| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Forester |
Axel Del Monte AlagoIf anyone has an interest in the Bracco breed and is attending Crufts on Saturday Axel is coming over from Italy to compete. He is Italy's Top Dog all breeds for 2008 and an excellent working dog too. In my humble opinion if you are keen to know how a Bracco should look come and see him, his owners speak excellent english too.Kim |
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| Bareve |
Thanks Kim - I've seen him abroad and he is one "hell of a dog" and well worth taking the time to go and see him. 
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| weima |
I saw the picture of him in DW last week & thought WOW so I will definitely be wanting to see him. | ||||||||||||
| Claire |
Fantastic! I really like the Bracco so will be looking forward to seeing him strutt his stuff
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| Bareve |
I'm going to have a little wager here
If Axel wins BOB I predict at least a group placing and maybe a Gp 1 
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| Forester |
Crufts is one of those shows where the unexpected happens.... but I'll happily put some money on him too. Even though I'm competing against him he's such a stunning example of the breed for me it's almost a forgone conclusion! When he's seen moving in the group ring (if he's BOB) where he'll have the room to really extend he'll just take peoples breath away.
Can you tell I'm a fan lol! I'm very lucky to have his son and grandaughter here at home, if I can breed on just some of his class I'll consider myself very fortunate. Kim |
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| anniebrac |
Well, I think its a foregone conclusion that Axel will win the group at Crufts with all the pre-publicity in the UK.
Annie |
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| anniebrac |
As a Bracco enthusiast I find it quite insulting that the Chairman of the UK Bracco Italiano Society cannot find it in herself to promote the UK exhibitors.
Basically what Mrs Parris is saying here is that no other Bracco at Crufts is worth considering. I am sure the many exhibitors who have travelled to shows up and down the country in order to qualify for Crufts will be thrilled that she has taken the time to write on a public forum about Axel being a foregone conclusion to win the group!!! 
FWIW there are some (not many, but some!) stunning examples of the Bracco in the UK and none of them out of Axel. I am incredibly offended by this post. I am looking forward to seeing all the Bracchi compete at Crufts, not just Axel!!!! Annie |
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| weima |
I'll be supporting Pomona cos I like her but of course I don't know if she'll be entered but I hope so 
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| Bareve |
If you mean that the owner has taken out an advert in the dog papers then that option is open to everyone else who shows dogs. In the same way do you think the Sealyham will win the Terrier group then? |
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| anniebrac |
Claire
Yes, I forgot about Pomona - sorry. She is lovely and of course is out of Axel so I should have said - not all dogs are out of Axel. I'm sure she'll be there flying the flat for the Bracco in our first breed classes at Crufts!!! Apologies!!!
Sharon I don't know about the Sealyham because its not my breed but I really don't think that any dog should be taking full page advertisements before a big show - especially Crufts. It puts the dog at an unfair advantage and, of course, not everybody can afford the £500 to advertise so, again, that sets them apart from other dogs. I'm not stupid enough to think that judges don't read the dog press and won't be swayed by the advertisement. We will just have to wait and see!! 
I only want to see the best dog representing the Bracco in the group ring on the day. This is our first year at Crufts and its very special for everyone. My little bitch qualified but, to be honest, I can't be bothered with the show scene for lots of reasons so I didnt enter her. I would love to be going this year to see all the Bracchi but, unfortunately, my mum is in hospital having just gone through a major operation. I will be watching in on the web though and if Axel is the best dog on the day he will get my support 100%. I don't want to see an inferior example of the breed in the group ring. I have never seen him so I don't know if he's good, bad or ugly! Many people have worked hard to get their dogs to Crufts and I feel it is in very bad taste that Kim Parris has posted on here promoting Axel. How woud you feel if you had spent hundreds of pounds trailing up and down the country trying to get your dog qualified for Crufts, only to find the Chairman of your breed club promoting a foreign dog - knowing that she has his progeny in her kennel. Its disgraceful! Annie |
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| Bareve |
Apologies for everyone for what is basically now a "show" topic
Annie The Sealyham took the front page on the Our Dogs Crufts Supplement and I had heard of the dog before but was well aware of his reputation. Needless to say I watched him earlier win the DCC and BOB and have to say he was "incredible" and have just seen that he went on to win the Group. I'm not in a position to know if his advert made any difference to the judging but having watched it I somehow doubt as he was simply in a class of his own. You will never stop the advertising especially on the oversea dogs who simply are shown with an advertising budget set aside simply to "advertise" wins and thereby promoting the dog. If people can't afford it then sobeit but the option is there for all. FWIW I believe the comments made earlier on here by Kim were made by Kim and not the Chairman of the Bracco Club. I do believe that sometimes people don't believe officers of any club are in fact normal people with normal lives and opinions. If Kim had signed her comment saying that this was the opinion of the Chairman per se then I believe you would have every right to be upset. I have seen Axel and I believe he is a very special dog but I'm sure that the judge on the day will send through the best example regardless of whether the owner has paid for an advert or not. |
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| anniebrac |
Hi Sharon Kim Parris is the Chairman of the UK Bracco Italiano Society. Anytime she comments on the breed she must have her "Chairman's" head on. She has said on this forum that Axel is what a Bracco should look like. This leads me to think that all the UK dogs are rubbish. I remember when The CEO of Ratners said that about their products - Ratners promptly went under!!! Its the same with anything. If you take a position as Chairperson of a Breed Club, you have to live and breathe that breed club and its members. You do not, at any time, put the members at a disadvantage by stating your own opinions on a public medium. Had she been commenting on the Sealyham then that would have been a different matter altogether - but she was commenting on a Bracco!!! I may think that Axel is a special dog when I see him. However, I havent seen him and I happen to think that there are a couple of dogs in the UK that are superb examples of the breed - namely, Homstar Duccio - Lucca - who took best in show at the Bracco Italiano Society Open Show under an Italian Breed specialist judge. Also, Ardenstorm Luciano Bosis - the first Bracco in the UK to gain a show certificate of merit. These are only 2 of the UK born and bred dogs that will be competing at Crufts. There will be many more besides that I havent seen - and also some european dogs I would imagine. Mrs Parris should be flying the flag for the UK, despite her personal feelings or opinions. With her thoughtless comments, she has let down each and every member of the BIS. What you have to understand is that most exhibitors are very excited about going to Crufts for the first time. Its not great to hear that your Society's Chairman is promoting a foreign dog that is the father and grandfather of dogs she has in her own kennel. Its just plain wrong!! I saw the Sealyham take the Group tonight and I too thought he was a remarkable dog. However, I also think that the advertising wouldnt have done him any harm. The scottie that won him at Westminster got second place and he was just as remarkable. There really wasnt anything in it but perhaps the advertisement swayed it in the Sealyham's favour. As you say, we will never know!!! I don't want to get into an argument with anyone about this so let's just agree to disagree on this matter. Annie |
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| Tony |
This thread highlights everything that is wrong with showing in the UK, terms such as "incredible", "one hell of a dog", "in a class of his own" (apologies to Bareve, this isn't aimed at you personally even if you used the terms  ) When you are trying to select dogs that match the breed "standard" selecting the dog that stands out / catches the eye by definition means you are selecting for exaggeration and away from a "standard".
