| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Camusericht |
Are there any soft mouthed HPR's?As someone who has been shooting and handling working gundogs all his life I am appalled at the apparent lack of soft mouths within the HPR group of breeds.I would like to bring on another GSP before mine gets to retirement age but I am so depressed at the moment by the amount of damaged game that I have seen - from a multiplicity of breeds - that I don't know where to start. I can't see the point in putting so much time and effort into training a dog - never mind the significant financial outlay - to then find that everything it retrieves comes back looking like roadkill. I have never had a hard mouthed Labrador or Spaniel, and have very rarely come across one, so when looking for a pup from one of these breeds the issue would never cross my mind. But with the HPR's it would be the first question I would ask about a potential prospect. So... can anyone help me with a 100% cast iron guaranteed soft mouthed strain of HPR? PLEASE!! Whilst I would prefer to continue with GSP's I would happily change allegiance to another breed for the confidence that this guarantee would bring. Until then I'm afraid I won't be getting another HPR and will just have to continue with my Labradors without the excitement of a dog quivering on point. I have worked a GSP for the last 12 years and would miss it but I will not miss the disappointment and embarrassment of witnessing hard mouth. Too many people in the shooting fraternity refer to these breeds as HPC's - standing for Hunt, Point and Chew. I would like to be able to tell them where to go, and show them how capable a well trained and handled HPR can be. Please help me to do so! |
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| Mike |
I think Bill (windem bang) would probably agree with you on this one. I know Tom Brechney takes the problem very seriously as well (although I have no idea if he has any plan to breed a litter any time soon). It might be an idea to give Bill a PM and see what he suggests? | ||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Bill's on his trip at the moment [fishing] I think he may be back this weekend.
However I must say that I haven't had experience with hard mouth with Ghillie.......perhaps she's unique  There again she is a BRITTANY and they are different 
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| josie |
Neither of mine are hard-mouthed... | ||||
| Helen |
None of mine (gwps) are hard mouthed. In fact, they have very soft mouths. Rob was working Harvey on the grouse when he flushed a rabbit. The rabbit jumped into a bomb hole (army ranges) and started swimming. Harvey jumped in, retrieved the rabbit to hand and Rob let it go.
OTOH, I have a hard mouthed springer. Helen |
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| BenB |
i have a very hard-mouthed springer (so use it for beating and a soft mouth springer I use as a peg dog) you must be very lucky to have never encountered a hard-mouthed lab in your travels. Not saying this as a defence of HM HPRs but it does occur in all breeds.
IMO it is so easy to tar all HPRs with the same brush and it usually comes from someone working a poorly trained lab or springer. The number of times I have sat in the beaters hut listening to complete bullshit about how amazing the beaters dogs are - to then watch them flush and ruin a whole drive is quite amazing. |
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| bollibop |
our wirey girlie will help me collect the duck eggs and no they are not scrambled when we get to the house 
neither is the shortie girlie hard mouthed
ruth xxxxxxxxxxxxxx |
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| johnhod |
I doubt they could. Hard mouth can be in the breeding of a dog but it can also be taught by bad training/handling. I agree with BenB that you are very lucky not to have come across hard mouthed labs and springers. I've seen many birds destroyed by both breeds on shoots. If you've had so much bad luck with HM in HPRs maybe you could share the breeding of your dogs with the rest of us so we don't fall foul of the lines involved. |
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| Lisa |
Blu isn't hard mouthed........yet!!
He won the fun retrieveing at the WCGB fun day which included retrieveing a fresh egg!! It came back fully intact!! phew! 
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| guy |
My pup pegged a quail the other day and brought it back very much alive. Partridge she keeps dropping as she brings them back. Some of the feathers off but the skin unpunctured.
Not sure the egg test is an indication of soft mouth - but fun. i used to have a spaniel who would do that trick and you could hear the egg roll up and down her teeth as she brought it in. Her other party trick was to retrieve a chocolate to hand, not that you would want it back as it was rather slobbered on 
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| lagopuslagopus |
Retrieving an egg is absolutely no indication of whether a dog is soft mouthed, neither is cold game IMO. The only way you can tell is on fresh shot warm game, dead, live and running. | ||||
| Mike |
I've seen a good number of dogs put out for hard mouth from the small number of trials I have been to, so it certainly isn't unheard of in the HPR world... | ||||
| weima |
I agree |
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| weima |
Interesting as the trials I've been to this hasn't been the case or perhaps the handlers didn't want to say. It isn't unheard of in the HPR world but neither is it in the retriever or spaniel world The retrievers on our shoots bring birds back mangled and in some cases you can hear the bones crunch 
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| Lisa |
So, is it an individual dog thing or as the initial post says, it's down to the breeding? | ||||
| weima |
Both. I wouldn't breed from a hard mouthed dog knowing it would be working. |
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| Mike |
At one trial it was mentioned by the judges in the summing up I also think for some judges it isn't that high on the priority list so they are possibly a bit more sympathetic than other (who may well have zero tolerance)
For sure i've seen / heard plenty of birds being flattened by spaniels and retrievers. I've also heard of birds going unchecked at open retriever trials because the dogs are of "open standard" and so don't need it 
What a lovely bunch of rumour and hear say i've posted
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| weima |
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| munstyman |
The answer to the initial post is here:
Johnhod wrote:
There are three areas to consider with Hard mouth; Breeding/temperament, training/handling, experience/circumstances. Any one or combination can cause a dog to bite down on a bird. As for it being prevalent in HPR breeds rather than the `traditional' breeds is more down to the fact as a group we are more open about talking about it, ( and dealing with it )
When it comes to dogs, any dogs there are no 100% guarantees...if you want a guarantee buy a toaster
Peter |
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| weima |
If your toaster is that good can I have it please 
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| Camusericht |
Just to clarify!If you read my remarks carefully you will note that I said that I have never had a hard mouthed Lab or Spaniel myself but that I have witnessed some out shooting.I do not deny that it exists in the traditional breeds but merely comment that from many years of experience in the shooting field - and in that time the examination of thousands of carcases - it is a far more prevalent factor in the HPR world. My own GSP's have had indifferent mouths, with my current one being poor in my view but better than some of the other dogs that I see in the field. The acid test for me is when a dog is sent to retrieve a runner. Is the bird still alive when presented to the handler? Two birds I saw recently - retrieved by separate dogs and both very live runners - would have fared better had they been run over by my 4x4. They were only fit for ferret food (which is what they ended up as) at a time when they were worth £6 each in the feather and considerably more on a restaurant plate! So far nobody has stood up and said that they would guarantee any bloodline as softmouthed. In contrast I have recently bred a litter of Labradors and all 10 pups have gone to working homes. I will 100% cast iron guarantee that - subject to training disasters that can happen to any breed - all of those pups will have soft as butter mouths. In the end my kennel name's reputation rests on that. Proof of the pudding will come in twelve months time when they start work. Since I am keeping two myself and they will be seen regularly by at least one of the posters on this board there will be no hiding place for me if I am wrong! |
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| josie |
I think, going by what I've seen on shoots, that many people put young dogs into situations which they just shouldn't be put in. I wouldn't send one of my dogs for a feisty runner until it has 1. retrieved cold game perfectly, consistently, in multiple situations 2. retrieved totally-dead but warm game perfectly, consistently, in multiple situations 3. retrieved game which is still moving but not dangerous (ie not a very alive co ck bird with spurs) and finally 4. only then retrieved v feisty game.
