Hello
My husband has just started doing a bit of rough shooting. He's really enjoying it and is thinking of getting a gundog.
We have two pet dogs (not gundog breeds) which I compete with in Obedience.
My husband is a complete novice when it comes to dog training but he would see that the dog was trained properly either by himself or with a professional trainer.
Is there any particular HPR breed that would suit a complete novice or should he go for a Lab?
He has seen Large Munsterlanders at Obedience competitions and discover dogs and likes them but he's not sure one would be suitable.
To complicate matters we also have a couple of cats.
Thanks for your help
Helen
Welcome to the board Ann. There are a number of large munsterlander owners on here who will be along to help soon. I have 2 gwp's.
Helen
stubournazza
Hi Ann,
I have a Large Munsterlander (Schmurf), just 15mths old and he joined 3 cats and 2 dogs when he came to live with me as a baby and has not been a problem with either
I dont shoot, but LM's do well at rough shooting as do several breeds of HPR's. I think if your husband is into rough shooting then a lab would not be totally suitable - I am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Munsties are easy to train, biddable and forever wanting to please and they know their gundog stuff. My poor little man had to pass his Natural aptitude test with nothing but hindrance from me
I guess though as with every breed if you are wanting to work then pick the lines carefully. I, personally like german blood in my Munsties (she says only having the one!!) as german dogs are bred to work and have to pass working tests or they can't be used to breed from. Schmurf's dad was german and the mum of my next pup is german. The breeders are exceptionally helpful and you can always pop along to the club shows to speak to people - I did.
However, I do obedience with mine and was very impressed when he did a 'C' class h/w round including positions on the move - he did 2, sit and down totally spurprising me, I haven't taught him the stand yet. Chances are he was no where near perfect but he kept going and did fast and slow pace as well and left about turns - alot of stuff I haven't done with him yet. His first show is on saturday at Cumbria agricultural show -doing breed and obedience -blesss him!! Can't you tell I am besotted by him
munstyman
I'm keeping quiet on this one
Christine W
Not like you Peter!
I have had Munsters since the end of 1987 and yes, they are great dogs but they aren't for everyone. You either have one and never know how to 'work' them and so you never have one again, or you have 1 and then possibly 2, maybe 3 etc!
They can be stubborn, they can be noisy, they can chew, they can have cloth ears etc etc. They love dirty puddles, foxes poo, shed that b&w hair everywhere when they moult
Some like to have dogs with recent German blood infusion, but they can be a little bit more 'spirited' and I speak from experience! Mine have a good blend of German & older British lines and I'm very pleased with that.
I introduced a cat to my group 2 years ago, ok the cat has a fantastic temperament, but besides one chasing incident, I've not had a problem at all. Infact when Zelli is calling, it's my male LM Curtis she lavishes her attention on!
stubournazza
Oh yeah -I was that made up with the work that he did over the weekend that I forgot about all of those minor faults. Hmm, muck is the thing, last time he went for a bath due to excessive smelliness and people complaining!! he took 2 shampoos and still wasn't white he is off tomorrow in preparation for a show saturday and me thinks it will take more than 2 washes this time
He is noisy with strangers out & about and at home - though everyone ignores him but once hello has been said he quietens down - some are much noisier than him.
Schmurf is not what I would call spirited - but he does get at least 3 good walks a day and training 2 or 3 times a week, he is keen but biddable and doesn't like to upset me -aarrh. However, like I said he is my first munstie - Christine is much more expereinced with the breed.
Oh and a real test is to go visit one or more at home!! If you can cope with the barking, mauling, constant hugs and movement then you are half way there
Ann
Barking
Hi Thanks for all your replies.
The only problem I can foresee is the barking. We live in the countryside but we do have two close neighbours who are good friends and we wouldn't like to upset them. Can you train them not to bark by using the speak command and then rewarding when quiet.
How would they respond to a training collar - one that sprays water under te chin. We found it worked with one of our dogs but not at all with the other.
Would an LM be OK for a novice gundog trainer?
