| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Desmond |
Britany still heading for the hillsSome months ago a number of you were kind enough to offer me some advice on a young Britany which I was having trouble keeping at a reasonable distance when of the lead. The advice largley centred about teaching the dog "the drop" and the return on the whistle. I thought I was making good progress until this weekend when the we so and so, whilst out walking on the hills got a whiff of some Grouse and then the "red mist" took over. a km later I was able to entice him back. On a number of occasions he heard the whistle regestered it and then bashed on regardless yapping his head off. I guess he was wanting me to join in on the chase. His particular weaknesses seem to be Grouse and Deer of any kind.Can anyone offer advice on how I can keep him within 50 m? He is 15months old. Also on the recall he tends to sneek in a wee sweep on route. I suspect he should be comming straight back. I could also do with some advice on how one should react when he does return after one of his "missions". He holds back to test the waters on his eventual return likley the result of getting a robust yelling at on an earlier transgression. How do I let him know that I will not tollerate his behaviour but still get him to come in on the return. The books suggest you take him to the point of transgression but some time later I doubt that this will have much effect. Am I expecting too much or more likely am I just incompetent at the training. Frankly all I want to do is get this dog to the point where we can give him the excercise he needs whilst of us can get on with our love of outdoor activity. I have no current desire to train him to gun or rifle but seek the advice of forum members cos I expect you can help me fix this. |
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| Sparviter |
Hi Desmond.
Im afraid I really cant offer any advice, but I also have a Britt that sounds a little similar to yours, so I will be watching this thread. As for the ranging out, I asked a friend (very experienced dog man) about that, and he simply said "that's what Brittanies do". Personally, I am not too bothered about him getting well out as long as he points whatever he finds, and is still under control. Mine can also be a little slow on the recall when there is scent around (especially rabbit and hare.) The only thing that I could really think of was the e-collar which I have previously used for seperate problems, to great effect, but am trying to avoid dependance on. Hopefully somebody will be able to offer you some advice. Lee. |
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| josie |
Are you running him using a long line/check cord?
How many times, in a walk, do you practise your recall? What do you reward it with? What do you do if he ignores you? |
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| Desmond |
Lee and Josie,
Thanks for the really speedy replies. Lee, The ranging out would not really worry me but I fear the dog will get lost etc. When you say ranging out, don't suppose you mean out of sight? Trouble is a lot of recreational time is spent in wooded areas and I am pretty sure, but for the whistle, the little chap would get lost. Perhaps I should have bought a Springer if my wee fella is only performing to type. He is generally such a soft, complient and obedient we soul and although I have , in my darkest moments, wanted to fry his ass off I am still a tad reluctant to resort to the e-collar route. Better this than a Shepherd's bullet though I guess eh? Did the e-caler allow you to draw your Brittany in. Jossie, Following my last set of postings and the great advice I got in return I tried the long line technique down the local park on quite a few occasions. Seamed to work just fine except I kinda got worried with the likely effect of the wee fella going from full flight to dead stop in a yard. Harris is actually very good at most of the drills when on a field devoid of fowl or deer without much inducement with treats. To be honest Jossie I am scared of long lining him in wooded areas where he spends much of his R&R lest he scoots off and gets lost and entangled. Have to say I also take his harness off too when have him lose out with us whilst mountain biking. Maybes this is half the problem. Perhaps we keep him too fit so that when he does go off on one, he can get so far away so quickly. Your comments about treats is a very good one perhaps I have become complacent in the regard. Of late he gets nowt but a rub and praise for his efforts. Having read a recent thread from somebody recently next time maybees I should go out with a full Teso spit roast chicken. You asked I guess about reinforcement. When out and about I am concious that he might need warming up a bit so I kinda have him dropping and comming back to the whistle many times to begin with and then fairly frequently later on. I did not want to overdo it incase he gets whistle fatigue. You asked about my reaction to his not comming in. Mostly if I can get him in short order I take him by his collar to the point of transgression and go ballistic repeating the whistle commands which normally has him cowering. I have to say he knows when he is taking the piss. Tell me please what else should I do? I hate the post telling off guilts. I also confess that on one ocassion, after he was running along the A9 I lost the plot and took my hand to his rear end but that was before I knew better and was many a month ago. Maybes I am just being over expectant. I read others complaining of dogs that won't hunt, won't leave their side etc - do you think they might consider a problem swap. Thanks again for the comments and advice. Trust me its apreciated |
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| josie |
Just to be clear about this: When you catch him and he's ignored you, you intimidate him until he is cowering and have at some points been admittedly abusive to him - meanwhile, when he does the right thing and comes back, he gets nothing for having obeyed you against all the distractions of scent and game but a back rub? And you are wondering why you have a recall problem?  
