guy
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breeding biddabilityIn another thread there was a (not unfounded) suggestion that the Brittany could do with a 'bidability' injection. (my words but i think they sum up the argument)
Now - say i was a breeder wishing to develop this aspect of my line - does anyone have any suggestions on how to select a pup from a litter when a, you cannot keep them all until old enough to display their temperament / ability, b, there is a queue of people at the door wishing to take a puppy home at 8 weeks so deciding which pup to keep has to be done at quite an early stage.
Getting a feel for it's 'drives' is sorted by Volhard; but how could one measure biddability objectively? and make sure it was a measure of the dog not of the haandlers ability with the dog.
Is it as simple as measuring eye contact?
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BritAnnie
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Biddability is just another trait to be bred for - ensure the dam and sire are both biddable and there's a fair chance most of the pups will be too. I train my baby pups from weaning by whistling recall for their meals and also the stop just as I put the bowls down. You can tell the biddable ones at that stage. If you whistle a recall just after they have fed the ones that hesitate or don't come at all are possibly not so biddable. Or is that too simplified?
Annie
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cressy
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I guess it depends how we class biddability????
When I selected my last pup (ok deerhound so not quite on the same wavelength) I chose the pup who had the most initiative and who wanted to initiate human interaction the most, Brice is now a pretty biddable dog but he also is capable of independant thought.
So is biddability a trait we can breed in without losing the essence of independant thought that makes so many HPR breeds desirable?
Is it an environmental influence that starts with the breeder building a good canine/human relationship right from the outset so the pups understand that they work in partnership?
Or do we use it as an excuse for not having the relationship we really want with our dogs??
I have three dogs at the moment. Brice I have known since he was 3/4 days old, he is biddable and a joy to train. Mugi I have had 6 months and he is aged 10.5, I class him as biddable and although his education is lacking in certain aspects he wants to please and he gets most of his reward from interaction with humans. Freddy the welshie is not in anyway biddable - he is challenging and any time he does what I want I pick myself off the floor before praising him to the hilt. He is the most loving dog but it is all on his terms and agenda, sometimes I really do not exist in his world. Freddy was abused and I do not know what would have happened had I had him from puphood but biddable - nope    . Freddy will be the dog who has had the most training time invested in him per day/week/month but it has made not the scrap of difference to his biddability although in terms of being a well rounded pet dog it has paid huge dividends. Brice has had the least training time but in sheer willingness to work with me he will put so much effort in to any training session he has.
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windem bang
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Hi Guy,
This is a pet hobbyhorse of mine, but I certainly don't have any easy answers. Unless someone has a better idea , I think you are back to basics again. Tests, trials, assessments etc.--- If you can spot a dog ,not neccessarily winning, but doing well pretty consistently with a not too good handler , I think that dog is probably biddable and blessed with a lot of natural ability.
All you have to do then is approach the dogs owner and say,"I want to mate my bitch to your dog 'cos you're a rotten handler !!" When you get out of hospital you could ask again more diplomatically !
I don't know of any sure fire way of choosing a puppy with the magic biddability ingredient. You really are dependant on the breeder having done this job for you just as well as he/she can. I wish it was possible to have the parents "biddability certified" as can be done for other hereditary defects. Again , to my way of thinking, the only way to gain any idea of a pups likely degree of biddability is to go by the sire and dams track record for work.
For what it's worth my own way of choosing a puppy from 7 weeks onwards is to see how often it will go for a small ,white article , like a knotted hanky. If possible I will take the pup that most often picks up the article and engages with me, (I sit on the ground.) I like a pup that will come to me with its' "treasure" when encouraged to.
This does NOT guarantee biddability but at least I will be unlikely to be taking home an "iffy" retriever, one problem solved, maybe ?!!
Choosing a pup if you do not know the parents capabilities is a real minefield. You can be lucky or you can have a disaster area for years to come. You already know how I try to minimize the risk.
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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guy
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I chose Topaz - well he chose me, he was the only puppy who really took an interest in me.
Whether he is biddable for a brittany or not - I don't know, he learns very quickly but falls down on staying focussed on what i want him to do. Well that is my perception. Maybe as he gets better my expectations rise?