Thanks again
Christine W
If you are prepared to put the work in with a Munster then I would say you would be ok as a novice but obviously meeting someone like Peter or Karen (Both on this board), who've had the breed for years, to get tips on working your LM would be your best bet.
I sold one of my last litter to a family who'd only had a Munster X before and they took Purdey to HPR training and she's come along very well in working tests.
münstermanager
Hi Ann
Welcome to the Board.
Firstly, why does your husband think that LMs would not be suitable? Is it something someone on a shoot has told him?
Christine, I'm sure that Peter will re-appear when the dust has settled!!!
Ann, lots of people say that LMs are not suitable for novice dog owners or novice working people. Münsters, like most HPRs, are very clever dogs and they are able to exploit if necessary or indeed possible. Having said that, I've seen novice owners do very well with LMs in all sorts of fields. My view, and I'm sure that many may disagree, is that it depends very largely upon the abilities of the handler. Sure, experience in general (and I'm talking in a non working capacity here) is very helpful, but I've seen very experienced people, in all fields, who are completely incapable of reading their dogs or are not sensitive to their dog's temperament. I've seen novice people who are very capable of reading their dogs & who are sensitve to their dog's temperament. Having said that, your husband may find it difficult to train an LM for the first time in an environment he is not that sure of himself, certainly without professional HPR help. However, because it may not be the easiest thing in the world does not make it unattainable and I'm sure that it could be very rewarding. It may be worthwhile bearing in mind that it takes a while to train an LM to work, I believe - there are other posts on here which give an indication ...
LMs take a lot of time and energy. They can drive one nuts, but they can be so unbelievably rewarding. I had my first one 10 years ago now and I just cannot imagine life without one.
I always thought that LMs were ideal for the rough shooter. As well as seeing an LM in the home, it would be a good idea for your husband to go out with someone who rough shoots with one a Münster to see how they work and if he feels one of these dogs would be right for him. I'm sure Peter & Karen could point you in the right direction.
LMs are very adaptable dogs. They are to be found visiting people in hospital and patrolling farmyards as guard dogs - not the same dogs!! Some are more biddable than others by all accounts. From what I can gather, Tina's Schmurf comes from a litter of biddable dogs from a very biddable sire, not to mention a brilliant dam. Tina, I actually thought I was reading about a lab from your first description! Wow....
LMs certainly have a reputation for barking and my last one did live up to it. However, he usually had a reason to bark; he just found it unrewarding to stop. I did teach him to sssshhhh and he did so, but within a few minutes he'd bark at something else. However, at the time, we did have noisy boys and screaming kids visiting within this section of the village along with a GSD who barked a lot and shredded the fence if my dog were in that area of the garden. My dog barked when strangers came up the shared drive or to our door, but he didn't bark at people out and about on walks or at other dogs.
In contrast, our current LM was so quiet I was actually worried! Another LM taught him to bark and he now barks if anyone comes up the shared drive (including Ian & I), but stops after about 3 barks once he knows who it is. I encourage him to bark at comings and goings and praise him. I've not taught him to speak and to be quiet yet, but I must do so very soon as I'm expecting the next LM pup to be a barker. If my neighbours dog barks when patrolling the lane and drive and my dog is inside, he barks and rushes out to see if there are invaders to repell. If he's outside, he doesn't bother as he knows and he doesn't bark at strangers out and about or at other dogs even if they bark at him.
I have heard of many who bark for the sake of it and many who bark when left, but I've also heard of many in multi dog households who don't bark at anything as they've been taught not to do so. I've a friend with an LM who is susceptible to barking when left alone in the house as she was shut in the boot room as a young dog and the house was burgled; she never really recovered from it. Kennels is quite another matter. Even our young dog loves the barkfest of kennels, he cannot wait for the gate to be opened to check himself in!!
Good luck with whatever you and your husband decide.
Best wishes
Sue
Ann
[quote="münstermanager"]Hi Ann
Firstly, why does your husband think that LMs would not be suitable? Is it something someone on a shoot has told him?
Hi Sue
Basically he doesn't know. We've always been very careful in selecting which breeds we choose. This is because we want to be as sure as possible that we get the right dog both for us and for the dog.