Put it this way: You must be or have something which the dog wants to come back to. If you tell him off, shout at him or hit him, are you being or having something which he wants? Is he going to want to be around you or to stay as far away as possible?? When he does the right thing, he is getting nothing for his efforts much worth having. You need to reverse this so that you are the thing the dog wants to be around!
Well, there are several things here... If you are using a harness with your long line, you don't need to worry about him going from full flight to dead stop. Second, you say that he is very good on a field without game 'without much inducement with treats'. Well - the point of using treats is to super-charge the behaviour whilst there is no game. When you then ask him to do it around game, the chances of him doing it are far higher because he will remember how rewarding the behaviour was, in the past. If he doesn't have that memory of how rewarding it used to be, why should he choose to ignore the far greater reward of running after deer or scent? You need to be drilling the behaviour over and over again for treats (IMO) so that it becomes like a knee-jerk reaction when no game is around, in order for it to have a chance of working when there is game. In terms of not long lining him in woods - in case he runs off and gets tangled - the idea of the long line is that you never let the end of it get out of your reach. If you do, the dog may as well not be wearing a long line - there's no point if he's in the next field with a long line on!  So if you see that the dog is about to get out of reach, you recall him, give him a treat, tell him to go hunt again. If he ignores the recall, you reel him in. At first, I would still give him a treat if he comes even part of the way back to you whilst being reeled in. When he gets better at it, you can only reward immediate recalls without reeling in.
You shouldn't have the situation where he tears off with the long line on in this case - but if you're that worried that you won't be fast enough to grab it, then don't even let go of the end of it, keep recalling him to you for a tasty treat, over and over, for several days until you've had 7 clear days of immediate recall response, over and over, before you drop the end of it.
If you're rewarding him each time, with something he values, he won't get whistle fatigue! It is in the repetition and drilling, over and over, that it will become a knee-jerk reaction. If you do think that he is getting bored, change your treats to something different - more likely to be the reward and not the command he is bored of! If you do find that, during a session, his interest in the scents is growing and his interest in your treats is diminishing, even when you've changed them, then stop, move away to a less distracting location and practise more there. HTH - JMHO. |
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| johnhod |
I'm fairly new to Brittanys so this may well be disagreed with by those who know the breed better but I think you've given this youngster too much freedom too soon.
I appreciate that you want to share your recreational time with him, but can you honestly say you are enjoying your recreation while you are worrying about your dog. You seem, from your posting to have the basics in place, though they need to be practised in differing situations and enforced until he really understands what is expected of him, rather than just being able to do the drills. In your situation I'd like to think that I'd go back to basics and take it more slowly (not easy I know). Time spent getting it right now will be well rewarded later, when you can go out with your dog and not be constantly worrying where he is or what he is doing. |
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| windem bang |
I think you have read bits about running a dog down and put that into practice without making completely certain that the dog knows what it is being "ran down " for. This method does work , when I could still run I used it myself ............but not until the dog could do the excercise standing on its head. I used it {and still try to use it } on dogs that were being very deliberately disobedient.
