An S.R.H.P. in Scotland

windem bang · An S.R.H.P. in Scotland

Hi Josie, It seems I'm at last going to see one of Greys' relatives. A friend is getting a pup very soon. Both her and her husband have and work Weimaraners at present. They are being very secret squirrel about the puppy, the price was mentioned though and on hearing it I nearly fell off my perch!

I'm told it comes from working lines and I promptly forgot the lines mentioned Embarassed

The prospective owners husband was among a bunch of die-hard work only people when he let out the news of the puppy.
Two of the others had never even heard of the breed so I wasn't slow to tell them they look a bit like a Weimaraner crossed with a Patterdale Terrier Wink

I can hardly wait to see it in the flesh and greatly look forward to seeing it when it begins to work.

Bill T.

josie

Hmm, I'd be a bit worried about the price, TBH. There's no reason for them to cost anymore than any other HPR, and if someone wanted me to pay an extortionate amount I'd have thought they were being unscrupulous and breeding for the wrong reasons. (Grey cost £500, which was actually less than Slate, 3 years earlier, who cost £600.)

The other thing to say is that it's probably harder to draw generalisations about the breed than most other breeds - because they are just not standardised in many ways yet! By this I mean, some have long fluffy coats, others have the correct short, wiry coats. Some are very tall, others not that big. And this variation goes also for their working ability, going by what Craig who went to visit them in Slovakia, said on a thread here somewhere - some are superb workers, others were awful.

I think, if you look at the genetics, it's not surprising this is happening - if they have been recently outcrossed (which I think crossing to other breeds can be considered!), then you will get huge variety in the resulting litters. So at the moment it's a bit hit-and-miss as to what you'll get in some ways.

All this is JMHO Wink

Claire

So Bill, how much is the breeder charging for this puppy then ? I actually know who the puppy is and who is buying it. I do like the SRHP very much but I can't help thinking they are going down the route of a weimaraner and becoming more a fashion accessory Rolling Eyes

One can only hope that the breeders of the SRHP do not take advantage of their current fashion Sad

Josie, by the way, I don't put you in the fashion accessory category because I know you better than that Wink

windem bang

Hi Claire,

I'm sorry but I wouldn't feel right putting the price of a pup told to me in private out over the internet. The owners of this pup do show or at least the lady does. Both do try to work their dogs though and I'm assured this pup will be worked or at least they will try to work it. Both man and wife regularly attend shoots, I often see them there. The man will tell you straight that he has no interest in trialling but he does have a fair idea of what is required.

I don't know anything about this breed but I hope their pup comes from good working breeding. Time will tell.
I share your misgivings concerning this breed being turned into a fashion accessory, hopefully it will not share the fate of the Weimaraner. If I understand the situation correctly, this breed cannot be shown -yet.
With some luck and determination on the part of its' breeders and owners, no attempts will be made to establish the breed as a showdog until the working wheat is separated from the non-working chaff.

Bill T.

josie

I don't totally understand what is required for a breed to be fully reg with the KC (and able to be shown) but I think it has something to do with the number of different blood lines in the UK or something.

Although there are some folk who have SRPs and are going into the working side of things, I think they are already outnumbered by the numbers being produced by show-focussed kennels. The very fact that the people who seem to be attracted to them are Weim people bodes bad for the breed, generally, as we all know what's happened to the Weim.

It's strange though, but there are some things I miss with Grey. She is not as "in yer face" as a Weimy and I kind of miss that. There is a sort of urgency which is missing, I guess if you wanted to be anti-Weim you would call it a "hyper-ness" LOL! But I kind of miss it, although it can also be a pain in the backside, it is also a really positive thing in some ways. You see, I haven't been totally won over by the dark (hairy) side yet!!!!

tashap

This is what the kennel club have listed on their site for the recognition of a new breed:

Recognition of new breeds
31-Aug-06

The Kennel Club General Committee will consider an application for recognition of a breed once there are specimens of it resident in the UK. In general, an application should consist of:

Names & addresses of UK owners/importers
Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations
Recognition status in the country of origin
Details of Registration body in country of origin
Breed Registration statistics in country of origin and other countries
Show entry statistics in country of origin and at international level
Details of any inherited conditions prevalent in the breed
If the breed has been crossbred, when the registry closed
Brief history of the breed & photographs
Breed Standard from country of origin and date of first internationally recognised standard
For Working Breeds – details of activities.
Recognition of a breed allows registration on the Imported Breeds Register, although the breed would not be eligible for exhibition until such time as an Interim Breed Standard is published. This is not considered at the same time as recognition, as it is the Kennel Club’s policy to allow the breed to develop slowly before show participation is permitted.