That's why we did loads of research before we got our current two dogs and why we're trying to do the same this time around.
The HPRs we've seen apart from Munsters are GSP, Weims, and Viszlas.
Neither of us were keen on Weims and GSPs but we did like the look and temperament of Munsters and to a lesser extent the Viszla we saw.
Basically we just want to be be sure that there's nothing that would make a Munsterlander completely unsuitable for us before we start visiting them at home or before he goes out shooting with one.
Thanks for your help
Ann
stubournazza
Hi Sue
A lab!!!! Just told the fella and he is gutted and has gone to have a roll around the garden
I really liked your post summed up Munsties really well from my limited experience - but again even in the 13mths of owning one I couldn't imagine having another breed of dog. Schmurf is out of Georgia who is as you describe and he is everything that I want in a dog, he has that working edge and yet is such a pleasure to live with -even during his most annoying times he makes me laugh. He has just recently learnt that he can blow bubbles in water The times he barks are:
1- strangers approaching - dog or human - stops when he has said hello
2 - when calling swallows out to play
3 - tracking deer
4 - getting my other dog to play
Anne - maybe another breed you might want to consider is the German Longhair - not sure how noisy they are though you would have to ask someone who owns one. They sounded a really nice type in the recent supplement in Dog World or Dog's today paper.
Similar in nature to LM's I think but not sure on their working abilities as I have never seen one work in any capacity. I had seen Munsties and Munstie X's work in obedience before looking further into the breed.
münstermanager
Advice - LMs,GLPs
Hi Tina
I'm really sorry. I had not intended to insult poor Schmurf. I hope he recovered from the shock and did well today. How did you get on?
Schmurf does sound quite wonderful and I love the idea of him enticing swallows out to play. An older LM taught Beecham to bark when he didn't get what he wanted, but we've just about got him out of that. Yes, he does occasionally bark at other dogs to get them to play, but we discourage it as he did the same to our cats and they don't like it very much! The Birman usually can control him by positioning herself in doorways and staring or lengthening her miaow, but then he sings to her (which is very funny) which he doesn't normally do. Our last LM sung to all visitors.
I didn't mention the yapping on scent as it's out and about, I don't know if it has a name but Cliff wrote a good explanation of it on the Small Münster site. One of the Prüfung tests is to follow an old trail and locate a carcass (I think) at the end. When they find the carcass there are 3 options & the handler must have declared which will be followed at the outset. One is to return to the handler and lead him to the carcass by the arm, I think this is called brindling. The second is to return to the handler with the leather tag on his collar in his mouth and the third is to remain in situ barking for 10 minutes, before upping the pitch. I think this is right. My German is a bit ropey these days, but I think I've read this somewhere in English. I've always thought, but I might be very wrong, that this is why they are vocal in general.
Oooh, you are living dangerously re GLPs working abilities. I believe they are really good working dogs, really good. I believe that they can be quite vocal too. If you or Ann want any further info, there is quite a lot on the Arany site (don't know if it's OK to link it here, but you can find it really easily) and more if you go onto champdogs, go into gundogs and then into GLPs or you could ask the oracles, they're on here as Langhaar. Their dogs are really fabulous, the new one looks a real cracker, but working homes only, I believe.
Ann, do go to a show. You will find people more than willing to talk about all aspects of LMs. We did that when we were first looking at the breed and everyone was so helpful. Some working people go to shows too. Whereabouts in the country are you? Or can you get to the CLA Game Fair in Romsey at the end of the month? Several working LM people are doing the Discover Gundogs thing there.
Best wishes
Sue
Best wishes
stubournazza
Hi
Schmurf did quite well today he got 2nd in his breed class - won't be entering mixed classes again -he was too interested in the girlies!!