Not saying that breeding has nothing to do with it, I'm sure it does. But given that the pup is picked by that point, I may as well give it the best chance and not push things. I've seen people on shoots just seeming to want to get their dogs out, doing the whole kit and caboodle asap rather than taking things slowly. |
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| Mike |
Re: Just to clarify!
Okay, tin hat on. I am curious as to why this is perceived to be a good thing. Certainly it isn't in the quarries interest (i.e. from its point of view the quicker it is dispatched the better) and why risk injury to a dog (possible blindness from spur or beak) that has potentially had years of training poured into it and still has years more work left in it for a "£6 bird"? I know in other parts of the world some handlers wouldn't want shot quarry brought back alive (they also wouldn't want it ruined for the table either) so why do we in the UK prize it so much? Further to the above, dogs used for coursing also kill their quarry and it is still deemed good enough for the table. |
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| Camusericht |
Mike,
Why should a dog retrieve game undamaged? Because it is a food product which should be treated as such. Whilst I take your point that it might be considered more humane for the dog to despatch the animal the moment it finds it the reality is that chewed up game is essentially unfit for human consumption. Apart from the fact that the carcase looks a mess and is very difficult to process neatly, there is also the likelyhood that the gut contents are squeezed out and the bacteria within spread all over the place, there are often teeth puncture marks in the flesh - and do you really expect someone to eat something that your dog has driven its teeth into. Take a cleanly shot gamebird and one that has been mauled by a dog, dress them and look at the end result. Which would you serve to someone for dinner? Go on a Game Meat Hygiene course and see what that has to say on the subject. Read the latest Code of Good Shooting Practise as well. Talk to Gamedealers, Chefs, Shoot Managers etc and see what they think! As regards injury to a dog from picking live game one wonders how breeds such as the Labrador have been so successful over the years? Surely thousands of them would have suffered injuries if this was really such a problem? I won't say it doesn't happen - though I think something from the corvid family would be a more likely culprit than a gamebird - but in four decades of going shooting I have never seen it. I shoot with three Vets and out of curiousity I will ask them whether it is something they have ever been asked to treat. Now you can take the tin hat off! |
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| Helen |
Can I just ask why come on a working hpr board and say labs are better? Apologies if you are wanting to learn more about hprs in Britain but interested to hear if otherwise.
My oh wished his springer had crunched a cock pheasant when she retreived it as it spurred his thumb, going VERY deep. Vet on hand to treat him lol. That's one vet treating an injury from a bird. Spaniels and labs outnumber hpr's on shoots across the country. I have seen some AWFUL springers and labs, crunching, pegging, bogging off etc etc. I have seem some FANTASTIC springers and labs who have done a fantastic job. I have only seen a handful of hprs on shoots and they have been a mixed bunch, like the springers and labs really but...it only takes one hpr to be rubbish and the whole breed is tarred with the same brush, unlike springers and labs. Everyone knows there are good ones and bad ones out there, don't they? Helen |
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| kiwi |
sika has a jeckell and hyde thing going on, she is quite happy bringing back wounded game, but has been known to save me the job of swinging the odd goose watching her bring back a large protesting gander had me in tears as she took the beating all the way back to me only to stop a few meters short to spit out the canada and grab it by the neck and drag it the last few feet
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| Camusericht |
Please, please, please read my initial post again CAREFULLY! You will note that my very specific reason for posting on this site is that I am seeking to purchase another HPR - but that I am not prepared to do so unless I am as sure as can be that the new prospect will have a soft mouth - and I am very specifically asking for guidance from others in the HPR world as to where to look. I am very pro HPR work and would not want to lose it as a significant aspect of my life. I do not suggest that Labs are "better" in general terms - since they are required to perform different tasks - but so far as soft mouth is concerned there is no doubt in my mind. I work both types of dog because I enjoy it and have enough working options for them to enable me to do so. The "R" in HPR stands for retrieve and I firmly believe that this should be done to the same standard as I would expect from any other breed. I have been looking for a new pup for over three years and am simply asking for someone here to point me in a direction and say that XYZ bloodline will satisfy your concerns. Can anyone? Surely, if so many people believe that I am wrong - and out of order to malign HPR's so - this should be easy?! |
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| josie |
Where is Bill when we need him?
I think he would have a lot to say on this subject...where is he? |
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| Mike |
On holiday Jo.
In my initial reply Camusericht I mentioned Tom Brechney because I know he shares your concerns and whilst there are no guarentees in life, if I wanted a soft mouthed GSP I would speak to him. If you do not have his contact details I am sure someone could provide them for you. Hope that helps, Mike |
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| weima |
Claire has Tom's contact details if you PM her as she trains with him. |
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| Helen |
Apologies then (sorry, I do'nt know your name as you are not saying so in your posts and didn't post an introduction). I have seen very negative posts about hprs on various forums so apologise for getting on the defensive. I felt you were saying you were wanting a gsp, couldn't find a decent one so was sticking with labs.
I have no knowledge of gsp lines so can't help you there. Bill, who I think is on holiday, is the one to talk to although he feels some lines do have hard mouths. there really isn't any point in denying it cos it's probably true. I work various breeds for various jobs and find that my gwps fit in very well in the kennel and wouldn't be without one. If I had experience of a hard mouth, I might feel different but I haven't. Helen |
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| Camusericht |
Thanks Mike, I will do that.