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| anniebrac |
Hi Tony
Well, I don't know if what you say is right because I don't show that much. However, I am well aware of the Bracco Italiano breed standard (and the alternative breed standard!!! LOL) and I believe that the two dogs I have mentioned above are excellent examples of the breed. I have admired Lucca since he was a puppy and was there cheering him on when he represented the breed in the group ring at SKC. I felt very proud of him. He has true bracco characteristics. The fact that he then went on to take best in show at the first Bracco Italiano breed club open show under a breed specialist judge, confirmed my thoughts. He is a lovely dog with the most wonderful temperament and there is absolutely nothing overdone about him. Ardenstorm Luciano Bosis is a young dog, at just over 2 years old. He was the first Brac in the UK to gain a show certificate of merit. This isnt something that's achieved easily as it is based on a points system. Again, there is nothing overdone about him and the breed specialist at the Bracco Italiano open show advised the owner that he had a true bracco head and that it is something the breed should never lose. He will look very immature in the ring at Crufts because he is competing with all the older dogs, having won his way out of graduate. He's also a working dog but a much loved pet first and foremost - as is Lucca!!!! This breed takes years to mature and they really don't come into their own until they are at least 4 years old - so Ardenstorm Luciano Bosis is the one to watch for future years!! My own girls are out of Homstar Cicero with Gunsyn - who will also be competing at Crufts I imagine. He was top UK dog for 3 years running - joint in 2007 with Lucca!! We do have some lovely examples of the breed in the UK but I know of nobody who employs a professional handler to take their dogs in the ring - although owners do seem to do a good job of showing their dogs to their best advantage and well done to them!! I will wait and see what happens on the day but I have to say that if these 2 dogs don't get placed at Crufts it will be a crying shame. I'd also like to see Luigi get placed because he is my girls' dad. I don't know if he'll be in veteran or open but I will be cheering him on too. I wish all the UK and foreign exhibitors the very best of luck on this, our very first Crufts!!! Annie |
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| langhaar |
Now then Kim you've only been on this forum a couple of weeks and look what you've started
Next time you have an opinion keep it to your breed notes, at least you get a 10% discount on your adverts writing that! |
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| Bareve |
Hi Tony No problem re apologising for mentioning me. However maybe this dog is in a class of his own in much the same way that I did mention the Sealyham. I have been speaking to three Terrier Group judges today and they all agree that this Sealyham "is in a class of his own" and is as perfect to the breed standard that "anyone" has got. So no there are dogs out there seemingly in a class of their own but they haven't been selected for exaggeration and away from a standard these dogs ARE what the breed standard requires which makes a huge difference.
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| BritAnnie |
Yes, If you have the money! Not everyone is loaded. And the Sealy DID win the Group! Funny that.
And standards are very open to interpretation. |
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| BritAnnie |
I didn't know that! Do you mean as a breed note writer there are perks? Nobody told me. 
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| Bareve |
I totally agree Annie but the point is that you do not have to be anyone special to advertise - if you have the money and the will/wish to advertise then you can - it is not elitist. And yes the Sealyham DID win the group but in the Terrier expert judge's opinion of yesterday and those that I spoke to today said the dog WAS the best one in the group...... So on these expert's comments you could also say that the advertising was a waste of time as he would have won anyway
I don't think the Pharoah had done any advertising, neither the PBGV or Whippet but I think the Bloodhound BOB was well advertised ..... guess who won the Hound Group and other placings I guess you could say that the advertisement didn't work so well then
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| BritAnnie |
Well for what it's worth I think all advertising of these top dogs should be forbidden in (at least) the last month prior to Crufts. You say it isn't elitist - but I don't have £500 to spend on an advert no matter how good my dog is - and he IS good! (I have my own reasons for not entering this year) And what other reason could one ahve for spending that amount of money on an advert - it was an obvious investment! If nothing else it leaves a bad taste in the mouth! I had heard a rumour that the Sealy was going to go BIS - but it has a 1 in 7 chance of doing so now, the odds were a lot longer before the paper came out.
And I must admit I can't see our Chairman promoting any one dog. He just wouldn't do it! He's a gentleman and a very impartial one too. BA (BritAnnie not BraccAnnie!!! lol) |
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| anniebrac |
Well, the standard poodle was advertised as was, I am lead to believe, the pap - and they both won their groups tonight!!! Having said that, I do think that both were worthy winners. However, when you get to that level in showing there is very little between all dogs because all dogs have been classed BOB.
My take on the advertising debate is that, if you have a wonderful dog that fits the breed standard, you really shouldnt have to advertise as the dog will speak for itself. Advertising is, IMHO, very elitist!! If you don't have the money you can't advertise!! Therefore an exhibitor who does not have the money to advertise is put at a disadvantage and that makes it elitist!! I definitely agree that in the month running up to Crufts no dog should be advertised. This would then make it an equal playing field - or at least go some way to becoming a level playing field. I've watched video clips of Axel on the move today and, while I think he is a fine example of the breed, there are other fine examples of the breed being shown tomorrow (sorry, today!) at Crufts. The problem I have with showing is that when a dog does a lot of winning, everybody wants a piece of it and, lets be honest here, sometimes it is not the best dog that wins on the day - its the person on the end of the lead!! That dog is then in huge demand for stud work because he wins - with little regard to what's behind him in relation to health. I therefore think that a dog should only be allowed to be shown if he has had the relevant health checks for the breed. That way at least we will know that the dog is worthy of being in demand for stud work. I do think the KC will get round to doing that as they are hot on health at the moment with all the recent publicity. Annie |
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| windem bang |
After reading all of that, once I have done my day with Buck in the ring I think I will stick to just working dogs. My opinion is that advertising is wrong. If a dog is good enough it will sell itself. The person prepared to splash the most money about should not win .......it is bad for the breed involved.
