cressy
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A question.....Today has yet again highlighted an issue I have with both Mugi and Chase that is perplexing me.
Neither dog is keen to return a dummy to me, this can be canvas, fur or with wings - they run out well but will either drop short or run rings round me, (as you can see I have keenness for dummies back). Cold and warm game is different though for them both (and lets face it they are both novice in terms of experience if not exactly similar ages  ), if they have game in their gobs they will bring it to me and there is no reluctance to hand it over.
The only possible reason I can see is that they view the game retrieves as a means to an end and getting the goods back to me mean they can go hunt again.
Does anyone else have any ideas as to why I am stuck on this? I am apparently not threatening in my demeanour when trying to take a dummy, I will drop down to the ground, turn away, sit on a stone or tree, walk awy calling the dog as in a game. I have toyed with the idea of dropping a dummy into a gamey area but I have a horrible premonition that the dummy in that instance will be totally blanked.
I want to work them on dummies otherwise I will have to convert my garage into a massive deep freeze to be able to manage enough game to keep them happy and training.
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windem bang
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Sue, I had a very similar problem with Buck at about the same age Chase is now. I had a strong suspiscion my problem had originated with Dales' "training" methods. Knowing this did not help much, the damage had already been done. In Bucks case he would drop or mess about with dummies or with game, he would not only circle me, he'd tear off around a field with his prize.
End result was the same as you are experiencing now. Apart from beginning to use treats, something you know more about than I do, I tried several other things to get him to retrieve to hand.
Are you asking now or have you asked in past training for your pup to do anything more than just simply put the dummy into your hand ? Some form of obedience present perhaps ? A fair number of dogs resent doing this and problems start to crop up.
This is not an easy question to answer, I still get dropped retrieves from Buck so I've got a cheek really , commenting on your problem. I did all sorts of things to try to cure his dropping of dummies and general mucking about. One difference between Buck and your dogs is that he is jealous or possessive of his retrieves, it doesn't sound like Chase is.
If you remember I eventually used a fishing rod and reel to give Buck the idea I was still in control of him during a retrieve. This worked pretty well for Buck but I don't think it would for Chase.
Does he behave in the same way in the house or other confined space ?
Are you giving retrieves in interesting areas or in boring areas to a dog ? Doing retrieves only with Chase for a couple of weeks might help if that was the ONLY time he was allowed off lead. If he wants to do something, then retrieving is IT.
Try a really boring place like a very short grass public park for retrieving, there is nothing there other than the dummy to interest the dog. If that fails go the other way and make the retrieves more interesting/difficult. This worked well for a cocker spaniel bitch of Chases age just last week. I'd been told she was near enough a non retriever, all she would do was pick up a rolled up sock. She would just as quickly drop it again , she was bored !!! In just the one training session of one hour her lady owner managed to get this little bitch hunting cover for a full sized dummy and even doing 40 yard memories with her. By the end of the session the little bitch was going flying out for a dummy and galloping back into her owners arms. This bitch had been bored silly with easy short throws given by a static and completely visual handler.
Without seing Chases behaviour and yours it is difficult for me to help which is why I've rambled on here. I had been hoping someone else would come up with a positive answer and a good solution so I waited a while before posting this not too helpful spiel !
When Chase was younger, 4 -6 months , was the delivery better then? Has the problem started since you began to take him to gamey places ?
I described to you in Bridgnorth last year what I'd had to do to get Vicky to retrieve dummies. It was a very awkward way to go about it but it would probably work for both Chase and Mugi , I really do hope you don't need to follow that route. I could not do it myself nowadays, I don't have the shooting anymore.
If I were you I would be concentrating all of my efforts on Chase. Much as I love old Mugi he has fun just hunting and being out with you, I would not trouble him now about retrieving. Sorry I can't help more. It rather puzzles me that C.T. is not helping this particular problem, a variation of it has helped me a great deal with Buck.
I'll be back in Bridgnorth at the start of September this year, if I see you then I will expect Chase to be doing retrieves the full length of the entire park we last met in !
Good luck and stick at it .
Bill T.
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guy
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When i was first encouraging Topaz to retrieve I used to set up a pair of trestles with a board on them, this producesd a table about 2ft above the ground; he hopped on to this to start. He was sent for the retrieve and on return had to jump back onto the 'table' Hey presto he couldn't run around . When out in a field i used a straw bale as a table substitute.
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Bareve
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This is quite a common problem once they have had warm and cold game and I too was sitting back to see what others would say as I'm also not that versed at to what to suggest
I suppose to re-iterate to the time that one of mine went off retrieving (his was cold game) I let him have 5/10 mins running in a fenced field to empty out and then in the same field set up a fairly long seen and sent him for it. The first day he went out, sniffed it and came back with nothing so I said nothing but popped his lead on and walked home - no talking, telling off or anything - silence, and I put him back into the kennel (out during the day and in at night so he isn't a true kennel dog).