If someone could PM me his contact details that would be much appreciated. Before I bought my first GSP I purchased the Tom Brechney/Martin Deeley training videos and then used them (as well as books by Michael Brander, Guy Wallace, Derry Argue and others) as the basis for my training regime. I'm still open to other suggestions if anyone has any? |
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| Camusericht |
Helen,
I felt that I ought to be coy about my identity as it would be unfair to make remarks that could be then attributed to specific dogs and their handlers without giving them the opportunity to defend themselves if they view things differently. There are users of this forum that know me and work their dogs with me, who know my views (or ought to by now!) and will be able to identify me from my Username and post content, so I am not trying to be sneeky. Just trying to avoid causing public embarrassment to others when expressing my views. |
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| Barb |
hard mouthsI am with Helen on this, the rest of us don't know you and it would have been good manners to have introduced yourself before asking the type of question you asked.You have to remember we get a lot of trolls on forums
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| BenB |
Don't Trolls live under bridges? | ||||
| weima |
And on forums
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| BenB |
So tempted to hijack this thread to tell you about my billy goat gruff called "pick-up". | ||||
| Lisa |
start another post!!!!
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| Bareve |
Re: Just to clarify!
I agree with a lot of what has already been said on here and certainly from the birds shot on our local shoot you can tell which ones have been picked up by the owners Springers by the bits they are in. HM occurs in all gundog breeds but there are certainly more Springers and Labs being used so more people are aware when an "odd" HPR on a shoot does damage on a bird. However I can't let pass your comment above where you state that your Lab puppies mouths will be guarantee'd other than training disasters... So by the same token every breeder of HPR's could say the same......
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| munstyman |
The problem is your asking for specific recommendations of breeders and lines on a open forum, and this by default would only be based on our own individual observations on shoots and trials. I can only handle my own dogs retrieves to comment on their mouths, and I have had to defend my own dogs soft mouth against a guns hard mouthed dog on numerous occasions with the help of the keeper ( and some nail clippers ). I know of many lines of many breeds which have FT awards of the highest order, which given the scrutiney of our judges should indicate dogs of soft mouths, but could I `guarantee' the pups from that line if purchased by you on my recommendation, would not be hard mouthed, not really as there are too many variables and NOTHING in breeding dogs is 100%.
A good place to start would be to look at the FT winners over the last few seasons or from established working/trialing kennels and see which are planning to breed. See if you can get to watch them work either on a shoot or a trial and see if they work the way you like and see their mouth in action. For the record I am in total agreement with you on the state of the retrieve being very important, as it is for eating. That is why I have gone further than our FT requirements when examining birds for HM in the WAPSUK. A dogs function when retrieving is to collect what I shoot so I can eat it, if they chomp it they fail in that function and I don't house, feed and train all for the pleasure of their company
Peter |
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| Camusericht |
Re: Just to clarify!
Firstly, I'm not talking about an "odd" HPR as I have been out in the field with a lot of them and on many days the dogs are predominantly HPR's. I have also been a Gun at an HPR Field Trial for a number of years and have been dismayed at what I have seen on those days too. Secondly, I will stand by my guarantee of the pups that I have bred and will donate the equivalent of the purchase price to charity if I am wrong and one of my two develops a hard mouth. Since you claim to be the top GWP breeder in the country are you confident enough of your own produce to match me? And if you are, when are your next pups available? |
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| Camusericht |
Peter, Yes, I have posed the question on an open forum but that doesn't stop anyone from sending me a PM or from blowing their own trumpet as a breeder if they choose to do so. Instead, there seems to be a great deal of defensiveness and finger pointing at Spaniels and Labs. I've never denied that HM exists in those breeds - and I certainly wouldn't stand for it if I witnessed it - but I'm looking to purchase an HPR and thought somebody might just be prepared to "stand up and be counted". If I can't pose this sort of a question on a website dedicated to working HPR's where on earth can I? Please forgive my ignorance but what is WAPSUK? |
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| BritAnnie |
I am very surprised anyone can guarantee anything 100% in animals. Has Mother Nature died?
Annie |
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| Camusericht |
No, she hasn't, but I am prepared to stake my reputation and hard earned cash (and risk being labelled something unmentionable) because I have confidence in what I have bred. If I wasn't confident I wouldn't have bred the litter in the first place as they were bred purely for work and were only sold to working homes. We've come to have the working breeds that we do because others down the generations have done the same and only bred from dogs with the traits that they wished to see reproduced. Would anyone expect a working Pointer kennel to produce dogs that didn't point? Or a working Spaniel kennel dogs that didn't hunt? A working Labrador's raison d'etre is essentially to retrieve game gently. Anything less and it is not fit for purpose. The same standard ought to apply to any gundog breed that is expected to retrieve. If we don't strive for it where will we end up? |
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| BenB |
I know this won't be seen as a satisfactory answer but I can't see how anyone can guarantee a trait in a litter. Yes we strive for perfection but we can't predict nature and nurture to that extent.
Take foxhounds as an example. They have been selectively bred for centuries to attempt to produce hounds of function and type and yet they cull probably harder than any other breed to achieve this. Culling still occurs because you can't guarantee 100% that ALL the offspring will be perfect in all aspects of their work. Given that bad traits occur in all working breeds and especially since HPRs essentially derive from a base of sharp blood required to tackle vermin there must be the occasional throw back to that base blood regardless of our desires to change their inherent aptitudes to game? It would be great to tick the boxes on the order form for a pup but my personal outlook is that you have to make the most of any dogs abilities and aptitude and maybe use that dog for what it shows its true colours for.. Another example might be lurchers (what me on lurchers again!) the breeding of a composite dog as are HPRs and in any litter you might have 6 belting dogs and one that just wants to watch Blue Peter all day. Having typed all that I think what i mean is that I agree with Annie. |
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| munstyman |
http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/about1345.html I can understand why some of the forum comes across as defensive, HM is a serious fault, and all too often it is used as a stick to beat the group with, often by the `Spaniel and Retrievers', ( I'm not putting you in this group ) For as you have said you treat it as it is seen no matter which breed you experience it from. However, many are quick to point the finger turning a blind eye too their own dogs IME and often do so to the detriment of the whole group of HPR breeds rather than to the specific dog or line. As has been shown in the replies as HPR owners we have equally experienced individual `traditional breeds' being hard on game but we do not then suggest that all of that breed let alone group are hard mouthed.