Bill T. |
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| josie |
There is advertising that happens in working dog mags as well - the number of FTCh retrievers I see, posed beside their stash of trophies... | ||||||||||||
| BritAnnie |
But they should also pass these checks, shouldn't they? - what about HD - what level would you put as a pass? Not all breeding stock is tested for this, and, by a long chalk, not all dogs in any one breed - so the breed average isn't always the best guide. Having said that I personally wouldn't breed with any dog higher than the breed average or if it has greatly uneven hips.
I agree - the same goes for FTCH's - but they don't have the same huge event as Crufts to compete in, do they? On another matter,
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| anniebrac |
Removed as what I was saying was probably not fair and correct under the terms and conditions of the forum. I apologise!
Annie |
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| anniebrac |
Removed as above. I apologise
Annie |
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| josie |
Participants in this thread are strongly advised to read the "Welcome to the Forum" post, which sets out the guidelines to participating in this forum: http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/about18.html
I'd draw your attention especially to the line concerning "everyone here is equal and everyone's opinion is valid". To clarify the forum's stance on this: It is absolutely permitted to state opinions that one dog is "better" than another, whether in conformation or working. This may lead to debate or to disagreement, but that, in turn, is permitted under the name of freedom of speech and as long as it keeps within a "rational, factual and scientific discussion". No one abdicates their right to make such claims just by becoming part of the committee of a breed club. Let's face it, that would be an infringement of their rights. Unless they make it clear that they are posting from their position in a breed club, it will be assumed they are posting their personal opinions. What is not permitted, and what the forum will not tolerate (and has on two occasions at least, banned members for in the past), are "offensive, personal insults", suppositions of a personal nature, taunting, slighting of other members and anything which could generally be summed up as "bullying". Consider yourselves all forewarned of the stance of the moderators and admins of this board.... |
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| windem bang |
Maybe it would be better if nobody bought these magazines ?
You are paying a lot of money out just to look at adverts ! Bill T. |
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| BritAnnie |
I used to buy all the house magazines, and dog papers, etc - don't any more. All the info you need for anything is on the Internet.
Axel was BOB but Yogi got the Group, G2 was an Ansona Weimar (bred by Tricia Grime),an English Springer G3 I think, and our Sharon and Freddy were G4 - RESULT!!! |
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| Bareve |
Just a very quick reply as I'm back again at Crufts - this time working !!!
The Poodle hasn't been advertised per se but he was Top Dog all breed last year so his photos have appeared simply as recognition of this award. Pap wasn't advertised - no-one has any idea who it was but Pap's are always a very strong breed with a regular input of oversea exhibitiors. And Yogi hasn't been advertised. So all in all so far the only "advertised" dog is the Sealyham. It's going to be a great BIS as so far three of the group winners have been tipped for BIS and he will not be able to do a joint three way decision
You will never stop advertising whether you all agree or not or have the money to do so. It sells over 60k copies of Dog World every week plus other copies of Our Dogs. Our Chairman of our Club has certainly promoted individually dogs within our breed and slated others but no-one has ever bothered with taking the comments further as we still feel that they can say what they want as they are also individuals too with their own entitled opinion and are not Club officials 24 hours a day. Now I'm off again - a very long day and then working thru the night to get the report done 
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| anniebrac |
Axel did win BOB and was a worthy winner. His movement was like a hot knife through butter. Ardenstorm Luciano Bosis got reserve best dog and Homstar Duccio was third in Open. Kim's bitch got best bitch and best puppy went to a Trudale puppy. Congratulations to all!!
Also, big congratulations to Sharon for Freddy - Group 4. Excellent! Annie |
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| lou |
Well, as a non Bracco, non showing person..WOW!!!!!!!that Axel dog was so gorgeous!!!!! For me the top 3 would've been the Bracco, Freddie and the Vizsla. I thought that the Bracco and Freddie stood out the most to me. The Vizsla is lovely but because he was little compared to the other 2 he didnt stand out as much to me............but then i suppose real judges see through that.
I dont understand show springers at all though. with their long ears and fluffy skirts it makes them look wobbly....and the springer spoilt the run of 'world domination' HPR style!!
well done everyone though and after seeing that Bracco I understand why this thread was started and why the first poster raved about him. Does he work as well? Louise |
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| Berry Edge |
While I can see why his movement would impress none breed people (it was the movement of Bracchi in the big ring at the Winner show many years ago that attracted us to the breed), having got a good close look at Axel yesterday I still feel he is a poor representative of the breed with some major faults. I am surprised at his record in big shows as surely judges can see past the movement and see the dog itself. Whilst not a GWp or HV person I can appreciate Freddie and Yogi's qualities and am sure that they have no major failings! | ||||||||||||
| weima |
I'm not a Bracco person but just going by movement alone I thought there were only 3 dogs in the group who could move that being the Bracco, the Viz & the GWP. They had reach & drive which was lovely to watch. these 3 dogs should IMO being 1, 2, 3 in any order of the group. No dog is without fault. | ||||||||||||
| Berry Edge |
Yes, those three certainly can move, but the breed standards don't just contain a movement clause, and the judge should be judging the dog to see if it accords with the breed standard and not just selecting the best movers!
Whilst I agree no dog is perfect, at group level the judge should be splitting hairs between the best dogs, and Imho Axel's faults would be enough to eliminate him from consideration for group places regardless of his very good (breed type) movement. |
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| taz |
Have been watching this topic with interest, it seemed to deteriorate a little and imho with some validity, however I feel that Kim really knows her stuff when it comes to the breed, and aside from being chair of the BIS, she should be allowed to voice her opinions on the breed, whether home grown dogs or not.
The Italian, breed specialist judge at the BIS first show was a little disgruntled when he saw what was being offered up for him to judge, but he rightfully imo chose the best dog on the day. Lucca is a great example of the breed and John shows him very well. My say is that at the moment, the current Italian Champ is the dog that all UK breeders should aspire to beat , if the Italians can't produce the best of breed, what hope the uk breeders? The finest looking Bracco of all time in my opinion is Peppe from the Die Sanchi Kennels, see him in action here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDvol1S961M |
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| anniebrac |
Hi there
I was trying to stay off this topic because I was getting my knickers in a twist!!!! However, I would like to make some final comments as follows:
Firstly, Kim knows no more about the Bracco Italiano than I do. Indeed, I have studied many pedigrees, researched health issues - and a lot more besides. Just because I'm not on the BIS committee, doesnt mean that I don't know what I'm talking about - honestly!!! I've owned this breed for almost 5 years so I'm well aware of the breed standard. We have some lovely up and coming youngsters that will certainly give Axel a run for his money in the future.