Ellie learns very quickly as well, perhaps because she has a role model?? but she to will only stay on message for very short while before her mind wanders. She starts to pootle about whereas Topaz starts to hunt.
This is becoming a semantic minefield  - what is the difference between 'biddability' and 'ability to be disciplined'? (as to follow a learned regime not take punishment)
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josie
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Thinking outside the box here - it just strikes me that what WB is calling "biddability" is the ability to remain interested in, and able to respond to, the handler when surrounded by very distracting gamey scents which are competing with the dog's attention.
That is - in terms of "where is the reward coming from?", the reward for a hard-hunting dog is scent, game, hunting. If you want a dog like that to listen to a handler under those circumstances, the handler is either going to have to reward the responses he likes and gradually increase the distractions so that he remains in control in an ever-increasingly distracting environment, OR use punishment to punish the responses he doesn't like so they occur less frequently. That is - either way - this form of "biddability" is trained.
If we are talking about biddability which is naturally there anyway, ie choosing a pup which just likes being close to humans, is naturally less interested in distractions than in humans - I would be afraid such a pup wouldn't be a good hunter. (Perhaps this doesn't apply to Brits though!!) Because, to be a good hunter, I'd be looking for the pup which goes off and explores, which is confident, independent and bold, perhaps the pup which is the first to do everything. If a pup is already naturally so interested in humans before any sort of training (humans = rewards if you do right or humans = punishment if you do wrong), how much more interested in humans is that pup going to become when they are the source of treats, praise, retrieves, discipline etc, and to what extent will hunting and initiative suffer?
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mcelkek
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That's an interesting thought Josie. I would choose a pup that comes to me for the same reasons. I reckon that a pup that will approach me as a stranger is bold and unafraid to check out new things including a tall strange man invading his space. Therfore I would believe that the pup will become keen to explore the outside world and hopefully become a strong hunter.
Keith.
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cressy
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Equally Jo - unless you have managed to view the pups from the point they have had no concept of humans then pups who are happy to meet and greet are possibly demonstrating that the breeder has done a good job ensuring the pups see humans as rewarding????
With regards to Brice, he seemed to like humans from about 2.5 weeks, he would greet all new humans boldly and I think that is part of his enquiring mind. He greets all new experiences as something to try. Compared to his littermates that I have had contact with (1 brother and two sisters) he is by far the boldest BUT he has had many more opportunities than they have too.
When looking for a new pup I need to know pup is bold, inquisitive and socially adept with his littermates. I just can't see a way to breed in biddability as IMVHO hunting dogs need initiative and ability to think on the move. As handlers we need to build in that relationship with our pup that will ensure we are giver of all good things and that must include the fact that we give the opportunity to hunt etc.
I am looking forward to my new pup as I know I am in for a challenge - I will probably be eating my words soon too as Mugi has quite possibly spoilt me as he is soooooo good .
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josie
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Yes, v interesting and true Sue re - even little pups have had the chance to learn that people can be rewarding. But maybe, even within a litter, you will see differences...and they would have had the same exposure to people in the same litter?
Having said all this, when we went to pick Slate up, I remember feeling hurt that she preferred hurtling up and down with her litter sister to coming to see me. And now I'd say she is very fixed on me as the centre of everything, is quite aloof to other dogs, and she could get out more with her hunting LOL!!!
I think it's a bit of a minefield really!!!!
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DesO'Neile
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This is the very reason that 16 years ago I began to look for an influx of foreign blood for my pointers. Whatever else I got I got biddability/trainability. It is also why Basso has just arrived from Denmark and another dog is due in October from the same source. Basso is a very laid back pointer and very biddable but I can already see that he has been handled in, not exactly a totally different way, but a significantly different way. Some of the things I want him to do will take time a lot more time than if I had had him from a pup. He is still biddable though. I can see that it will now be worth getting a bitch from the same line and the pups can drop out of their mother into my hand.
Cressy.
If biddability and capability of independent thought are even on the same scale, I would suggest that there is a good bit of the ruler in between.
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windem bang
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This is a very big and very complex subject, I have read with great interest the thoughts of the other forum users. There does seem to me that there is a breed inheritance of biddability or willingness to please. Some breeds are easier than others to train the basic commands to and as a general rule will usually try to please their handlers by doing as they are told rather than doing as they might wish. If this is true of individual breeds , then perhaps it is true of individual "lines" of dogs within a single breed ?