What concerns me more about how this subject is often presented, is that it is all to easy a step to go from `defensive' to `dismissive', and then we will have a problem
This is very much the point, our group have been developed for slightly different sporting functions, and have only recently been brought into our way of doing things. Given the length of time our `traditional breeds' have been developed, and the methods used to get them there , the HPR group have a different heritage and versatility, and are being developed in a different era and with far more constraints, and this is before you take into account the modern developement of the `show breeder' and the effect that they have on `working traits' if these dogs are bred from never having proven its working credentials. I do not want to come across as making excuses for those individuals within our group that are hard on game, but too expect all our dogs to be all perfect retrievers in the forty or so years we have had them in this country to develope, is not realistic, but is, and should be, still a work in progress. ( Remember even now after all this time, there are HM `working' labs and spaniels out there, and they have split breeds)
I hope you are contacted, or given some contacts from the GSP breeders both on this board and within the working HPR fraternity, and can find what your looking for, I know there are many good mouthed dogs out there  You could, if all else fails, breed your Labs to hunt and point ( I think they call them `Flatcoats' )
Peter |
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| Bareve |
Re: Just to clarify!
I didn't say the "odd" HPR as in only an "odd" HPR out there with a HM - what I meant, and perhaps it didn't come across too clear, is that very often on a shoot there are only an odd HPR out with 20 or 30 other dogs so when that "odd" HPR does damage it's remembered far easily than one of the 15 ish Springers. I admire you confidence and I suppose if I too could add the rider "other than training disasters" then I would be as confident too. However I am realistic and know that we are dealing with dogs not robots and there could quite easily be the "odd slip" from perfection whether it's HM, or a steadiness issue, or simply not working to the best of the dogs ability on that day - all issues that would detract from an excellent performance. Yet it is the overall consistency that I would be more interested in and if on the whole our dogs aren't HM, are steady to fur and feather both before and after the shot and did a good job of quartering that gained respectful comments from guns then that would be good enough for me. As for pups we do have puppies at the moment - sired by a F/T winner and a dog with a 2nd in an Open stake and out of a litter sister to a dog with 5 F/t awards. Would they be suitable......... Of course they would other than any training disasters that may occur
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| BritAnnie |
Ah, but is the prospective owner suitable, Sharon? What would happen to the pup if it brought back a runner that was DOA? Might have been shock? Might have been an 'almost-terminal-but-not-quite' shot rather than just winged?
I am sure you do the same as I do and vet all my prospective puppy owners. But although I have bred my previously worked to hawks and Tan winner to my show (but promising in the field) winner, both of whose pedigrees are riddles with French Full Champions, there is no way I'd guarantee anything 100%. I'm very pleased they are all going to Dad/working, Mum/pet and hopefully children/showing homes. They will be much loved multipurpose companions. Most important in my view, rather than one or the other. Annie |
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| Bareve |
Totally agree Annie - just because I have puppies doesn't mean to say they are available and if they are the new owners have to fit "my" requirements more so than meet their requirements
I do guarantee somethings Annie..... that at the time of sale they have a head, 4 legs and a tail
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| BritAnnie |
Oh yes, I had forgotten that - I do too
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| Roy |
Nice reply Annie, IMO never quite comfortable about buying or selling pups from forums, adverts etc without doing homework first. we know where every pup has gone and for what reason, show work or pet homes and hope we get it right. what would happen if one of my pups wasnt quite 100% heaven forbid, dosnt bear thinking about. how can anyone guarantee show quality- field trial winners- cuddly family pets- dogs that dont whine or bark or shit in the right place. phew thats better, Its also nice to educate the people on some shoots who dont know that much about hprs and what their capable of, And get a good responce. | ||||
| Camusericht |
Re: Just to clarify!
Sharon, I fully understood what you meant by the "odd" HPR which is why I was at pains to point out that on many of the days that I am out the dogs are predominantly from the HPR breeds. I am not basing my opinions on the occasional viewing of a very limited number of dogs but on many years of studying a large number of them from quite a few breeds. My sole reason for doing so has not been to denigrate HPR's but to look for a breed/strain/bloodline to use as my next dog. As such I have had a forgiving and open mind over questions such as whether the bird was about to expire anyway, had been shot too close, or damaged by hitting a rock/tree/fence on it's way down. I have posed this question on the forum because I have been so dismayed at the significant number of dogs that have had poor mouths - out of all proportion to the percentage I have seen in four decades of watching the traditional breeds. I thought that on a forum dedicated to working HPR's I might get some guidance, rather than glib accusations about other breeds, on an issue that we all ought to take very seriously and try to eradicate. I went through the same process using different criteria when looking for my Lab bitch - poor hips, lack of nose/drive/pace etc were all considered - and I've ended up very happy with her. Having exclusively worked GSP's for years prior to getting her I could not, and would not, have owned a plodding, noseless, driveless, boring waste of space type of Labrador because I'd have been bored to tears - as you can see my negative remarks are not just reserved for HPR's!! - so I did my research carefully. (And did the same again when looking for a Sire for my litter). As regards "training disasters" and my guarantee of my own two pups I didn't apply a rider - and I am offering to take that on the chin. If either of them develops a hard mouth - no excuses, whatever the reason, my fault/their fault doesn't matter - I will donate £500 to the NSPCC and risk being branded an arse by anyone reading this. For the record their registered names are Camusericht Tweed and Camusericht Midge. I know they will be seen by HPR owners so I cannot, and will not, hide them away. I feel very strongly that all breeders of working gundogs should take this issue seriously, and that dog handlers - of all breeds - should learn to recognize it and ensure that dogs with the trait are not bred from. I am not bothered whether the problem is handler/training derived or genetic, it should not be acceptable, and if we overlook this major fault with a shrug of the shoulders what else are we prepared to put up with? I have no desire whatsoever to shoot over slow, noseless, driveless mutts, with the quartering range of a long lead, simply because they have soft mouths, so I am all for having exciting dogs to shoot over. BUT, I want their breeders to have done their homework and eliminated the genetic element of HM, then I want trainers/handlers to have done their bit too. Until the vast majority of HPR's that we see in the field are free of this fault - and damaged game becomes a rarity rather than an every day occurrence - then the HPR breeds will not gain credibility with the wider shooting fraternity. Please PM me with details of the litter that you have (if you deem an owner who takes the promotion of the working side of the HPR breeds seriously as worthy of your best efforts?). I am arranging a day's Grouse shooting over HPR's within the not too distant future. There will be two Guns, several dogs/handlers in rotation and hopefully a few Grouse shot. There's also the possibility of a Gamedealer and an HPR FT Judge along for the walk as well. Are you up for the challenge of showing me your dogs' capabilities? |
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| windem bang |
I am still recovering from a 350 miles nightmare drive home under hellish weather conditions and mostly in darkness so I am not at my brightest and best and have only "skimmed" over this topic.