I don't really think that dogs "take the piss" - though it often appears that they are ! Dogs just do what works for them - the trick is to make what works for them include you. Possibly more than any other breed that I have ever worked with this applies to the Brittany.
They are one of the worlds best hunting breeds - whether you like it or not ! I.M.O. you won't get control of your dog by trying to catch it then dragging it back to the crime scene - unless you are very quick on the uptake and fast on your feet ! Try to develop the ability to anticipate your dogs reactions to changes in landscape and circumstances. If you can do that and have a really good stop whistle working for you then you will gradually gain control provided you only blow that stop whistle when the dog is very likely to obey - that is in advance of the bog -off activity that you have anticipated. Brits work best for people who do their best to help them find game - a valuable hunting partner is what most Brits want . From that beginning it becomes more and more possible to have them cooperate with you for activities outside of hunting. I agree with whoever it was that said to get a 100 % stop whistle before venturing far with your dog and before it is allowed to range widely on game scented ground. Bill T. |
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| Desmond |
Thanks all for your advice.
Sound s like it is I that needs go back to the drawing board,not the we darling. I now know that it should be I that is draged back to the scene of first digression and hollered at.Rest assured my tail is now resident betwixt my legs. In my defence, for a newbe the written advice is very contradictory and if not written for labs doesn't really cover what you need to know for Brittany's. Case in point the long line. from what I have read in the advanced stages you are encouraged to shorten the long line and let it trail behind the dog. Some books also say you shouldn't rely overmuch on treats. Good news is, the books are now destined for the bonfire and for better or worse I will go on advice and instinct. Windem Bang, Bill, John and Josie, Thank you so much for your candid and at times harsh (but fair) advice. I am indeed guilty as charged on the heavy handedness though I still struggle to see how you get the mesage across after best part of an hour of fell running after a dog who has clearly registered that he is wanted elsewhere but decides he is still the boss. Praise for comming the short distance to a knachered owner is likely to reinforce the transgresion I think. I know - I hear the rebukes already - I should be anticipating the situation. Everyones comments have hit home from now on I shall be on the case more often but although I agree that my post transgression ttreatment was clearly too harsh, how does one keep on the case with constant intervention without "withering" the dog. I have admited to being new to this and I guess I felt that the clock was ticking to get the training done. Clearly I have been over expectant and have rushed things. Can any one offer some advice as to at what age the majority of the basics need be in place before one finds onself pushing "rocks up hill". Rest assured Harris and I will be back to the basics tommorrow and I shall set up an account at "Treats are us" very soon. Joking aside I really do get the message Josie. (Thanks much for the considered reply) I want to thank all who have responded thus far. I know I must be frustrating the hell out of those of you experienced souls but I am sure there are others, who like me get much from you comments and advice. i am clumbsy but want to get and do the best for this dog Des |
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| guy |
I think the short answer is you have not sorted out the 'stop'; because if you had there would be no problem.