While I wasnt at Crufts at the weekend, I've now had a chance to look at photographs of the winners line up at breed class level and would comment as follows: While I think that Axel's movement is fabulous, as has been said above, he does have some very serious faults that should eliminate him from being placed at group level. You have to look at the whole dog and not just how it moves. In my humble opinion these are as follows: Axel is too long in the muzzle and has a distinct dip at his stop. This means that his head planes are not correct. The Bracco Italiano breed standard states that the dog must have divergent head planes. A dip at the stop means that the dog will not have the correct head planes. In the photographs I have seen he looks to be upright in the shoulder. His body is too short and he doesnt appear to have the rise and fall from the 11th vertebrae that is required in the breed standard. As I havent had my hands on him I cannot comment any further but, from what I have now seen, I do not believe that he is "what a bracco should look like" - and that's my personal opinion, but I do have the experience in the breed to be able to make those comments too!!!
As we all know, being a champion does not make you an excellent example of the breed. There are many factors at play and not all of them, in my opinion, are right and proper. The italians don't readily show their dogs. They are mostly working dogs over there. Axel is from a show kennel ie they show Italian Greyhounds, Greyhounds and Whippets and so he has been shown more widely than most other bracchi and hence has achieved the highest accolades. I have often admired the dei sanchi lines but, again, they are not widely shown. I personally won't aspire to breeding dogs that look like Axel. I will only breed to improve on what I have and that means I will be working towards breeding dogs that are as close to the breed standard as they possibly can be but, I must stress this, I will never ever compromise on health, especially as this is a developing breed in the UK. I'm not going to say any more on this subject now because I feel it have said enough. Axel did win on the day and, as I have said before, many many congratulations to him and his owners. Annie |
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| Lynn |
I know you should never judge from the ringside as your hands may tell you a completely different story.....but I did make a point of watching some of the Bracco judging because I wanted to see Axel. I saw a quality dog with a square outline which your standard asks for, and a rise and fall in the top line. If a dog can move with the reach and drive that he exhibited whilst having an upright shoulder then we might as well stop worrying about shoulders
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| anniebrac |
No, Lynn the breed standard requires an "almost square" outline - a square outline is a fault! Shoulders are very important too. A dog that is upright in the shoulder can move well but, in the field it would tire more easily. That's the reason that shoulders are important too.
THe rise and fall is not correct either but, in my opinion, the most serious fault is the long muzzle and the dip in the stop which will prevent the divergent head planes. However, everybody is entitled to their opinion and I do think he is a nice dog, not just the dog that I was hoping to see!! Annie |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
Hi all, my name's Paul, I have to just put my penny'sworth in on this whole debate which I've red with interest.
Bracco wise I saw Axel and the rbd on Saturday and would say that I agree about Axel being upright in the shoulder but I also agree with the comment about judges should be looking past movement to the whole dog. I do have bracco friends and have seen them out in Italy on my trips. Axel looks to me more like a female GSP in movement and front, true he has drive but the bracco drive is a powerful one not a light glide with springy push-off like the GSP's can come across as, he is far too square I agree and too light framed to really represent a male of this breed. Axel certainly doesn't have a true bracco front, no depth of chest. Disagree about his head, muzzle perfectly fine, stop not as pronounced as some have said, planes were actuially divergent. Saw his progeny a male, awful head, looked like calcium deficiency while young, still placed even though all over the place. I would say the rbd was nice but here, far too heavy a head (even if nice) but it would be breed bearable if he was more substantial in body and not so very short in the leg, he looks like he could topple forward at any moment, really out of proportion that one, but he is young I think as one post said, and the rest of his body should hopefully catch up. Nice movement, more true of a bracco than Axel, power there, seriously needs to bulk up- but not on his head Would have picked him or one of two other more evnly proportioned, really strong, powerful males in Open for BD. There were people ringside saying judging seemed odd, to say the very least. . . . I agree
Great to see them and the spins, worth it just for them. Well done everyone!
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| Bareve |
I'm not a Bracco owner and haven't had my hands on the dog but looking at where this lead is lying I would have to disagree with the dog being upright in "shoulder" - upperarm yes but not shoulder. JMO mind
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| Lynn |
And if you measure that photo he is very slightly longer than his height(point of buttock to point of shoulder v withers to ground) | ||||||||||||
| langhaar |
Speaking as a serious breeder Crufts gives an opportunity to compare UK stock to what the rest of the world is producing, how else can we improve if we don't do this. All dogs have faults , even the greatest but judging is about a personal opinion, no more no less.
Why so many negative comments ? First time at Crufts and a Bracco is shortlisted in the Group ? If I was an owner I'd be jumping for joy. |
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| anniebrac |
Hi there
Well, I did say that I was looking at photographs taken and didnt see the actual dog. I was commenting on what I saw from the photographs!!! I still think his body is too short, he doesnt have the correct headplanes and that he looked upright in the shoulder on the photos I saw!! He looks out at the elbows on that photo Bareve!!
I've also stated that the RBD was a youngster and that this breed doesnt come into its own until 4 years of age. RBD does look very immature next to the older dogs and I predict he is the one to watch for the future and I can assure you that he will definitely grow into his head. He's also a working dog, hence the reason he is much leaner at the moment. A young working dog in this breed (not that there are many!!!) tends to lose weight easily. My Stella looked like a rescue case until she was just over 2 years old!!!! LOL To me, the placings in Open Dog were what I would have expected. I always knew that Axel would take BD but it was a toss up between Lucca and Brac as to who got reserve and third place!! On this occasion Brac got RBD and Lucca came third. Its up to the judge. After all, he is the one who has to make the decision. IME there are always people ringside that will comment on the judge's decision (in any breed!) - and you normally find that these are the people whose dogs haven't been placed. Lets face it, we all love our dogs; we all think our dogs are the best and we all think that its our dogs that should win on the day. I'm sure everyone there thought they took the BIS home with them!!!
As it stands Axel took top honours and nobody can change that!! Well done to him. That's what I say!!!!