I.M.O. its originator is mainly correct - hard mouth is a very big problem among the H.P.R. breeds that I have had contact with. Just a couple of years ago in company with another very well known H.P.R. handler I left the prizegiving ceremony for a novice trial inside a hall and went outside and examined the "bag." I cannot now remember the exact figures but over twenty birds were laid out. More than half of those birds were "in" ......only the birds we both agreed on were included in this number. I think only one dog was put out for hard mouth in the trial - - - so where did all the other "in" birds come from ??? I have trained and trialled and judged both labradors and H.P.R.'s. If a lab is discovered to be hard mouthed at a trial it would nowadays be found a nice pet home - maybe ! Not too long ago it would have filled a hole in the ground ! The trial people did not breed from hard mouthed dogs. My own standards were that my bitches had to win at least one trial before being bred from . I liked to give puppy buyers the best possible chance of getting what they were paying for by using other people to " guarantee" my bitches in the form of their signatures on a winners certificate. This meant that the prospective buyer did not have to take my word for the things that matter. I applied this rule to labradors , to Brittanies and to G.S.P.'s. In common with the person who started this post I tried very hard to find soft mouthed lines among the G.S.P. 's when I switched over from being "a lab man." I spoke to several very well known trainers , triallers and judges of this breed and they all said the same thing. Soft mouthed G.S.P.'s are as rare as hens teeth ! Because of this I went out and bought a breed that had never been used ,trained or bred to kill vermin or to pull down large wounded game. I decided to buy the devil I didn't know - I bought a brittany. This worked very well for me and up to present I have only come across one hard mouthed brittany. This dog was put out for hard mouth in a trial under circumstances that made its ejection very questionable. If soft mouth were the only consideration I would buy a brittany. Having had , (still have) both brittany and G.S.P.'s I think I can say that the brittany is a brilliant working breed ........ but only if you are good enough to train it ! Very few people seem to be ! I am now onto my fourth G.S.P. The previous 3 were all soft mouthed , old Taz has however become hard mouthed during the last two of her 11 years. I can forgive her for this easily. She will now kill a wildly struggling runner with one quick barely detectable squeeze. She would still be easily capable of running in a trial without incurring the penalty for hard mouth because most judges just would not notice !!! She has been out picking up with me since she was 8 months old and she owes me nothing but I owe her a great deal. She has never been bred from because I never trialled her for proof of what I claim for her. Buck is my present young G.S.P. - about 20 months old now. He "worked " after a fashion last season and has his faults (The understatement of the year! ) He did ,however, collect several strong runners and all of them come back to me alive-a- live O !
At present his mouth is still good. All of these G.S.P. are closely related - I have now had 4 out of 4 soft mouthed ones but would I give a 100% guarantee that any and all pups produced from them would be soft mouthed ??? ................ Would I hell ! Any dog ,of any breed - and of any breeding can be or can become hard mouthed. Buying from proven soft mouth lines REDUCES the chances of hard mouth occurring but it does not entirely remove it. My own personal opinion is that hard mouth is more to do with nature than with nurture. The breeding is of great importance. I feel I can safely say this because although I have now owned and trained gundogs - labs, spaniels, Brittanys and G.S.P. 's for more than 40 years, not a single one of them has been hard mouthed. It has to be down to the breeding because much though I hate to admit it I am just not a good enough trainer to have made NO mistakes EVER in my training/nurture of my dogs. My dogs have been spurred by pheasants - they still did not become hard mouthed. One lab bitch returned to me with a crow she had pegged as it fed from a sheep carcase. The crow had its claws buried deep into her lips ,jowls and tongue . It was pecking and tweaking furiously at her face. Still she did not kill it . She remained soft mouthed until I retired her at twelve years old. That is nature not nurture. One thing I would add to all this is that hard mouth could come from either side of a dogs parentage. Try just as hard as you can to see both sire and dam in action before you buy a pup from them. After having had a brittany for a couple of years I eventually persuaded the owner of a g.s.p. bitch I liked to mate her to the dog that I liked. Then I bought my first g.s.p. !!!
Bill T. |
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| Camusericht |
Bill,
Having taken on board all that you have written I have to confess that Brittanys simply don't float my boat (nor do Weimaraners, Spinones or Braccos). Each to his own as they say. Given that alongside my desire for a soft mouthed dog I also want one that tugs at my heart strings are you prepared to "reveal" the breeding of your GSP's? Or point me in the direction of a strain that you respect in this regard? |
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| BritAnnie |
I think the point here is that Camusericht - for the want of a proper name - is looking for 100% proof that his next pup will not be hard mouthed. I wonder if anyone on here would be prepared to give him or her this guarantee and trust him or her with one of their puppies. I'm afraid I can't do that 100% thing, so he/she won't be having one of my Brittany pups (all sold pre birth usually anyway, and only 2 out of 35 over 25 years have gone to pet but active homes, as far as I am aware the rest are working to either the gun or hawks although not trialling)
BA |
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| Camusericht |
I think the more telling aspect is that there isn't even a clamour to say that breeders would be confident of a dog left in their own hands. Or a list of references/referrals to back up any claims that the bloodline has consistently good mouths. I can't believe that the Halsteads, Steeles, Openshaws etc wouldn't back up their reputations rather more strongly than has been shown here! I am firmly with Bill in his view that nature, rather than nurture, is the significant key in HM. That is why I have the confidence to risk my reputation and cash. I have the greatest respect for quite a few of the HPR handlers that I work with and their efforts to train their dogs to a very high standard. That some of the dogs then display HM I do not often attribute to the handler. For a question that ought to be asked by anybody seeking to work a gundog this seems to be causing rather a lot of angst and huffiness. |
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| windem bang |
The strain or line I would point you in the direction of would be the same one that Claire mentioned earlier. Ask Tom Brechney. I will come back to that.