This would mean nature made them that way as opposed to nurture. I do not usually find that dogs with a strong willingness to please are inferior hunters. I would go as far as to say that in my experience, the opposite is the case. Everything the dog does WITH me increases its willingness to try to do more. The simple fact that I know I can trust the dog to respond in my favour whenever I think it neccessary to interfere with the dogs natural working ability, gives me the confidence needed to let the dog work further and further out. As we work we are thinking of each other and in a sense "feeding" off each other. I don't know if any of that made any sense to you, but I know what I mean !!
There comes a time in the life of most working dogs, especially where work or obedience to commands is concerned at a distance, where a dog must learn not only that it should do as it has been taught but that it MUST do as it has been taught. Obviously a dog that has been taught by a good trainer will probably respond well. A keen dog with a not quite so good trainer may also do well though , if it is willing to please.
I am not nearly well enough aquainted with many of the h.p.r. breeds to be able to say how willing to please they are as individual breeds. I will say that of the two h.p.r. breeds I have owned the g.s.p. is easier to train than the brittany because it pays more heed to its handler and is not quite so "self" orientated. It has,as a general rule, more willingness to please.
Oh well, back on with the tin hat and flak jacket!
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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munstyman
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You are right W.B. This is a huge subject, often made more complicated by the words used, biddability, train ability, obedience which mean slightly different things to different people. I actually have had to change one of the testing category titles from biddability to co-operation for the working testing scheme as the definition provided in the German tests seemed more suitable in this context, although this too is from a personal perspective, mine .
To me biddability is the description of the entire package of the dogs thought processes. It should show a willingness to work within a `team' structure, learning for the most part but teaching as well. It has already been mentioned that good trainers can get heaps more out of these, or any dogs. Having seen many handlers having problems with their dogs over the years, it has quickly become apparent that it is often the handlers that need to be more `biddable', in that the dog has tried to communicate but this communication has fallen on deaf ears and shown no inclination of being understood. Is it any wonder that the dog then gives up trying to work as a team member and sods off to do its own thing, and then gets a reputation for being not biddable 
Further to this argument, why is it that successful retriever and spaniel trainers find the HPR group much more difficult to get to grips with  My opinion is simply that our dogs have been bred for generations to have independent thinking ability, where as the other groups have had generations of this being bred out until now all you get is immature automatrons  ( Too far the other way)
I would agree that some breeds and some lines within breeds have taken their eye of the ball with regard to biddability, and probably allowed very indepently minded dogs to develope, after all they tend to find game faster without having to be hindered by doing the bidding of a mere `monkey'. And how many times have we all heard that `game finding' is of the utmost importance, and therefore what better excuse do you need to breed from this type 
Peter
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windem bang
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Hi Peter, I was just about to write in to the forum disagreeing with one of your statements when a 30 year old memory popped into my peanut !
A man I used to consider as ancient , who was a labrador trialler and judge, once said to me , " The trouble with trial labs. today is that there are too many f*****g good labrador trainers !" He was referring to people like me, the up and coming generation. Us smart young whippersnappers were training labradors to go out long distances for blinds and to do so in a straight line with no hunting en-route. When the labrador arrived in the fall area, it could be easily stopped on the whistle and then be handled onto the proverbial sixpence.
He felt we were driving the breed in the wrong direction and we were doing it by winning trials by "sheepdogging" and then breeding from the best sheepdogs. I thought he was wrong at the time but now I am not so sure. Certainly there are still lines of field trial labs. that find game with minimal help from their handlers but I have seen in the last 20 years or so, just too many labs. that look often to their handlers for directions without the handler having first stopped them on the whistle.
When I first noticed this I put it down to overtraining. Now I am beginning to think some of the lab. lines are just a bit too "soft."
I now think my old friend was right and I wish he was still around to tell him so. Speaking for myself I no longer try to train "onto a sixpence," but will put the dog into the fall area and simply "Hi-lost" it. If I think a dog of mine is becoming too handler dependent I refuse to help it in the fall area even to the extent of deliberately turning my back on it while calling "Hi-lost!"
This is very rarely a problem for me though as most of my picking-up is done among rhodedendron thickets where I can't see my dogs at all after they have gone three feet !!