Annie |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
Yes, upperarm not shoulder your 100% right sorry.
langhaar, do agree, the comparisons are what it is all about but just wanted to say what I did in contribution not for sake of criticism, just opinion. Lets face it Axel is a great looking dog aside from any individual fault but we are not all going to confine ourselves to 'oh she/he's lovely" are we lol. Also just because braccos first time at Crufts no reason not to enjoy a bit of analysis . Also, not sure if bracco people would be happy just because any bracco went group, that would defeat all object of participating in showing and breeding. Yes nice it happened in Group for the breed on one level of course for sure
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| anniebrac |
I'm not jumping for joy that Axel was shortlisted for the group but I am pleased that A Bracco was shortlisted. Axel isnt perfect (no dog is!) and IMO, as a bracco enthusiast, I think there were better dogs there on the day that were overlooked in favour of Axel because of his reputation - and advertising!!! I would have been jumping for joy if a really stunning example of the breed was representing the breed!!!
Our breed has a long way to go in the UK and more needs to be done on the working side, as opposed to the showing side. I would like to see more working dogs in the ring TBH!! Annie |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
anniebrac, not sure if the rbd will gain enough in height to even all out but hope so.
Also, sometimes ringside comments are knowledgeable and not based on jealousy, or anger about palacings, I know plenty of dogs in all sorts of shows who did not get placed when they shuold have and their owners comments are valid not just being sore losers..just mean that my OD bracco preference would not have been in that order or even those dogs necessarily and I agreed with others about this at the time. that's what makes us all different, just as judges choices are as you say i was just thrilled to see so many spins and bracco in one place, that is why I went and would go again even if I still found judging choices to be weird as I am used, like most peope, to that lol |
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| anniebrac |
Hey Paul That's the reason I don't show often TBH. I just think my dogs are wonderful - despite their faults - and I would take it very personally it somebody started criticising my dog. That said, I suppose if you put yourself up then you have to take the criticism!!!! I think there are always sore losers around the show ring though. At least when you work your dog your dog has a task to do and he's graded on how effectively he carries out that task. He either does it - or he doesn't!!! That's the kind of judging I like!!! Take care and thank you for your contribution - even although I completely disagree!!!
Annie |
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| Bareve |
Well I was there Agree that the RBD was the youngest of the three but Axel is only "just" 4 and the other dog is even older.
I'm not a breed person but from what I saw on the day I would say that Axel was one of the longer bodied dogs in that Open Dog class
As for his elbows Annie - if a dog is upright in upperarm it means that the elbows aren't really in the right place and one of the results of this is that the dog looks like he is out at elbow. In much the same way I had to explain to someone at Boston the reason why the dogs looked to be out at elbow and not the reason she tried to tell me..... Conformation is conformation and the shortness and lack of layback of uppearm causes the same problems/scenario in any breed
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| langhaar |
Every ones entitled to an opinion that's what makes the dog world go round.
Haven't really been interested in this breed since working Konan with the Shaws many years ago with their first imports. We had a great day in Norfolk with Will Garfitt from the Shooting Gazette who was a gun on the day and he was very complimentary about both breeds. I can remember a cracking retrieve off a point on the edge of a wood from the bracco, very Italian- aristocratic and haughty
Since gundog day I've taken the trouble to look on Italian sites just for academic interest to see what B breeders are producing over there. That's what good dogs do, it gets their breed noticed.
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| anniebrac |
Exactly!! You have to breed to improve on what you have, working towards achieving the breed standard - but never compromising on health in order to get there. I personally wouldnt use a dog just because it was winning in the show ring, although initially I did make the mistake of thinking that because a dog wins in the show ring it is a perfect example of the breed!
I often visit the SABI site and, I have to say, that some of the dogs we have produced in the UK bear no resemblence to the dogs being produced in Italy. Having said that, the "type" does differ depending on which region in Italy you visit but, in my opinion, we are not producing quality dogs in the UK at the moment. I'm importing in 2010 from a well respected BI kennel. Don't know if I'll bring in a bitch or a dog but, tbh, I do think we have a desperate need for good stud dogs in the UK. This will bring in brand new lines. I'm really excited about it. I've waited a long time to find just the right bitch and just the right kennel!!! Annie |
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| terrier |
If a dog is capable for working ,daily not just a couple of times a season,and is bred from generations of hard working dogs then it is generally the correct shape and size.Form and function .Who gives a monkeys about what a "judge" in the show ring says???.
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| langhaar |
who gives a stuff what a judge in the field says ? are you suggesting they always get it right?
I've seen dogs gaining fts that quite frankly I wouldn't have in my kennel. |
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| terrier |
Was this a reply to my post?If so I never mentioned a judge in the field  .I was talking about show judging regarding confirmation .As in,if it does the job day in day out,and the dogs in its entire pedigee did the job day in day out,then it is built for the job.Pretty straight forward i would think
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| Claire |
Interesting thread to say the least
With regards to advertising, whilst I can understand people's view points on dogs being advertised in the run up to Crufts, it is my personal opinion that if you believe that a well advertised dog is going to be the obvious winner then you are automatically suggesting that the judge is going to be dishonest and not do their own thing  Of course it could just be that the dogs being advertised really are excellent examples of their breed and deserve to win
With regards to the Bracco, I have been a fan of this breed ever since a friend of mine imported an Italian dog several years ago, probably in 2002 or 2003 I think. Those in the Bracco world will know Leigh Smith (Arkenpoint) and she imported Alberto "Bear" (Grosso Calabrone di Ala D'Oro at Arkenpoint) who for me is a wonderful dog and a good working dog too Leigh doesn't really show as she is more into working but Bear did make it into the ring a few times and did rather well and I like him a lot 
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| windem bang |
I could probably write all I know about conformation on the back of a postage stamp. As a subject I have found much of this thread baffling.
I tended to agree with Terrier but accept that in the ring the rules change and that what is beautiful to me - a bloody good working dog - is unlikely to be what a show judge will choose. On the other hand there are unlikely to be many dogs that a show judge would give prizes to that I would fancy much as workers !