Your requirement of a 100% guarauntee of soft mouth is completely unrealistic. Other than that I have every sympathy with you for I asked almost exactly the same questions when I first tried to find good stock. My first G.S.P. bitch was related to Toms bitch through her dam. I think the dam was litter sister to Toms first F.T.Ch. I later bred back into Toms line mating my bitch to Toms dog F.T. CH. Stewartonian Kane. That is the "line" I have stuck to . My present dog Buck is strongly line bred back to Kane on both lines of his pedigree. Before buying him I determined that not only his sire , Toms dog, was damn good but that his dam was too , a friend of many years owns her - I was not buying from unknown quality. I should point out that Tom Brechney goes straight for the jugular with his breeding. It is work and trial wins that matter to him and that is what he breeds for. If you want a show stopping dog too - then look elsewhere, that is not what Tom breeds for. My advice would be to seek out Tom and tell him frankly what you are looking for. Not all the bitches Toms dog covers will be soft mouthed ! Either go to a litter from Toms dog that he feels he can recommend or buy a pup from a Tom owned bitch. Tom looks long and hard before mating one of his bitches to a dog. Tom isn't daft ,he knows that there is no future in taking a hard mouthed pup to trials so he tries not to breed any ! As I said Tom isn't daft and like me he will not give you a guarauntee of future soft or hard mouth. If I were you I would cease saying that, it implies that you don't know your subject too well.
Bill T. |
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| josie |
Bill, is Kane the dog in the HPR Masterclass series which is sent across on the long water blind? (totally off topic question...) | ||||
| windem bang |
Josie it has been donkeys years since I saw that video - I cannot remember !  Kane was of the type Tom likes and the show folk dont like so much. He was a "rangy" dog. Tom does a lot of grouse work and he felt that the rangier dogs covered the hillsides more easily.
I mated Eva my bitch to Kane after she had won a couple of trials. The mating produced Dirk , probably the best G.S.P. that I have ever owned . He had really good working blood on both sides of his pedigree. He really was 110% soft mouthed and he could run hard and fast forever with a good nose and yet was extremely easy to control at all times. It was this dog that featured in the video I made when he was a pup. He was a slow starter where work was concerned but what a finish he eventually put in ! He was never bred from. I had fallen out of love with trials and did not enter him for any, but I stuck to my principles and never bred from him - he was in a sense "unproven." I do regret this now, he was well worth breeding from. Looking to get the same again I bought Buck , a nephew of Dirks. By my age I should have had more sense - you never get the same dog twice. Buck is like Dirk though for Buck too can run forever and he too loves retrieving - so far with a soft mouth ! Buck is more of a "fool" than Dirk was though ,he likes to play much, much more !
Bill T. |
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| Helen |
Do you think there is a problem in gsp's because of people breeding for showing? I would have said, that the most popular hpr would be the gsp. No idea if the figures back that up but that's what I always see about. Now, I have yet to see a gsp on a shoot. I have seen a number of gwps, weims and a slovak. Where are the gsps?
Sorry, my dogs are already extremelly busy on the grouse on the estate my husband works for, as well as surrounding estates. Helen |
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| windem bang |
P.S. The more I think about it the more sure I am that the dog that did the swim was not Kane. Kane would have been an old dog by then I think.
It was probably one of Kanes descendants - Bucks sire or grandsire. Bill T. |
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| josie |
Yes, it was an old dog Bill, there was comment made on the video of "look what they can still do at this age"... (I think he was 8 yrs, this dog.) Does anyone else know the bit I'm thinking of?? | ||||
| windem bang |
That age would be about right Josie - I think - my memory is getting very bad .
Bill T. |
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| Camusericht |
Helen, I don't wish to appear rude but the invitation was not "open to all", but directed quite specifically to Sharon who says she has a litter of pups that would meet my requirements. I am interested to see her stock but other than that have quite enough dogs available to me. Thank you for your very kind rejection though. C. Bill, I can confirm that it was Kane who was sent to retrieve the duck across the lake in the video. As you say he is not "pretty" but, whilst we all prefer to have a dog that we like the look of, I have no interest in showing. It seems that Tom is the man to speak to, so I shall attempt to do so and take it from there. I understand your point regarding my guaranteeing soft mouth in my produce, but I am sick and tired of taking flack for working HPR's and being unable to rebutt it because I KNOW that on this particular issue our detractors are right. (On many others they are wrong and I have had occasion in the past to rub it in their faces but that is not the topic here.) I felt that I could not ask HPR breeders to stand by their progeny if, as a Labrador breeder, I was not prepared to back mine. I have the courage of my convictions and if I am wrong nobody loses out but me, and those who want to have a dig at Labradors can do so at my expense. It seems to me from your comments that we take the same view on hard mouth. I just wish that others in the HPR community would take a firmer stance on it, stop making excuses for it, and at least strive to eradicate it. They are wonderful dogs but this aspect really lets them down and will ensure that the wider shooting fraternity maintains its poor image of them. Thanks for the help. |
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| weima |
Was it not Sharon
I can't beleive you haven't spoken to Tom already. I would have been on the phone as soon as he was recommended but then I always was impatient
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| guy |
If the choice was opened up to include GWPs then i would suggest a talk with Rory Major (Bryantscroft) In fact a chat to him may be worth the cost of a phone call anyway. He trials GWPs and Brittanys rather successfully. http://www.bryantscroftgundogs.co.uk/
If you ever did wish to go for a flatcoat - I can give you a good contact. |
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| Helen |
oh, I am terribly sorry. As this is an open forum, I thought you were talking to all the members. I won't make that mistake again, please accept my deepest apologies! Helen |
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| Claire |
Interesting thread, although I'm surprised you don't know Tommy already given your involvement in GSPs, Labs and trials.
Tommy's Harris is actually a very smart looking GSP and from a showing point of view I think he would do fine However I would pay BIG money to see Tommy in the show ring
So far, my weimaraners (sorry Camusericht I know you don't like em ) have been soft mouthed. But I'm not sure I would be confident in guaranteeing that any litters I bred would have a 100% soft mouth. I have to say though, when my youngest wei retrieved her first runner, she brought it back VERY much alive to the point where I was in danger of being spurred by the damn thing. But on her first hare retrieve, which for some reason she deemed high value, I heard her crunch down. I don't think that makes her hard mouthed, I think she was young and too enthusiastic, so I don't think you can say a dog is hard mouthed just because of the occasional damaged quarry. As it happens, for some strange reason she often brings her birds back by the neck so nae risk of her putting a side in
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| Bareve |
I'm sorry I've not replied sooner but we've been at a w/t today - bloody good day with three of the 4 puppy awards being awarded to Freddy progeny
Thanks for the invitation - I have already previously been asked to demostrate Freddy and once again, providing my diary was free, I wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Although we do have puppies that would be suitable, as three are going to be worked as well as shown, as I said to Annie earlier just because I have puppies doesn't mean to say they are available and if they are the new owners have to fit "my" requirements more so than meet their requirements You know where I am so if you are really interested in finding out more I would suggest you contact me and then you would come out of the cloak of secrecy that you seem keen to hide behind
I think your insistence for a guarantee for a "puppy" not to grow up and be HM (but how would you define HM - one "in" bird every 20+ birds picked, one "in" bird every 2 or 3 birds - an "in" bird on an occasional runner.....) will prevent breeders from even entertaining your request. I take HM very seriously having been put out of trials before with this reason (with another dog other than Freddy) - once certainly justified with harsh handling of a runner - and on another occasion my dog had put a rib in.... and I think the judge could tell that it was the third from the bottom!! Is this dog HM - not in my eyes but he could be in yours? As such I have never knowingly used a dog who I think is HM but he "may have" over the seasons put a bird "in". To this end, the path I am going down I am happy about, I do not consider the dogs that I work (not necessarily F/T) are HM but would they on occasions put one "in" then maybe - they aren't robots and for that I am grateful as I wouldn't get so much enjoyment from watching an automaton. For me the most important aspect in the dogs I choose to F/T and work is ground treatment and game finding as without that you haven't even got anything to retrieve so HM don't even come into it. Anyway I'm off to bed to get up early and go to a "dog show" - another little aspect I'm keen on with my wirehairs
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| MC |
I've had GSP's for over 30 years and I can honestly state that they are on the whole tough cookies and they don't take prisoners.