Next day repeated it and he went out and picked it up and brought it back (not to hand but that was worked on at a later date) so I made huge fuss and let him go hunting - the reason he thinks he's been put on this earth!
Kept this pattern up for about a week and then started to introduce it into his normal run but every other day and then every couple of days just so he didn't get fed up with doing retrieves.
The other thing I've just thought about but not tried it so I don't know if it would work but how about a dummy off a launcher? All of mine love dummies and will retrieve them for as long as I want to do retrieves but the increased desire on their face when I fire up the launcher is very noticeable - they can't wait to go and get one of those?
I certainly wouldn't put a dummy into a gamey area yet as that will just want to make them continue hunting and blank the dummy but I would try and make them a bit more difficult. Also are you doing seens or doing memory's and I also find the dogs prefer memories and as you are walking them back at heel before you turn they can't wait to turnaround and go for them?
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guy
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Good one Sharon - Dummy off a launcher - mine love it. I know Bill has advised against it as he feels it encourages running in.
the puppy when she first had a launched dummy went completely dulally with it - just got so excited.
Another trick that works is to fire the launcher or a starting pistol close up to the dummy, so it acquires the powder smell, that works a treat as well.
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Helen S
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As Sharon says, use hunting as the reward; for Chase - retrieves first, hunting after he'll soon get the message. But does Mugi really need all that? Of course make it as fun as possible too!
Helen S
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cressy
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Thanks everyone.
Trying to answer questions, he (Chase that is) has never been asked for anything other than dummy to hand (or even to my vicinity) from any direction. When he has picked up anything else he has always been acknowledged and thanked for it if he has brought it me and ignored with no pursuit if he has run off with it.
He is definitely enjoying memory retrieves better than any other and in fact he is keen now to get the dummy but the return is terrible as he prats around, he wants to then play with said dummy and I am torn as to whether to come down hard (as much as I can  ) on him and possibly turn him back off retrieving completely or to just keep trying to encourage him back to me.
I will try to set up a situation as you describe Guy as a start as it is the type of thing he likes and it may well bear fruit.
Equally Sharon, I still use the cause and effect method and certainly I want to use hunting as a reward for dummy work. Being a Brittany though I have a feeling that might be a battle of wills before the penny drops!
Yesterday the failed retrieve with a dummy was followed within half an hour of the most lovely present (to hand) of warm rabbit with no messing about which was rewarded with more hunting so I know he can do the job!!
Bill, to reassure you . Yesterday we were out for 3 hours. Mugi in that time had a bimble and three retrieves. For the other 2.5 hours Chase had all the work (Mugi away in the car), some was just managing himself as a spectator when the other dogs worked but he himself did 2 sessions of work, one control and 'failed' retrieve and the other a lovely hunt 'with me'. The only reason I want to get Mugi delivering better is the fact that if he is slightly more reliable he is to be allowed to pick up when the season starts so I need him to understand direction a little better. He enjoys the retrieving so it is not a chore for him, his delivery is a different challenge as he heads straight back but just slinks in to me reluctantly. He will never be coerced to do anything he doesn't want to.
Chase has started a structured training regime so he has my undivided training time, the others get trained during walks etc not in my precious training slots.
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Bareve
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| guy bagshaw wrote: | Good one Sharon - Dummy off a launcher - mine love it. I know Bill has advised against it as he feels it encourages running in.
the puppy when she first had a launched dummy went completely dulally with it - just got so excited.
Another trick that works is to fire the launcher or a starting pistol close up to the dummy, so it acquires the powder smell, that works a treat as well. |
Bill is probably right but I'd rather deal with enforcing a steadiness problem than trying to get a reliable retrieve. Last year my young dog was dynamite off after a launcher but now as much as you can see every bit of him twitching in readiness he will wait for the fetch command
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Bareve
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| cressy wrote: | Thanks everyone.
He is definitely enjoying memory retrieves better than any other and in fact he is keen now to get the dummy but the return is terrible as he prats around, he wants to then play with said dummy and I am torn as to whether to come down hard (as much as I can ) on him and possibly turn him back off retrieving completely or to just keep trying to encourage him back to me.
Equally Sharon, I still use the cause and effect method and certainly I want to use hunting as a reward for dummy work. Being a Brittany though I have a feeling that might be a battle of wills before the penny drops!