Bill T. |
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| anniebrac |
Hi there
Bear is in my Ruby's grandfather and she is a lovely example of the breed - and a great working dog too. If your girlie hadnt come into season and you'd been able to come along to the pointing test on Saturday Claire you would have seen her in action!!! Having said that she'll probably now make a real fool of my handling!!! LOL I think the dogs doing the advertising are the very best dogs but I personally just think its wrong to advertise before a big show but, hey, I might not think that if I thought I had a chance of winning!!!! LOL Annie |
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| taz |
hey Annie,
You are so right about british stud dogs, i know Bev is taking Blossom to Holland to mate her this year. I am totally biased of course but the last litter produced some lovely pups, the sister to our two won best pup, and two have qualified for next year. From the litter of 12 only 2 that i know of are being used to work, mine and a lad up in Yorkshire, a few are show only and a couple went on to be pets, so the line gets diluted. Ours are from strong lines, but are a mixture of working and show lines through the last 5 generations. A friend of ours has one of Kims last litter, a stunning orange & white bitch, and she has done very well in the show ring. We have given up showing my wife's bitch, its a total lottery from show to show and we were told that a judge at a nameless show, could not place her in AVNSC class as he didnt have a clue what the breed standard was !!!!! How unlucky was Jan at the Braccanza kennel ? She brought in a lovely looking bitch only to find she was unbreedable due to an eye problem which only materialised after the import , even though all the test results prior to import were top notch ! So im with you, we need to do all we can to further the breed by careful breeding selection. taz PS: cant make Saturday after all due to work commitments, am not happy as we really wanted to come up. |
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| anniebrac |
Hi Taz
Its a risk when you bring dogs in from Italy because the Italians, routinely do not health test. I know that Jan's bitch also had hips of 56 so that, combined with the cataracts, is not good news for Italian imports. It is a shame because you pay a lot of money importing so she must be gutted! I've known this kennel I'm dealing with now for 4 years and their dogs are top class. One of my stipulations will be that both dogs are health tested prior to breeding. I don't even care if I have to pay for it myself. I just feel if I am taking a puppy, I want to know that the dogs are healthy first and foremost. Its a working kennel I'm importing from. I get regular updates with photographs of the little bitch as she has grown up. She is spectacular and I'm more than willing to wait. All good things come to those that wait!!! The lines will be completely new lines in the UK, but well known Italian lines. I don't want to say too much just now because its early days and anything could happen.
I'm really sorry you can't make it on Saturday. There are only 3 bracchi entered in a group of 16. The rest are other hpr breeds. This is a great concern for me because we really need to keep the working ability in this breed or it will become lazy. Ruby has such natural hunting ability that its a joy to watch her work! I'm taking my camera so will try and get some good snaps and send them to you. Although I must admit, I'm no David Bailey so there may be a lot of headless pointing dogs!!!
Take care Annie |
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| Ardenstorm |
In reply to ItalianHPRFanPaul's quote about the RBD at Crufts re:
'would say the rbd was nice but here, far too heavy a head (even if nice) but it would be breed bearable if he was more substantial in body and not so very short in the leg, he looks like he could topple forward at any moment, really out of proportion that one, but he is young I think as one post said, and the rest of his body should hopefully catch up. Nice movement, more true of a bracco than Axel, power there, seriously needs to bulk up- but not on his head Would have picked him or one of two other more evnly proportioned, really strong, powerful males in Open for BD. There were people ringside saying judging seemed odd, to say the very least. . . . I agree' As the owner & breeder of the above dog I feel that certain aspects of his opinion are flawed. The Bracco does not have the 'standard' head proportions of other HPR's, when reading the ENCI Standard which is far more detailed than the K.C. standard & which I was involved in compiling, the head proportions are quite specific & I quote: ENCI, Ente Nazionale Cinofilia Italiana, Bracco Italiano Breed Standard HEAD - Angular and narrow at the level of the zygomatic arches, its length corresponds to 4/10 of the height at the withers. Muzzle depth 4/5ths of its length. This definately does give the Bracco its big heavy headed appearance. This is offset by the narrowness in skull which is another important breed point, these points limit the weight that the moderately short neck has to support. On his apparent shortness in leg, let me assure you that his leg length from floor to elbow does equal the length from elbow to withers. Dr Mentasti after judging the first BIS show in the U.K. said 'please, you must not lose this dogs head'. Mr Brian Foster (studied the Bracco in Italy) on judging Brac wrote: 'The Italian Standard brought to life'. I also must say that I gave up trying to second guess judges years ago!! I will finish with the words of the Italian Axel supporters expressed to me after judging 'you have the most beautiful young Bracco, have you a website'!!!! Praise indeed. |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
HI
Thanks for your opinion. While I appreciate you must be very proud of him, I do get the impression that as his head was totaly different from every other bracco in teh ring atCrufts, you are therefroe saying all the others were wrong and your boys right, even bordering on ideal. I did say I would still have picked him and perhaps 2 others not pplaced for the top 3, but I did find him very long in body compared to others, even Axel, who I did say I found too square lol. JMO. I have seen Italian-bred bracco at at least 11 raduni in italy, some put on by the club out there, and havekept an eye on the breed for years since it came in, in uk shows. I nevcer once saw overall proportions like that. I simply in my post mentioned my own opinion based on these expereiences, that is all. I am fully aware of the enci standard. not all bracco are 'heavy-headed' as you say, look at Axel, planes correct and head proportions also correct. Look at all the others in teh ring on saturday. Well done, you should be pleased, regardless of others' (jncl judges as you say)opinions which are not always invalid or perhaps even 100% correct either...
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| Claire |
I'm not going to get into the discussion about this particular dog because I haven't seen him so it wouldn't be right however I would just like to say that just because a dog "looks different" to the rest doesn't make him incorrect
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
of course not claire, but it is the differences that make it interesting for everyone interested in showing, and by your argument, nor does a dogs differences make it better than the others | ||||||||||||
| weima |
Judging is subjective that's why different dogs win under different judges. Each judge interprets the standard as they see it whether we agree or not. Judges should be judging to the UK standard of any breed & no other standard IMO. | ||||||||||||
| anniebrac |
The UK Bracco Italiano Breed Standard.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/90 A condensed form of the ENCI standard in that it doesnt get down to the actual measuring of the dog. Apart from that, it is the same as the ENCI standard. The UK Standard is the standard that should be used by judges in the UK. The ENCI standard is the standard used in Italy. Now, if we are talking about italian dogs, then of course the Italian breed standard will apply. I think that your opinions would have more "weight" Paul if you actually owned a bracco - or had judged a bracco class and had your hands on some dogs. Merely watching Bracchi at an event doesnt count as your opinion of a dog can change if you have your hands on it!!!