So a struggling bird the working dog soon learns to dispatch, generally with a nip (not a chunk out mind) to the base of the neck. Rabbits kicking they will bear down on until the rabbit stops kicking. Having said this, it is bad to have a dog that chews game or leaves it full of teeth holes or bites chunks out of it. Quail are the most difficult they are easily "popped" and it's much nicer to have the quail delivered clean but a difficult retrieve say up a bank, the dog might inadvertently pop the bird. A chewed up pheasant or duck is another thing entirely as these are big birds and should be able to be returned to you with little damage. Using smelly and bloody old birds for training is about the quickest way to get a dog mouthing game, and then worse. Hard mouth certainly can be in bloodlines, but it also can be developed in the training, or lack of training. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
There doesn't have to be any outwardly visible signs like holes or chunks out of a bird for a dog to be hard mouthed. A truly hardmouthed dog is quite capable of breaking the ribs (which is what I thought hard mouth was really judged by - in trials anyway) without actually damaging the flesh. | ||||
| windem bang |
There is a very good chance that if a bird is visibly torn - even to the point of having the skin stripped right off its back - that the dog that did this is soft mouthed. If a bird is hidden among a heap of brashings or brambles the dog has to do something to get it out. It doesn't have hands just jaws and teeth - it uses the tools it has. If the dog has to take a real grip in order to drag the bird out then there is a very good chance of more than just superficial damage being done to the bird.
Good judges note that sort of situation and make allowances for it. Bad judges see the damage done and unjustly put the dog out - giving it an unfounded reputation for hard mouth for the rest of that dogs life. I believe it is up to the individual dog owners to be honest with themselves about their own dogs. Hard mouthed dogs should not be bred from but many are because their owners are not only dishonest with themselves but dishonest to any possible puppy buyer. Maybe the fault was caused by nurture but although this may be a gray area the breeding from hard mouthed dogs is not. It is black or white. Hard mouth dogs must not be bred from. The person who originated this post was wrong in my opinion to ask for a 100 % guarantee of soft mouth when he buys a puppy. I.M.O. he was completely correct to ask where he could go with a very good chance of obtaining such a puppy though. I would do , and have done ,the same myself. It is doing a dis-service to the puppy buyer and to the pup to sell a person who really wants/needs a soft mouthed dog a hard mouthed one. I would not have kept a hard mouthed dog myself. I was interested in trialling and in breeding only from the best. A hard mouthed dog would have been a big waste of my money and my time. It would also have been a heartbreaker for I can only keep a very limited number of dogs. I would have hardened my heart and given the dog away to a pet home. The result of this might just have been yet another dog getting moved on from pillar to post. I think a prospective puppy buyer is only being sensible by enquiring closely about the mouths of a pups parents. Personally, if I didn't get a pretty good answer I would look elsewhere for my pup. It really is strange that in more than 40 years of working gundogs I have never had a hard mouthed one. I believe I am looking hard at nature before I buy - my nurture is less than that of most other gundog trainers. My dogs are taken picking - up at around 8 -9 months old. I often have problems with control but not with hardmouth. Bill T. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
From my limited experience Bill, I have found that the younger I have taken them out and let them pick game the better they are at it. My baby, Ekko, was out with me last season at 5 months (as was Inca but she watched more!) and was even picking runners with no problem. I know a lot of people would think me totally wrong but she is as gentle as could be. Also, and I know the chickens weren't very amused at the time, she was never told off when she retrieved my chickens at home from being tiny. They would get to the bottom of the field and she would bring them back up to the shed! The oldest dog I have, who was introduced slowly and at an older age to cold game first is not at all reliable, and has got worse as she has got older, which was one reason she was speyed a long time ago.
It would be wonderful if we could all go out and buy a puppy with a 100% guarantee that it would not be HM but I think that my friend (I now know who he is) is just being a bit unrealistic expecting that guarantee from anyone. We can only breed from gentle dogs but that is still no guarantee that all the pups will be gentle too - anything can happen when they leave the dam. I would have thought that anyone wanting to work their puppy would be looking into the background of the parents and if at all possible watching them work. Personally, I wouldn't just believe what the breeder says as I know from experience now that many people still don't know how to tell if a bird is damaged or not. |
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| windem bang |
I completely agree and I also agree with taking pups out into the world early. My first brittany retrieved a newly fallen hen pheasant at her very first day at a shoot. She had just finished her inoculations she was about 11 weeks old ! At around the same age one of my lab pups escaped from the car and charged off down a stubble field after the very first bird she'd ever seen shot. It was a very strong partidge runner ,I kept my trap shut and left her to it. She tracked it down through over and under the drifts of hay , picked it despite its wild struggles and brought it back to me in very good and live condition . She was a pup I'd bred myself and she lived a long and soft mouthed life. I.M.O. where the H.P.R.'s are concerned , we nurture them too much and nature them not enough. Bill T. |
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| munstyman |
Karen wrote:
Bill wrote:
Totally concur with these two posts, whilst it still would not `guarantee' the abilities of the pup, it is about the best `foundation' your likely to get. Peter |
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| tashap |
I think i have been lucky with my weim bitch she's always been soft mouthed and I've not had a problem with runners either fur or feather (touch wood coz you never know what the future holds).