Breed recognition is at the discretion of the Kennel Club General Committee. The policy on the recognition of new breeds is currently under review and therefore additional information may be requested and further criteria may be introduced.

tashap

I'm not sure but I think you also have to have a rescue service set up.

windem bang

So it seems that my hope of the better working types with the right aptitudes for working being discovered and developed before being allowed to be shown is to be dashed. What a pity, I can see a mish - mash of this breed being allowed into the ring and the winners in the ring being the future of the breed whether they be good at working or not.

If this is allowed to happen the breed as true dual purpose dogs is dead in the water.
If this happens the show people should think shame on themselves for turning what could be a really worthwhile dual- purpose gundog into a mere ornament.

Bill T.

langhaar

Having experienced the process I agree with the Import Register status and all the restrictions which go with it.

A new breed into the UK must prove its foundation stock over here is as good as that bred in their country of origin. Interim breed standard status allows entry onto the Import register and they remain on this until the KC accept the breed as being one which could be a reputable addition to their sub group. There are no set rules but as a rule of thumb full status is considered on numbers of bloodlines imported into the UK combined with results of foundation stock and their progeny in the ring and in the field if applicable.
I understand the original importers of the SRHP wanted the breed to be worked, not shown. This was the original concept of those who imported the Longhair and the KG into the UK.
But, how can you assess the quality of future UK stock unless imported foundation stock are judged to their breed standard? The GLP would not have been allowed full status purely on their results in the field , however successfull they have been. You can have a dozen field trial champions but these great results won't give an imported breed full recognition. HPR's are supposed to be dual purpose.
This is the concept of our kennel, that is our preference, so we had no hesitation in exhibiting our stock in the ring and the field.What we had to prove both to our selves, the KC and future owners was the stock we had imported was as good both in conformation and ability as those in their country of origin.

If you think this was a doddle, forget it! This has been a long hard slog, there have been times I wished my principles were not so high and bred puppies for pet homes and just put the money in the bank! But we didn't ! If you think this gives you credit with your peers, forget that too!!, you just have to wear a thicker set of armour and stick to what you believe in.

In a short space of time, from 1999 to 2006 the GLP has been accredited full status which now allows the GLPC to run its own field trials
Has this changed the breed, well your imput on this question would be interesing. But, the first Crufts BOB GLP came from the working class. The top show GLP 2006 also had FT awards Have we dashed the reputation of this breed by putting it in the showring in order to gain full recognition, personally I don't think so.
All owners of our dogs sign a voluntary contract, no progeny from this kennel will be bred from unless it has been assessed for both ability and breed type and of course hip scored. I make sure puppies go to principled owners. Will those breeders of other imports do the same?
I sell pupppies for £ 600.

josie

langhaar, Can I ask, how do you demonstrate the dogs' abilities in the ring if they can't be shown over here yet? Do you mean, taking them to the continent and showing them there? (I can understand proving them in the field, as they can compete in working events here once on the Import register. Which SRPs are now.)

langhaar

If the SRHP has an interim breed standard approved by the KC they can be entered in the Import Reg classes at shows. They are trialled so they can also be shown. Have you a Club?

josie

They are definitely on the Import register, as I queried that with the KC before we got her (didn't want to have one and then not be able to compete in gundog things with her!). They also have a "provisional" club, which we've joined. (Although haven't heard anything back from since joining.)

But I'm not sure if they have an interim breed standard approved yet, in fact I was told they don't yet have a UK breed standard. Is it possible they are on the Import register without an interim breed standard??