I've spent a lot of time researching the breed, health, pedigrees etc., - both UK and european and I know a good dog when I see one!! I'm not saying Axel is a bad dog. Indeed, he is a nice dog and he got BOB, something you can't take away from him. However, he doesnt have the correct divergent head planes which makes his head wrong for the breed. RBD has correct head and is a better dog in my opinion - as was Lucca who was placed third. However, this is just my opinion as a bracco owner and enthusiast FWIW. We can all have our opinions but its the opinion of the judge that counts!! Axel - BOB, Brac - RBD, Lucca - 3rd. End of story!!! Kind regards Annie |
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| weima |
Have you had your hands on dogs Anniebrac? I have to say as I am interested in the breed that I have felt quite sorry for the breed at shows in their first year of having classes. It seems to me like show societies give the classes to anyone who may be able to judge them rather than to breed people. I know if a breed person judges them the entry could be down a little but I do feel you deserve judges who are interested in the breed rather than someone who it is just another appointment. |
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| anniebrac |
LOL! I would never be picked as a judge Claire for just the reasons you state!!! I'm no breed "expert" but have had the hounds now for almost 5 years and have had my hands on a few dogs.
We've had a couple of breed judges in our first year but that's about it really!! I agree, quite sad! Examining a breed standard and putting that into practice is quite different from having somebody with a real passion for the breed. I expect it happens with every breed though and I think its often more about politics than the best person for the appointment!! Best wishes Annie |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
Having had my hands on probably over 300 bracchi inthe last 20 years anniebrac I stick to my experienced opinon thanks which I stressed here is just that, my opinion, like yours. I dont get into oneupmanship. I don't know how many times you've been out to see them inItaly over the last 20 years and gotyour hands on them- the italians welcome this from enthusiasts and as they themselves said to me many years ago, you don't need to grow coffee to get an opinion on the taste.
Agree weima, judging in uk pitiful of the bracco but much better on spins, getting there but still divisive imho. tHere is some laughter in italy about the bracco breed club over here appointin judges who have just 'owned the breed 5 years' and showed 'at least 20 times in that period and attended a seminar' lol these people now make up b list specialist appointments and have it seems mmost shows sown up.. . . . |
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| langhaar |
Ah folks don't know a front Axel from a back Axel eh
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| anniebrac |
Me thinks there is an imposter in our midsts. One who is not being entirely honest as to his name!!!!! If you're that enthusiastic, why don't you own one then?????????
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
my name is indeed paul so I don't know what you mean or why. i have said my opinions on this debate i dont answer silly questions from people who have nothing better to contribute than that | ||||||||||||
| Ardenstorm |
Paul, the generalisation about the BIS judging list: this is the minimum requirement for inclusion, there are people on that particular list with many more years of Bracchi experience. Also I must say that every Club has to start somewhere & if the Club wanted to have members & enthusiasts to judge the breed, gain experience, then the bar needed to be at an attainable level for the members. As you are so interested in the breed why are you not on our judging list? As to the laughter in Italy, well give me their names & I can have a discussion as to why! Your comment about having your 'hands on' 300 Bracchi in the last 20 years must mean that you judge at a high level in the U.K? By the way do you own Bracchi
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| anniebrac |
so you've now gone from having bracco friends and seeing them out on your trips to Italy - to - having had your hands on over 300 and slagging off the breed club here in the UK. Shame on you!!!! The thing about forums is that you can be anybody and say anything!! |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
oh dear. I did not 'slag off' uk club i said there is laughter in italy about the judge requirements of the uk club
yes that is right i have bracco frineds and yes i have seen them out in italy and yes i have over teh last 20 years had my hands on probably that numberr mentioned, i have spent most of each year out there but i see no need to say anything more than that, for some reason you choose not to agree with my opinions thats fine but you two last posters are lookin for trouble, if you dont like what i have written best get over it there really isnt anything more to say from me to you both obviously lol |
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| ItalianHPRFanPaul |
actualy the thing about forums is you can be nobody and say nothing of interest ahem | ||||||||||||
| windem bang |
I know nothing about this breed but hope to go to see them work this Saturday. How many of you breed enthusiasts will be there working their dogs for all to see ?
As I understand it out of a possible entry of 15 -16 at an event ran by Bracco enthusiasts , only 3 -4 of the entries will be Braccos. Plenty of dogs managed to go to Crufts - why such a poor showing for what the dogs are meant for - bred for ????????? Or are they being bred for dog shows ? Bill T. |
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| josie |
Guys, I'm really disappointed that you haven't managed this thread very well. This thread started to go downhill here:
It continued downhill here:
And here:
And here:
And here:
And here:
If you're responsible for any of the above comments, please consider yourselves sufficiently warned. Anything further of this type is likely to result in your being banned from the forum. Again, it appears that no one read the link which I posted several pages back (http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/about18.html, or if they did, they appear not to have noticed the paragraph which reads: "everyone here is equal and everyone's opinion is valid - from someone who got their puppy yesterday to an old hat who has 30 years experience. So - people who are new to HPRs should not feel obliged to preface every post with "I'm just a lowly novice", eating humble pie till they throw up, but should just come right out and say what they think. And people who have 30 years experience should use it to guide others in a non-confrontational way, while remembering that once there was a day when they had their first puppy, too." Please consider: The sort of "I am going to silence you, because I know more than you, because I am more experienced than you, therefore I am right" line of arguing is very low. It achieves nothing by way of understanding more about the subject concerned (whether a breed, a training method or anything else) because it always degenerates into a quest to argue the superiority of one's own position by asserting that one has more of a right to one's opinion than anyone else. It is the diversity of co-existing yet conflicting opinions which makes for a democratic and interesting forum here, wherein people can pick and choose what they agree with and what suits them. Please have respect for someone else's opinion, even if you disagree with them and believe you know more than them. If you want to take issue with them, please do so factually, and not by calling them "silly" or by attempting to diminish them in public by implying they know less than you. I'm going to leave this thread unlocked and I hope it will not continue as above. |
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| terrier |
You naughty,naughty boys and girls
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| langhaar |
June Laing had a team of Brachii in The Borders Bill , they were part of her picking up team for Wilson Young. Peter O Driscoll told me once how good and reliable they were, especially on runners that ran far, far back. Can't get a better example than that this breed is a credible working addition to the gundog group. Like all new breeds increasing the number of enthusiasts who are willing to go down the dual-purpose road is very very slow, as we have experienced in Longhairs. It took decades for shorts and wires to become firmly established, so it will be for these two breeds. We don't trial very often because quite frankly we can't afford it. Importing a dog is a minimum of 4 figures, then health checks and campaigning in the ring and the field is another. I'm sure the owners of Brachii understand all too well the costs involved in establishing a new breed into the UK. I will say tho it was important for us to prove imported stock in the ring and in the field before we bred from their bloodlines. To us , we can say our German bloodlines are UK PROVEN dual purpose. How many Brachii have stud book numbers thro FTA's ? GLP's have 15. It will be interesting next year when both breeds are being judged by an Italian
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| Bareve |
I've only seen two Bracci working and they were on a shot over day and they put up a pretty decent performance all day.
