
For this reason I had to adapt the tests for NZ.

Here is our website. If anyone really would like to see the test regs they can email me, my address is shown on the website.
www.nzvhdta.co.nz

Also, the inherent abilities of the dogs is what is of far more importance than training. Certainly in the higher tests (and nzvhdta only go to Intermediate 16 - 30 months) obedience is required but serious training shows only the ability of the trainer. In USA lists you will read of dogs that "cannot take the pressure" this seems to mean that the dogs that cannot handle the forceful training methods are not bred from. So you can end up with uncooperative dogs that are being bred from and the more sensitive that just need a little more thought put into their training are scraped. These dogs that would fit into a family's life much better than a hardheaded self hunter. It all becomes again a competitive thing, and to truly set up a system where dogs are graded on first their natural ability/aptitude you must make it non competitive. To do this whomever sets the tests up must set the regulations in cement, because I can assure you there will be people wanting to change the system to suit their dog(s). And your judges must be hunters who love all the HPR's not fixated on their own breed, and compare other dogs to how their own dog hunts. There are differences in hunting style in dogs within one breed that don't make them better or worse, just as long as they fulfill the test criteria.

I have found that the breeders generally do not want to test their pups, which they continue to advertise no doubt as sound working prospects (based on ?).
Those that do wish to test their dogs and pups are a few breeders who concentrate on working ability (and they may show as well) and these have been mostly GWP and Vizla owners with GSP back there which I would have thought would be up the front for being tested as more are bred.
Recently a GWP litter was advertised as dam passed 6 out of 7 nzvhdta test with full marks. Now that has to tell the prospective pup owner something useful.

The main idea behind testing is the NA tests where a litter may be graded to give the breeder information to plan future breedings where strengths and weaknesses of parents can be taken into account.
It is not really about the adult dogs that can pass the hardest tests, it is about producing pups that given the opportunity can become satisfactory all around hunting dogs and pass this on to their progeny if bred from.

Marg

Marjolein

Jo, if you don't find it necessary that Slate does the perfect heelwork during a day like that, why bother changing it? I just wanted to point out that it is unfair to say this has nothing to do with HPR's and everything with labs. That just doesn't make sense to me really.

Helen

Tasha, can I just say one last thing about hpr's on shoots. I would never take any of mine on the shoots that I am involved in. That would be the fastest way to wreck my dog. I have seen hpr's worked on them and it has wrecked them. I imagine that these shoots are the norm throughout the country. I think it was Guy Wallace who said that beating ruins hpr's and I'll go with him on that one - on certain shoots. I'm not saying it can't work because I know it can but I'll stick to using spaniels in the beating line.

Helen

BritAnnie

Marg
In the UK HPR breeds have not split like other gundogs, so many of the breeders work their dogs as well as showing them, or have them trained/worked by others. My Brittanys always have been and always will be dual purpose, although perhaps not Field Trialled. But then some people say that a FT dog is different to a normal working dog.(don't shoot the messenger it's only what I have been told - my late husband trialled ours, not me)
Anne

Allyson

Well it was interesting reading the posts. All I can say is that from reading various newsletters on field trials, working tests etc I was under the impression that HPRs could do the lot and that Suzi Burton for example appears to be able to compete successfully in field trials, gundog working tests AND work her dogs as a shooting dog, peg dog, beating and picking up dog.

Not to mention of course working in England, Scotland and abroad.

Hence why I appeared to be confused about dogs not being able to cope with the differing scenarios.

As I might possibly dip a toe in the water in GWT I was interested in various views of both the experienced and those somewhat less so.

Edited to say:

I had forgotton (imagine Richard!) Embarassed

that Richard also passed the KC preliminary gundog test with his lovely Weim Bay and has won a Graduate test and is now in Open and so it appears that some people can successfully train their dogs to meet either requirement.

Helen

Guy Wallace has a section on driven shooting in his Versatile Gundog. He says that hpr's on formal driven shoots are taught to fulfil one of the roles of the hpr and ignore it's real role in life - hunting a large area of ground that contains relatively little game. If the hpr owner is a gun or a picker up, they train their dog to be like a labrador as a non-slip retriever. If it's on the beating line, it's trained to quarter within a limited range like a spaniel. He goes on to say that hpr's don't like working too close to the handler with the large number of pheasants under their nose.

Discuss Very Happy

Helen

tashap

it was guy wallace that suggested putting bonnie in the beating line in the first place at a seminar to help with her hunting drive... best advice given so far. All that crap about her being a gunalt and not hunting was exactly that CRAP, she just need extra time and the right exposure. Hers peds are actually full of american field trial and dual champs that both worked and earned their show positions.

Suzi B doesn't work her dogs in the beating line she prefers to pick up, she does however do grouse counting several times a year which still requires being in a beating line and hunting which she does very successfully. She is ALSO very successful in the german tests which few of us have done, in my opinion that is the test we should be working towards because its all about the dog...even the manwork test.

Not saying anything about the certificate Richard got other than the fact that most of the people entering that day walked away in disgust including Suzi B based on the behaviour of the judges and the way the test was being run. Bonnie and I failed prior to the end test on a blind retrieve down to my training not her ability.

Guy Wallace used to shoot over his weimaraners doing walked up days if I remember correctly before he changed over to GWP's. He also used to use birds of prey and ride horseback to hunt with his dogs.

I made a decision about bonnie she is not suitable for trialling and neither right now am I but she has to earn her keep and as I am still reluctant to breed (even though I do need another bitch myself so am having to consider it and have made enquiries) she earns her keep in the beating line and picking up doing what I feel a hunting dog should be doing. The only difference is that I have made very sure that she knows the difference between the tasks expected of her during a shoot day and the tasks expected of her during a non shoot day, they have brains they can tell the difference.

Allyson you are absolutely right they can do it all given the opportunity and the right training (where I am sadly lacking) but YOU have to be the one that dictates what you will and won't do with your dog, I won't work the centre of a beating line because then bonnie doesn't get a chance to work her beat or to point but as I have said if you can arrange to work a flank especially one that needs bringing up then you have good opportunity to see your dog pointing and to make sure that they have the opportunity to flush or to honor another dogs instruction.

At the end of the day you have to make your own minds up but personally we are having alot of fun doing what we do, she is worked and that was what I set out to do, I haven't talked about it or read it in a book I've gone out and done it.

Oh and I am now the proud owner of a cocker spaniel who will take over the beating line this year so bonnie can be used for picking up Very Happy

I know we can all be converts Laughing

" HPR Breeds in the UK are in a mess"

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