It's very difficult hitting the right balance between controlled working and sheepdogging, isn't it ?!!
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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windem bang
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P.S. - I almost forgot Peter, some good lab. trainers do have difficulty when trying to train h.p.r.'s but the same is also true in reverse. I know one or two very good h.p.r. trainers having trouble trying to reach the top in lab. trials. Often their difficulty lies not with the retrieving but with the vey high standard of heelwork required to win in a retriever trial.
Not too many h.p.r.trainers appreciate just how well these dogs are trained to walk or sit/stay to heel while temptation falls all around them. A dog could easily be in line under the judges for half an hour. If the handler gives his dog ANY extra command after the initial HEEL when joining the line until it is required to retrieve , the dog is likely to be out of the trial. I was an obedience trainer and I found this level of heelwork difficult to maintain. It may look simple but it certainly is not !
I am not trying to imply you thought it was easy Peter but I do get fed up hearing h.p.r. people telling me how easy retriever work is by comparison. It is certainly different but it isn't easy, not at that level.
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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munstyman
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W.B wrote:
| Quote: | | It's very difficult hitting the right balance between controlled working and sheepdogging, isn't it ?!! |
No arguments here My eyes were opened when walking into Highclere last year when one of the international retriever teams were practicing on one of the approach fields. Naturally I was interested to see the standard...boy was I disappointed For retrievers having to be handled onto a simple seen retrieve I nearly choked on my bacon roll 
| Quote: | | If I think a dog of mine is becoming too handler dependent I refuse to help it in the fall area even to the extent of deliberately turning my back on it while calling "Hi-lost!" |
Me too, with one exception, I don't turn my back, that would be like giving my munsties the green light to go hunting 
My first bitch put me firmly in my place at one working test, in a run off. She was sent for a blind in cover, quickly found, picked it and headed back, I was feeling smug and the judge and I started to talk as you do when your over confident On seeing I was not giving her the attention she deserved, she promptly stopped spat out the dummy and went over to a nearby bush and peed Lesson learnt 
Of all the dogs I have had, and as I have hinted at in previous posts, this bitch I would of described as being the least `biddable' of all my dogs. However, was it her breeding or my lack of communicating at her level that gave this impression My dogs since have all been extremely biddable to me is this coincidence or better breeding
| Quote: | | I know one or two very good h.p.r. trainers having trouble trying to reach the top in lab. trials. |
I would agree, but my emphasis was on training to a decent shoot standard, not the very top, I would be very suprised to see a decent hpr trainer struggle with a retriever the same way as I have experienced in reverse, Afterall there is alot more going on in the head of a Versatile, than in your average retriever Unless of course as trainers they get easily bored with the repetition
Peter
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BritAnnie
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I am beginning to wonder if this Forum should be renamed from "Working HPRs" to "Trialling HPRs".
I am sure there are a great many people on here who are aspiring to train their dogs for working with either birds or guns, but would not wish, or parhaps would not have the time, to push their dogs to the levels being discussed.
However, having said that, it all makes for very interesting reading so many thanks to the trialling folk on here.
Annie
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josie
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I don't think there's any difference in the control (biddability) required for a _good_ working dog (non-competitive) and that required for a dog which is going to trial.
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DesO'Neile
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Sorry Josie, but there is a vast difference in the control required for competition and work in so much that only one lapse will send you home.
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BritAnnie
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That's what I meant, but it is still valuable reading.
Annie
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windem bang
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Hi Peter, I was amused by your story concerning your smugness costing you a place in a test. I saw a similar thing happen in a retriever test. A young lab. bitch made a really good job of a long range run-off retrieve and was probably going to win the test. The handler got a bit blas'e and turned to talk to the judge as his dog returned. He missed seeing his bitch swap the dummy for a big empty beer bottle. By the time his attention returned to the dog, she was giving him the bottle. This was a man not noted for his sense of humour and he was noted for his stinginess. He got very annoyed at our comments concerning him leaving the test early in order to collect 3d. on the bottle !!
I was also interested when you said the Munsterlander bitch concerned was possibly the least "biddable" member of this breed you have owned and brought up again the question of nature or nurture. Was this bitch of the same breeding lines as your later dogs ? In other words do you think your relative lack of experience was a possible cause of her lack of biddability or do you think this was due mainly to her breeding?