He did well in his obedience losing only 8.5 in total which would have placed him about 10th out of 34. 2 of those he lost by going down in his sit stay. 2 he lost with a very off centre recall present -bless he was coming in so fast and decided he wanted to keep an eye on the judge and the people who were setting up the 'it's a knockout' competition immedietly outside the ring He lost 0.5 on his retrieve and 2 for heel on lead and 2 for heel off lead. the losses were down to slack areas in my training i.e. turns, set offs, presents and stays - tho he did his 2 min down stay. And I hadnt thought of proofing for 'its a knockout' but will make sure we start to train during the january sales
We met someone who has a munstie tho not with them today and they did comment that Schmurf was very laid back compared to theirs
Once finished in both rings he had a jolly good time retrieving dummies out of the river
His swallow enticing antics make him look quite mad as he just jumps into the air barking at the sky. Mainly done in winter as there are no swallows about then.
I have heard of the german tests and do believe they like their dogs to be vocal during a hunt, also have read that a few british like the vocals as they tend to be different depending on the prey and it means they know whether to look for fur or feathers. Schmurf is different - he is quiet on pheasant until it has flown, barks (high pitch) on deer and yips on rabbit!!
RE: the GLP's I think they look like smashing dogs - I just cant comment on what they work like as I haven't ever seen one work - they must be rarer than munsties
münstermanager
Hi Tina
Well done for both the breed class & the obedience. You must be very pleased. Yes, I guess one wouldn't think to proof for 'it's a knockout'!!!!
Beecham was standing outside a shop in Ullapool last year and we heard a passer-by say, 'oh look, that dog's very calm for a Münsterländer'. Most people are just shocked when I say Beecham is calm in comparison to my last one!
I do really love the idea of the swallows. Have you ever videoed it?
I actually was thinking of the tests in the light of general barking rather than being vocal during a hunt. I didn't know about the difference on prey - I'll have to listen to Beecham more carefully next time, but I'm pretty sure I haven't heard a difference but then I've always thought he only does it on fur. Actually, someone heard him the other day and asked if they could help me look for my injured dog. I said 'he's not injured, he's German and he'll be back in a second as I've just recalled him' whereupon there was an almighty crash and Beech arrived through the hedge rather than through the gap further up. Whoops. The chap looked mighty surprised particularly as Beecham looked like he was in camourflage gear with the amount of greenery hanging off him.
Again, sorry, I obviously misread your GLP comment. Don't know how many there are in the country. I don't think I've seen more than a handful.
As an aside, there are quite a few LMs around here (doing all sorts), but I've never bumped into any of them. The most LMs I've seen in one place other than at shows or the LMC working test, was in Oslo. We saw about 3 a day. One night there was a fire in a flat and everyone was out in a street - we saw an LM then too. It was very exciting. At the Munch museum, there were photos of the painter and his dog, Boy. He was an LM. A colleague of Ian's, who'd met our last LM, said that it probably explained Munch's painting 'The Scream'!!!!!!!!!
Have you proofed for someone shouting very loudly when Schmurf is doing obedience? I've just heard that one of the dogs I've not met, who is doing the Good Citizens with me this week, arrives with 2 handlers - one of them works him and the other shouts instructions from outside the field. No one has managed to shut him up!! I suspect it might be interesting.
Best wishes
Sue
stubournazza
Hi Sue
Not been on pc for a while. Was well pleased with the little man
Yep know the greenery thing - think they would make good dogs for the Forces only need to be covered in brambles and that long weed with all the little sticky blebby things
I will try to video the swallows it is good fun to watch. Love the comment about "the Scream" -so apt resembles my face as he comes out of a muddy puddle and heads towards me for one of those munstie hugs
We do alot of proofing with the dogs and that includes kids screaming and playing, an assistant teasing with food, toys, making strange noises doing strange walks - hmm starts to explain why so many people stop and stare Poor Schmurf even has to control himself around them swallows and rabbits and seagulls!!!
2 he lost with a very off centre recall present -bless he was coming in so fast and decided he wanted to keep an eye on the judge and the people who were setting up the 'it's a knockout' competition immedietly outside the ring 
He lost 0.5 on his retrieve and 2 for heel on lead and 2 for heel off lead. the losses were down to slack areas in my training i.e. turns, set offs, presents and stays - tho he did his 2 min down stay. And I hadnt thought of proofing for 'its a knockout' but will make sure we start to train during the january sales 