Claire

Sorry Bill, I wasn't meaning the husband and wife team were getting the SRP for fashion reasons either Wink

I could be totally wrong here but I think the current difference between the GLP and the SRP is that those breeding the GLP actually work their dogs as well as show whereas some (not all) people who are breeding the SRP do not work their dogs, at least not as far as I know.

Again I could be wrong but I thought the SRP could be shown in Ireland. Perhaps someone can confirm this either way Question

Helen

How can they have a breed standard if they aren't all standard? It's going to be a very ambiguous one, isn't it?

Helen

josie

Well, precisely Helen, don't get me going or I will say lots of things which will start huge fights and everyone will hate me and I'll have to put my foot in my mouth Laughing

None of which would be a first though Laughing

Yes Claire, they can be shown in Ireland and in all FCI shows (ie in Europe) as they have an FCI breed standard.

langhaar

The SRHP is on the Import Register but does not have an interim standard which has been approved by the Kennel Club. It can be trialled but cannot yet be shown!

UK Interim standards for new breeds are usually based on FCI ones. Theirs are written from the standards based in the country of the breeds origin, once written FCI ones are NEVER changed. It takes time to get it right. Who is in charge of writing the UK one, if they get it wrong it has to be resubmitted!

Best phone your club to find out what's happening, or talk to the lady who imported them in the first place, she's on the KC Breeds Committee!

Was offered one by her years ago but too committed to the GLP.

langhaar

Can't remember if we could trial GLP's before interim standard approval, think they could but best check with the KC on that one. I know a KG has trialled now and have seen a SRHP compete at a working test so presume they can trial.

Mike

windem bang

I still like the sound of this breed and would still like to train one. I'm perfectly happy to let the show people sort out the show standards. If I'm reading correctly between the lines here though the dogs being imported are of rather mixed standards. It could be that some owners are in for a disappointment when their dogs do not meet the eventual show standards set out. If this turns out to be the case, the breed may be split before it is even properly started especially if some of the dogs not of show standard turn out to be good workers.
I know which "type" I would buy - but that's just me Exclamation

Bill T.

Claire

"I know which "type" I would buy - but that's just me"

Ahem Bill, I've not given up trying to get you in the ring yet with that lovely GSP Very Happy

josie

Yes, I think Buck looks very handsome from the photos I've seen Bill. Laughing

You can definitely trial SRPs because Mark Hodgkinson trialled Ansona A-somethingorother last season and got a COM with her. That was the first (and so far I think only) FT award for a SRP in the UK.

I don't think the SRP registry can be closed in its country of origin because they are still currently breeding in Weims, GWPs, the odd GSP - dogs they feel would benefit the breed. None of this is documented on the UK pedigrees. For example, Nina (Alkemist) saw Grey's pedigree and told me that her Czech breeders' Weims have Ch Kazan Nestor in their pedigrees and that he was a great working Weim. Well, I had no idea he was a Weim and he's on Grey's pedigree, I think her great-great-grandfather, so I thought that was v funny and now I look at all the other pedigree names and wonder what breed they were Laughing

The other interesting thing is that everyone in the UK thinks of them as being purely grey in colour as as this being the only acceptable colour. In Slovakia they interpret their breed standard in a wider way and accept other markings - some actually looking like GWPs or like wiry GSPs - if you look at this website, and click on the UK flag, and then click on Photogalerie, you will see some photos of these: http://www.slovenskystavac.sk/ These are ALL SRPs in Slovakia. In fact, they seem to care much more about the breed's working abilities than what it looks like over there.

windem bang

Good on yer Claire as they say in upside down land - I do love a tryer dog or human Exclamation

Tell you what, I'll do it if you can get Tom B. to do it first Exclamation

Bill T.

P.S. If you can do that I promise to be there too - with a camera Exclamation

windem bang

Hi Josie,

I've just looked at the photos, I do, I do, I do like the look of some or even most of them! I didn't know so many colours were available. I hope our K.C. allows all of these colours.
Going by what you say Josie, I think with my attitude to H.P.R.'s, I would fit in well in Slovakia. A place where the dogs work is put first sounds like heaven to me!