Chase has started a structured training regime so he has my undivided training time, the others get trained during walks etc not in my precious training slots. |
Having read the "update" I would say that Chase was more keen on any form of retrieving than Calvin was when I introduced the method I talked about earlier.
If Chase does present the dummy to hand I would be tempted to "try" a bit of a "prod" tactic when he is messing. Obviously you know that you have already tried but how about when he starts to mess either re-enforce his recall with a stronger recall whistle, or a firm/grumbly "oi" to make him stop what he is doing and as soon as he does that big encouragement to continue back with the dummy - does that make sense? We had one that used to hold the dummy by the toggle and deliberately swinging it from side to side so when she used to start I'd grumble at her till she stopped swinging it and looked to say "what is the matter with you" and then I called her in. She did stop it after a while. Providing you immediately switch from grumbly to welcoming I can't see that this will make him back off his retrieves as it's a split second change of voice followed by the welcoming voice/whistle command.
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windem bang
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I agree with the above post from Sharon, I too would berate a misbehaving dog then instantly change both my tone and my manner at the slightest sign of improvement. It needs very good timing though or you end up rewarding for the wrong thing and correcting for the right thing !!!
Dummy Launchers - The reason I do not use mine often is not because it might make the dog unsteady but because a dogs familiarity with it would then disbar its use as a valuable tool to train steadiness. --- My dogs, never having seen or heard one in action, really do believe it is a real gun that has just shot a real bird.
I do not introduce the dummy launcher until a pup has had enough game retrieves to want or to begin to run in. Since I have little or no game to work on and nowadays do not even own a gun , the dummy launcher is invaluable to me for that purpose - my dogs will try to run in on it since they really believe a bird has just been shot. I get the chance to make run in situations and to correct them. Even out of shooting season.
This kind of retrieving training is pretty near worthless if the dog has been allowed to retrieve dummies from a launcher. The dog then knows it is NOT a gun and NOT a real bird.
I am not in any way against others using the launcher for its intended purpose but in my situation and for my purposes - my way is better for me.
Bill T.
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cressy
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Well, we have started having some success although I have had to take him right back to basics  . I am working him for his breakfast in a long narrow passageway by the side of my house.
After a few days of getting the picture he is now sitting for me to throw the dummy, running out when asked and hurtling back to me where I kneel on the ground with one hand out. If dummy is popped in hand then he gets chicken wing, if dummy is spat out or there is any hesitation in return he gets popped away for half an hour then out to try to earn his food again.
He has a choice to bugger off down the passageway and round a corner (although there is nothing there but a dead end) or to try to dodge past me as I am now not blocking his return entirely.
My next stage is to put a verbal command in for the present and then I will start to stand in this passageway. Only once I am achieving 100% will I move to him earnign his breakfast in the garden then slowly I will increase the distraction of where he returns said dummy.
I am determined not to let him give me the run around again so I am having to put on the back burner giving him longer/more complex retrieves in open ground but I hope this intensive concentration on delivery with high reward will bear fruit.
As he now has the idea of what I want I will not be doing these retrieves every morning btw so he won't learn a 'breakfast' routine.
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cressy
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Thought I would update you that in my slow way I am getting there and am ready to move to the park with this. The passageway introduction started well and he got the idea quickly. The garden proved more distracting so we had an immediate verbal correction and masses of praise and chicken wing when he got it right, a total prat session saw him in his crate hungry and he was that much keener a couple of hours later.
I have now dropped the reward level in the garden so a present to hand is getting a slice of economy chicken roll, a drop at my feet get a disappointed sigh and if he then picks up the dummy he gets a pat and verbal praise on present but not as much as a first time correct.
He has not been a prat at all for the last few sessions although I do have to drop to one knee to take the dummy, I think my body language must become threatening if I stoop to offer my hand so he hesitates to come in (even though he has never been beaten whatever the provocation  ) and with a bad back kneeling is better for me too.
We need more work on his overall clicker skills I found too, I tried with the clicker but he was spitting the dummy in anticipation of reward. He is working better for a 'good' and reward than when I clicked and rewarded.
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Helen S
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Interesting what you say about the open hand Cressy. I have found the same and now hold my hands together in front of me with palms to thigh so I can pat my leg subtly to encourage Liesel in if necessary. Once she has sat I then gently reach down and rub her chin before I take the dummy/bird, then she gets her treat or another rub.
Helen S
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guy
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I was taught the idea of stroking the head and back of neck, also chest. A gentle pat on the nose leather helps. All this with verbal praise before taking the dummy. Easier to demonstrate than write about
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DesO'Neile
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Slight change of emphasis.
Is there any Ardkinglass in you deerhound?
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cressy
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Hi Des, yes Brice does Ardkinglas scattered through both sides of him.
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