I am not very sure that I am correct in the following but that I can think of ,only two or three people have made a reasonably good job of "converting" from labrador trials to h.p.r.trals. I cannot think of any h.p.r. handlers who have managed to do the same in reverse. I know of one very good h.p.r. handler who is currently trying to emulate his undoubted success in h.p.r. trials with labradors but so far without success. Where retriever trials are concerned, it is often not other competitors dogs you have to beat but the other competitors. This is, I think, less often the case in h.p.r. trials. I hope that last bit made sense !
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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josie
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| DesO'Neile wrote: | | Sorry Josie, but there is a vast difference in the control required for competition and work in so much that only one lapse will send you home. |
One lapse will send you home on some shoots too! Perhaps only at the end of the day, never to be invited back, but the same thing really!
Personally, whether I was going to compete with a dog or was going to trial it, I'd still aim for absolute and total control and obedience. I wouldn't lower my standards and accept less than total obedience in training from a dog which is "just" going to work on a shoot. It's then a slippery slope to a total lack of control. I don't think anyone ever gets total and complete forever obedience, but there's no harm in aiming for it!
I think it's a bit offensive towards shoots actually, to suggest that trialling dogs are a category apart and should be far better controlled than "just" shooting dogs. "Just" shooting dogs do a good day's work and perform a useful job. A GOOD dog which is "just" worked (if you read my underlining above under the word GOOD, it was for a reason) will be under just as much control as a trial dog.
From the vast number of dogs, especially beating dogs, I've seen running awol on shoots, I know that not everyone has intentions of reaching this standard with dogs which are "just" worked on shoots. However, I wouldn't class these as "GOOD" working dogs, because part of that package to me is good control!
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weima
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| josie wrote: |
Personally, whether I was going to compete with a dog or was going to trial it, |
Is competing & trialling not the same thing?
| josie wrote: | | I think it's a bit offensive towards shoots actually, to suggest that trialling dogs are a category apart and should be far better controlled than "just" shooting dogs. "Just" shooting dogs do a good day's work and perform a useful job. A GOOD dog which is "just" worked (if you read my underlining above under the word GOOD, it was for a reason) will be under just as much control as a trial dog. |
Well I have a dog that is a trial dog & I cannot take her on shoots. I take her to one where is picks up but even then I have to watch her like a hawk. The youngster, I can take on shoots & she does 2 a week but I doubt she will be trialled. I think the difference with mine are is the competitiveness. Pagan is sooooo competitive so has to be watched 100% of the time whereas Quba isn't so much although she has proved to be an excellent gamefinder.
I too have seen dogs running wild on shoots which is very annoying as some people just seem to take dogs irrespective of whether it has done any training etc. 'Just' shooting dogs may be because their owners arfe not competitive & don't want to trial but they may still have an excellent shooting companion.
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lagopuslagopus
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Josie - I quite agree with you. I do both working and trials (some) and would expect the same behaviour from the dog at both.
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windem bang
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I completely agree with Des on this, one error on either your part or the dogs can be enough to send you home in a trial. The error may be of a kind that most people would not even notice far less send you home for on a shoot.
If you are picking -up on a shoot and your dog whines you tell it to be quiet and since you are likely to be a good distance away from anyone else, nobody is any the wiser that the dog has whined or that you have given an extra command. The same can be said for a dog that moves a little while waiting to be sent to retrieve. The dogs movement and your extra command just would not be noticed. In a trial these things would be noticed and while they may not, especially in an h.p.r. trial, get you instantly eliminated, they could put you among the ranks of those "not required."
I am sure Des will correct me if I'm wrong on this, I have been told that in a pointer/setter trial it is possible to be "no longer required" if your dog makes one or two downwind turns while hunting. I see this fault often in h.p.r. trials but I have yet to see a dog put out for it, downmarked a little, yes, but not out.
By comparison with the other gundog breeds , h.p.r.'s are marked pretty leniently in trials. Extra commands, dogs a bit out of control, an occasional whine, downwind turns, less than perfect steadiness to flush ,these are all things that would probably earn you an early bath in the trials of other gun dog breeds. Just one h.p.r. could exhibit all of these faults in an h.p.r. trial and not only still be in the trial, it could actually get placed ! I would not like to see h.p.r.'s marked just as stringently as other breeds for we are asking quite a lot from just one dog, but if you do get put out in an h.p.r. trial , at least you can console yourself by thinking that if you had been in a trial for one of the other breeds, you would have been out much sooner !!