Claire, just so nobody can say I'm biased against showing, Shocked

I'll have a word with David Winser. If he says Buck is really worth putting into a showring and would be unlikely to always be there only as an "also ran" I'll have a shot at it, or let someone else do it more likely!

Bill T.

Helen

This is what I can't get about the SRHP; they are still putting in different breeds from it's country of origin. Am I reading that right? How long does it take for a breed to get established? If this breed has been around since the 50's, isn't that long enough to get a definite type?

Go for it Bill! Just make sure you let us know which show it is Wink

Helen

josie

Well, it was developed in the 1950s but at first it was called a Wirehaired Weimaraner. From 1950s until 1975ish, they were breeding freely between "Wirehaired Weims" (SRPs) and Weims. Then the German Weim club discovered what was happening and protested that the SRP isn't a Weim, and they couldn't be called Wirehaired Weims and had to be their own separate breed.

Yes, they are still putting in different breeds in its country of origin, that's right. From what I've heard, I don't think it happens as frequently as it used to, but breeding in other breeds is still happening.

The issue in terms of genetics is that, in order to establish a breed pretty much from scratch, you have to breed back to the dogs you like until you are getting consistency, so a certain amount of in-breeding has to go on. However, for the health of the breed, you can't let the gene pool get too limited and so they breed in outcrosses (other breeds) to get some fresh blood in. If you look at any number of Slovak pedigrees, they are often terrifyingly similar, especially the SRPs we have in the UK. When I was looking at where to get our SRP from, it was really all so much of a muchness that I often wondered it if made any difference, the same dogs seemed to be in them all! So I'd say it's actually a good thing that they are still breeding in other breeds.

windem bang

Gee Ta Helen, I'll be sure to do that Exclamation

Bill T.

karenb

Claire

Good on ya Karen, help me keep the pressure on Laughing

Well Bill I thought Buck looked good, obviously I've not seen him for a couple of months so he could have changed.

I can't ever imagine getting Tommy in the ring but if I do I reckon I could sell tickets to all the spectators Laughing

Another note for your diary Bill is the East of Scotland Canine clubs open show at the Jack Kane Centre. Sunday 11th November. We have a judge who works their vizslas judging for us (Mr Harper of the Pitswarren Vizslas). I know you aren't biased towards showing really, you just enjoy winding us showgoers up Wink

Helen

Are there any gwp classes Claire? If Bill is going, I want to be there Wink

Helen

Claire

Unfortunately not Helen Sad

We just don't get the entries for GWPs at our show. There is only an NSC class.

tashap

I thought for it to be a recognised breed with the KC they had to have stabilised the breeding programme??

windem bang

Wot a rotten lot!!! How did we move on to a wind up Bill session from a nice discussion about a breed I've never even seen in the flesh?

Even if David thinks he's worth showing I don't think I'll be travelling down to England to show. The show at the Jack Kane Centre in Edinburgh sounds like a reasonable travelling distance. That's the show where I made my ring debut last year with Belle the Brittany and swore after "winning" that I'd never do it again.

My very first G.S.P. "Shiva of Trekmoor" won a couple of times in the ring as well as winning at trials. I didn't handle her in the ring though - I wasn't even there!

If I go to that show this time, if you haven't seen me before, I'll be the miserable auld sod sitting mumbling about wally dugs and show
dugs! Laughing

Next time I bump into David I'll see what he thinks - he and other "friends" got me backed into a corner to get me to enter this show last year. I won't be so easily "persuaded" again!

Claire if you tell Tom about this, the b^**"r would turn up with a camera and I'll never be able to hold my head up in the pub again Crying or Very sad

Bill T.

langhaar

Know I'm going " off thread" but interesting to hear a Pointer and Setter Puppy Stake was recently won by a " show " bred pointer.

Any one who wants an honest GSP opinion I would suggest Midland Counties, I hear the judge judges the 4 legs there!