Have seen a lab brought in by a day gun not only puncture a bird but stand on it and shread it rather than do a retrieve, was supposed to be a trained dog but it later did the same thing to some of the birds ready to go off to the game dealer. |
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| windem bang |
Sounds like someone has sold the lab owner a pup.
Bill T. |
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| tashap |
was four or five and had been trained by someone else, gun had had him from 2 years... personally I think he was a reject but the gun assured everyone he'd never done it before... | ||||
| windem bang |
Wish I had a pound for every time I've heard that one ! It is the opposite side of the coin from the one that says," He always does it fine in the garden !" Bill T. |
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| langhaar |
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| Bareve |
Such a memorable retrieve wasn't it Brenda
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| langhaar |
Not bad for a showdog
This showdog's not bad either
Are all HPR's bad mouthed? It's a bit like saying all retriever handlers are control freaks
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| tashap |
fabulous pictures | ||||
| Bareve |
That's a cracking photo of Freddy I must ask Wayne to send me what else he may have of Freddy.
Tag's retrieve was still the retrieve of the day tho Brenda
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| Blue |
I've just read this entire thread and I must say i take my hat off to the lot of you. I honestly can't believe that you were all so polite for 8 pages of posts responding to this self - aggrandising blowhard who seems to have come hear only to stir the pot and blow his own "concealed identity" horn. You are all undoubtedly better people than I am.
A quick question from a foreigner...with your style of "hunting" ie driven shoots, what purpose does an HPR serve anyway? Aren't they by their very nature designed for Labs and Springer/Cockers exclusively? Granted I have no experience with this kind of "hunting" but I would like to learn where the versatile dogs fit into it? Furthermore I can 100% guarantee that any pup bred by me will eat, sleep, urinate and defecate....a lot! Other than that, your guess is as good as mine
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| lagopuslagopus |
Driven shooting is only one style of "hunting" and an HPR can be as good as a retriever for this. Getting to work them as an HPR is designed to work is IMO the hardest thing to do especially when you don't shoot yourself, so at other times I would do whatever work was available. They are after all 'versatile' dogs. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Some are more 'versatile' that others  Just like their owners
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| langhaar |
Not another one of those dummy crunchers
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| tashap |
I've just had a good reread of this thread because it is of interest, especially at the moment my pupsters I kept back started with a good start and nice soft mouths but having been off in kennels I am not so sure what the future holds too much access to lots of dogs as a pack and their toys and bones I think 
One of the things mentioned was broken bones of a pheasant with no marks from a retrieve a dog has done but the bones on a pheasant can be broken from the fall, I've picked up a few birds who have been damaged like this without a dog being near it so when can you tell if it is the dog that has done the damage or the fall??? With the obvious experience of the person who started this thread having been a gun for HPRs on trials what dogs have you seen that you have been impressed with??? If any??? Having access to these dogs whilst they are working is an obvious advantage to those of us that don't have this opportunity so I am surprised that you have not been able to find a suitable dog from a suitable breeder through direct observation. There is always the option of buying in a dog that is already trained and has a proven soft mouth, obviously you wouldn't have the pleasure of doing it yourself and there would be an increased cost but this might be the only way that you can guarantee a dog with a soft mouth??? |
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| DesO'Neile |
I have been lazy for years and I can't remember the last time that I didn't skin a pheasant. The net result is that I get to see the place where the dog is most lightly to lift a bird, the body, free of all possible cover. I think I can tell the difference between severe shot damage and puncture marks caused by teeth, for a start off the teeth damage tends not to bleed as much.
I don't remember ever seeing a damaged rib cage that hadn't been poorly shot. That doesn't mean that the bird hadn't been crunched but the benefit of the doubt must be given to the dog in this situation. Ironically I saw a big black labrador dog take a cock bird in it's mouth and give it such a squeeze that you could hear it thirty yards away. I made a point of getting that bird and although it was "out of shape" there wasn't a tooth mark on it. The most common broken bones are legs and wings but quite often these birds are close hit and picked by the gun, never having been in a dog's mouth. I won't probably have to ever judge a trial where birds are retrieved and for that I give thanks as having seen the state some hand picked birds are in I would hate to have to adjudicate on a bird with torn skin that Fido had produced. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
There don't have to be teeth marks for the ribs to be damaged. Someone I know, who has taken the new Judging exam, has been saying that the KC have changed their rules on hard mouth. He says that now, unless you can feel sharp bits sticking out. even if the bird is flat on both sides, it is not put out for hard mouth and that is how he is judging. Has anyone else who has taken this exam come away with the same thinking? I have read my new copy of the FT regs that arrived this week and it seems to say the same as the last ones to me - that if the ribs are caved in or flat this may be evidence of hard mouth. |
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| guy |
Catja at 20 months
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| lagopuslagopus |
This was Ekko at 7 months - she's holding it the same at Catja.
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| Bareve |
I think it depends on the "teacher" Karen as the one we took there was no inference that the rules had changed in anyway. However I do know of one of the A panel people doing these "exams" has always had the opinion that you state above so I wonder if this was this "teacher's" views on the day? |
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| Bareve |
Then on the other hand I've seen a runner picked up by a young dog who then badly tore the neck of the bird where it joins the body - ribs were perfectly OK and un-damaged but this bitch was put out of the trial for damage. It sure didn't look "pretty" but the ribs were OK and the damage wasn't on the bird of the bird you would be eating anyway! |
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| lagopuslagopus |
In that situation Sharon I would have thought they would take into consideration what the dog had to do to catch the bird - as always it's down to someone's personal opinion though. | ||||
| Bareve |
That's exactly what the gallery said and it was a talking point for the rest of the day. Bearing in mind that the bitch had already retrieved a bird to hand without damage it was a strange decision! |
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| weima |
There's been many a strange discision made in field trials
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| munstyman |
Now you know why you have to have a sense of humour when you go Trialing
With regard to the damage done to the runner, was the bird still alive on delivery? as I have seen a couple of instances where a strong runner in full view of the judges is `killed' by the dog and this has eliminated the dog. There is always the chance that the bird expires naturally of course during the retrieve, so would assume the judges have to be fairly certain of what they see and if in doubt give the dog the benefit in adjudication. Peter |
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| lagopuslagopus |
A photo of Ekko delivering her snipe, taken by Alex Hatton who was out with his camera on Friday, when we were working on the Lleyn. This was her HPR on a still very alive snipe. One of my favourite photos this season.
This was the point 
Only one more day left now on Friday. A lot more woodcock had moved back after the freezing weather last week so hopefully they will still be around. |
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