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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josie
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"Is competing & trialling not the same thing?"
Yes, sorry that was a typo, I meant to say "compete with a dog or work it".
WB - If you are picking up on a shoot and your dog whines, and you need to keep telling it to be quiet, then your dog is going to be very annoying to people around you, other pickers up (some of whom think whining can catch on to other dogs), and to the guns who have paid to shoot without hearing a dog constantly whining. I do think the whining thing is a bit misleading though because I'm not sure it can come under "control" or "biddability" as many people think it is genetic and not conscious.
As for a dog moving a bit while waiting to be sent to retrieve, this would just deteriorate further if the dog is sent on retrieves after moving a bit, soon it'll be moving a bit every time and then pretty soon you'll have a dog sometimes running in and then no control at all. This isn't a "good" working dog either and wouldn't be an asset to a shoot. It's a slippery slope and I think it's a mistake to aim lower with "just" a working dog, because we will always get less than what we aim for.
As for HPR trials, I've heard of dogs being put out for all of the faults you mention. I'm sure they're not always, but I don't think I'd want to count on always having a lenient judge and so not training things quite as well, when I'd driven 100s of miles to compete.
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windem bang
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Hi Josie, I do not think we are too far apart from being in agreement. The one part of your post that puzzled me was about good picking -up dogs needing to be silent and completely steady in case they disturbed the guns. If you are picking -up, no gun or other picker-up should be near enough to you for any whine from your dog or attempted run-in to be audible to them.
Picking-up is usually a pretty solitary affair, "mopping up" is what the guns dogs do. It is also done by people who, for whatever reasons, think it is better to have their dogs retrieve 10 birds per drive than 2 even if the two have greater dog training value.
Surely if no one else but yourself can hear an odd whine and an unsteady dog is kept on the lead until required, these dogs can still be valuable at picking up on a shoot, provided they can find the difficult birds that land well back in the woods?
Personally, I would not buy a pup from a parent I knew to be a whiner, nor would I breed from one for I think it can be an inherited trait. Like you I aim for 100 per cent knowing I am unlikely to achieve it, just in case I should ever want to trial again and also for my own satisfaction.
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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tashap
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whining is also a trained trait... we had a dog on the shoot last year that was a stinking whiner and by the end of the season she had taught her bad habit to several other dogs including mine which I've now put a stop to.
The same as the training class I went on at Vals last year a dog and their owners joined us for the days training and the blasted thing did nothing but whine... its not just annoying it disturbs everyone else as well.
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josie
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Oh, in that case maybe we're agreeing, in a round about way!
Maybe the shoots I've been on have been more informal than some, with pickers up standing back from, but near enough to the guns to be able to speak to them about which birds to pick and which to leave for peg dogs - definitely would hear whining.
I agree that if you can keep the dog on lead if unsteady and keep things under control, then no harm done - but then I don't think we could call that sort of dog a "good" working dog (yet).
Ho hum, interesting discussion though.
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windem bang
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I could not agree more, a relentlessly whining dog drives me up the wall !One dog whining can start other dogs off. If a "serial whiner" turns up in my training class I ask its owner to shut it up. If it still whines I try to give advice as to how to stop it. All to often unfortunately , nothing works,or not for long anyway. The owner is then asked to take the dog away and is assured he will be welcomed back when he has stopped the dog from whining.Only rarely does one of these dogs return. This may seem a bit hard but I tend to think it is better to lose one dog than to start some of the other dogs whining.
As far as whining is concerned, along with many other trainers,I think whining is hereditary to a greater or lesser degree, and it can be induced.
W.B. --- One toot and yer oot !!!
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Must admit I feel the same way about some people!
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DesO'Neile
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Although there is no actual deffinition of what constitutes "Persistent", persistent - anything -, back casting, false pointing, following your bracemate and a few others will eliminate you from a trial.
When I said about being sent home, I meant on that day. Obviously our actions on anybody's ground, on any day could lead to a request not to return.
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