Helen

Helen

langhaar

A " Stockend " Puppy bred by David Woods, see CR's Pointer Breed Notes maybe last week or before. I did see his full Ch pointer run on a moor, this maybe the dam. I'm pleased for him, he's put a lot of work into his dogs. Sue Wilkinson ( Hurwyn ) also has a Fowington from Embercome lines( ?) which either her or Pete trials with 2 tickets or might even be made up now. Merele Astbury has trialled Crookrise, good to see now she is a B panel judge. Good to see too Pete has another HPR judging apt.

lagopuslagopus · breed specific

Is that Meryl's Pete judging HPRs Brenda? If so, where?

windem bang

Langhaar, would you explain what "judges the 4 legs" means please?

It is interesting that a few lines of (English) pointer continue to keep good working instincts although they are show lines. I trained a Crookrise bitch and she loves working and was, in the main, easy to train.
I didn't have nearly enough proper work on the right kind of ground to train her on unfortunately or I would have tried her in a trial. She loved retrieving and was the equal of most other dogs at this. I used her for picking-up and she did pretty well on pheasant and ducks,(she was a keen swimmer.)
I stopped using her because she really did feel the cold and spent a good bit of the day wrapped in my body warmer waiting for birds to fall.

Bill T.

langhaar

No Karen, Peter O Driscoll. Meryl and Pete are in " The Grouse, Artists Impressions " which should have been on sale at the Game Fair. Artist Keith Sykes describes a days counting with them and has included a scraperboard picture of one of their Irish setters in his chapter. There is a picture of a Longhair too, our Konan and a pointer head study of one of Cicely's Crookrise pointers,he's been out with her too! This is a truly
" Glorious" book with pictures of this premier game bird by all the best sporting artists!

Ghilliegumdrop

I wonder if Annie can get there Bill, I would LOVE photo's of you in the ring.......and the dog Exclamation

. Judging 4 legs means the judge looks at the dog not the handler, not something you could say about all of them Twisted Evil

Jan

lagopuslagopus

I've just ordered that book Brenda - sounds lovely.

windem bang

Thanks Jan, I'd never heard that 4 legs thing before, IF I go to that show and if I see a camera pointed even remotely in my direction - I'm off!!!
I doubt if Annie would go anyway, it's a good distance from her.

Thanks again,
Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

If she knew that you are going I bet she would be there Very Happy

She's off to France for the French Brittany weekend [she goes tomorrow morning at some ungodly hour] don't know if Guy is going as well.
Jan
PS I'm coming up to Annie's in December when Mike goes to Spain for lunch [don't ask] so may be we could meet Question

Perhaps bring your lady wife over as well and I can buy you all lunch Very Happy

BritAnnie

That's a good idea - how about half way - Maybe the Horn between Perth and Dundee? Weather permitting of course Rolling Eyes

BritAnnie

BritAnnie

Helen

I've met David a few times as he doesn't live too far from here and has some fantastic dogs. Excellent that he won Smile

Helen

Claire

I will get you a schedule Helen for the East of Scotland show as I'm on the committee. I'll get one for you too Bill Wink

BritAnnie

Can I have one too - may as well enter if I'm coming to watch Bill or handle Buck!
Annie

Claire

Aye of course. It would be nice to have a Brittany entered at our show Smile

Our show is the day after GBAS which can be handy sometimes.

karenb

windem bang

Gee Ta, Claire! Smile

Jan, I'd be very pleased to meet you, we'll organise a bit more later. I may even be able to do justice to a lunch as I should have my new gnashers by then - Buck willing Exclamation

Annie, thanks for the offer, I'll see what David says about Buck before taking this any further. Have a nice holiday, see you soon I hope.

Bill T.

langhaar

That one was just for you Karen B ! Pleased you appreciated it !!!! How's that Deutsch Kurzhaar Jagdgebrauchshund of yours getting on?

Ghilliegumdrop

So, will you lot be at Midland Counties?? Could we meet up and have a natter??
Jan

karenb

Hi Langhaar
The hoodlum is doing just fine thanks Very Happy

Her gundog training is progressing at a steady pace, and I love her attitude to work. We are in no rush with her as she is very much a pup in her head and needs time for her mental maturity to catch up with her more advanced physical maturity .... if only everything developed at the same rate Rolling Eyes

Usually at most shows - if I’m not showing I’m acting as chauffeur for a field spaniel !!

Karen

An S.R.H.P. in Scotland

breed specific