However I've never seen any in F/T's or working tests which is a shame when you keep hearing how good they are back in Italy. Everything to do with dogs is expensive but we cut down on entering the number of little shows so that I had more time and money to do working tests and F/T's to prove that despite our shows wins our dogs were more than capable of working. |
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| windem bang |
Both showing dogs and trialing dogs is expensive. It often seems however that many of those who claim to have dual purpose dogs do so with no foundation to their claims.
Certainly to compete in ,lets say two trials ,would be expensive. When I trialed I found the trial itself to be the tip of the iceberg where expense was concerned ! I could not begin to add up how much work at overtime rates I turned down in order to spend money on petrol and boot leather taking my dogs out to train them day after day often 50 miles from home. I know trialing is expensive - often for not very much in the way of returns. I have been sitting here,trying to remember,trying to add things up. I will miss out on anything other than 1st. places - I only ever trialed two H.P.R.'s -- one Brittany who would not nowadays be allowed into a showring as she was "the wrong type" or had the "wrong conformation!" Brenda - try asking Wilson Young or Peter O'Driscoll what she worked like. She ran the hills at Lauder with their dogs and did a lot of picking up down that way too. She won at Crufts back then though so I think you could say she was "proven dual purpose" in fact ,not just in type of breed. I am not certain but I think she ran in 9 trials of which she won 3. The G.S.P. also won in the showring - with someone else handling !
She also ran in 7 trials (I think ) and won 2 of them. I make that something like a total of 16 trials for 5 first places. I ran both of these bitches and one dog in a total of 4 Spring Pointing Tests , the results were , if I remember correctly - 2 Goods (the Britanny) and 2 Very Goods (the two G.S.P.'s) I spent money to get those results and I spent a great deal of thought, time and effort. Probably because of that ,I find it irritating when people who claim they don't have the time or the money to trial do manage to find the money to go all over the country to shows on a regular basis. They still claim to have dual purpose dogs but they only ever prove one side of that claim. Damn - I'm back on my hobby horse again !
Bill T. |
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| langhaar |
You're making me hanker for the season to start again ! What better place for a hard running dog than Lauder.I've seen all breeds of pointers on those moors who took my breathe away!
From our own point of view I think we have proved our bloodlines in the UK having had 3 imported German dogs who have gained UK FT awards and their progeny too. Now we can take a step back and hope we have set a standard other owners will follow. |
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| windem bang |
I have much the same hope but only because my legs won't do it anymore ! I have been considering selling Buck for a while now because I just can't do him justice............On the other hand I'd miss watching him go !
I am still waiting for route instructions to the venue for the Bracco Spring Pointing Test tomorrow. I have got a pretty good idea of where to head for. I've worked my dogs there and taken a training class or two there many years ago. I'm looking forward to it but I doubt my walking ability on those hills now ! I hope to meet Peter and Wilson again at the Open pointer/setter trial at Amulree in a couple of weeks time. I'll give them your regards. Bill T. |
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| Claire |
Well I am absolutely gutted that I cannot make the test tomorrow, flippin bitches in season So I'm going to consol myself with a lovely lunch with Claire R instead
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| windem bang |
I know the feeling ever so well ! For about twenty years I worked only bitches - better in some ways but their seasons are a pain in the bazzoombly  I just made that word up - did you guess ? 
Bill T. |
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| anniebrac |
Hiya
Well, with Ruby I'm the other way. I train her because I can't show her as she has an overshot jaw. With Stella I do try to do both though. I have shown her at champ shows locally and she has been placed on each occasion but I just don't really like the politics that surround showing tbh. On the other hand, I would really like to trial my dogs rather than just work them locally on informal shoots, but I find it quite daunting going along on my own. If I had a buddy I certainly would make the effort to trial my bracs, because they are more than capable of doing it. I wonder if the politics that surrounding showing, surround trialling as well. Is that the case? |
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| weima |
Anything competetive has politics so FT is just the same as showing IME. However, I do enjoy partaking in both. |
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| windem bang |
I agree with Weima but when I trialed the bitching was not as bad as in the showring - I don't know for sure what things are like now.
I.M.O. the bitching doesn't really happen too much except perhaps between kennels who are trying to make names for themselves. Bill T. |
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| terrier |
I like the point of only talking about 1st place,i was always told that 2nd place is 1st last :lol:Some of These "dual purpose" dogs,are they the ones sold as suitable for work ,show or pet?.I always thought that those 3 words really ment "hedging your bets",ie if you`ve got the brass then i`ve got just the pup for you!come on in!! | ||||||||||||
| windem bang |
I have always kept dogs suitable for work and pet - if they showed too then that was fine but it wasn't what I insisted on !
The "suitable for work ,show or pet " ads have always annoyed me - I always felt that whoever had the pups for sale was probably a bit of a chancer ! If you are in a competition ,think about the film "Highlander" and its saying, " There can be only one !" That is not the case in a Spring Pointing Test but it sure is in a trial ! Bill T. |
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| Ravenspoint |
Hope you have good weather for the Pointing Test tomorrow John and have a great day for everone who is going. I wish I could be there too.
Lois |
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| Bareve |
Now "aint that the truth"
I've always found the F/T people very supportive at a trial as we all know what it's like to be up there doing it. But if you did find yourself successful then be careful of the "green eyed monsters" in your breed who will not like it and come up with their own version of the day to attempt to discredit your dog's wins
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| langhaar |
Please give Peter my regards Bill, go out with pointers still with peregrines , bitches out of Dave Amsden's breeding. This breed still has a place in my heart .Would love to know what happens on the BIS SP day.
Went up to Moray in August, 3 months after a new knee. Frustrating, you can't use a zimmer on a moor Seem to be going off thread here oops!
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| windem bang |
You are forgiven I do that all the time ! ........And the older I get the more I do it !!!
I have written a brief account of todays grouse test in Bucks Diary. I hasten to add that this is the way I saw things and the way I felt about things. Others may feel differently - - - but I'll still be right !
It was one of those days that I will always remember - a pleasure to be out there, a pleasure to try to do that kind of thing again after about a 16 years absence and a pleasure to meet some really nice new people and a few "old" friends too after so many years. To anyone on this forum who has not worked a grouse moor - get out there and do it ! There is nothing quite like it in this world - - - - even on a howler of a day in mid-March !!! Bill T. |
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