Whilst this is easy to say it does not perhaps help you move forward. Without seeing how you and the dog relate to each other it is hard to offer particular advice. But a few ideas. I think the dog does not respect your position. It is doing its own thing. You may wish to look at your management of food, treats, toileting etc. If you cannot control our dog close to you will have little chance at a distance. I would suggest you work on 'obedience' close to. From your comments i think you have taught the dog to be wary of coming to hand. never tell the dog off for coming to hand EVER, if some correction is in order you need to go to the dog. IMHO a dog has expectations - if reality does not meet up with its expectation then the dog learns from this. Therefore if the dog expected to be welcomed back but got a reprimand it quickly learns to avoid returning. if it expected a reprimand but got a reward then it would be tempted to repeat the exercise. If reality matched expectation then no change in behaviour would be elicited. Running off and self hunting is very very rewarding. If you are going to use an aversive technique then the aversion has to be sufficient to make the dog think about running off. If you give this as a series of escalating punishments all you do is get the dog used to them - hardened. For aversion to work it is not and must not be about 'punishment' it needs to be about 'surprise' and to fit the circumstances. Don't try and swat a fly with a sledge hammer or stop a charging elephant with a water pistol. Punishment is anything the dog may not wish to do at the time - so forcing treats on a dog that has just eaten is a punishment. Reward is anything the dog may wish to do. Chasing - you could perhaps practice at the sea side - let the dog chase seagulls, and when it finds it cannot catch them make it chase them some more until it is completely fed up with seagulls. Not sure how this might translate to grouse - but i offer the concept. I would avoid 'linear' walks - where you let the dog off at the beginning and you walk and the dog does its own thing. It has the control, it knows where you are at all times and if it doesn't it has a nose that will find you. I would go for a wlak with the dog at heel, let it have a run / hunt whilst you stay still and then both of you move to a fresh spot and repeat the exercise. Repeating the command to the dog close up - make sure you do this very very quietly. At 50 metres the dog does not hear it at 100dB so there is no logic in lifting an ear flap and blasting away. Practice sitting the dog out and calling it to you, you will be surprised how quietly you can speak. This will allow you a raised voice to really make a point in the future. When in doubt practice the stop. Try and set up situations where the dog wins. |
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| Desmond |
Guy,
Anyone who responds post ten o'clock deserves a prompt thank you. I understand what you are getting at and along with the other comments I have recieved today they give me many an arrow for my quither of training techniques. Have to say he really is pretty good at the old close in obedience thing and without getting all macho about things I am pretty sure he knows who the boss is. For the next few weeks its going to be fun times for me and Harris. Good job we keep him lean cos all these treats are going to put on the inches. I like the idea of keeping him guessing whilst out and about but I wish I shared your faith in his nose. Last time I hid behind a tree to get the same effect, he lost me completely. Maybes I need hide up wind. Thanks much Des |
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| munstyman |
Hi Des,
On the contrary, its good to have a frank account of a situation rather than trying to fill in the blanks  A whippet of information I picked up along the way was `experience is earned best on `hindsight' not from books, as it stays with you longer'
I appreciate where your coming from when you say you were a little harsh after chasing the little blighter over hills and dale, we can often do things in the heat of the moment that we wouldn't normally do, and indeed, realise in the cool light of day is totally the opposite to what we should of done. The important thing is to recognise it, and then remember we have to retrain for both the cause of our reaction and for the reaction itself, as they both need to be redressed. The dog must always feel secure in your presence and never be given cause to think twice about coming into you. As Bill has said running down or returning to the point of trangression can work if you can do it with the neccesary precision, ( like Bill I doubt if I can still `physically' do it  , but thats not to say I let the dog know that ) Pre-empting the `bog off' is always the best option, but to do that you must be watching and paying attention, and if your not then the dog, any hunting dog, should not be running free, its that simple
I deal with the returning `disobedient' dog strictly `neutral', by this I mean giving neither positive or negative signals until I have the dog leashed. As with everything, this will depend on the last command I gave, and the body language of the dog on its return. i.e. in your scenario, where the dog shows hesitance on coming close, it would get a repeat recall and then praised, ( hard as it may be for you to do ) Once in and on the leash the dog is taken home, I don't train well when I'm steaming inside and I doubt others do too, so there will always be more to lose than to gain in trying to remedy the transgression on the same day  Assuming the `stop' was the last command which was broken, then this is what the dog will be worked on for the next week, and this will be done at least five days on the leash, no free running. This for my dogs is the time scale that I found gives the best `re-focusing' on both the commands and me as `leader' of the hunt, a lesser period and they `play' to it
Everything about drilling in the stop and recall in Josies posts is extremely relevant, although this bit made me smile:
A `back rub' positively spoiling the dog is that especially for a Brittany, as its a long way down
Peter |
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| guy |
training is a bit like going up a spiral staircase; well it is for me! keep going over the same bit of ground, albeit at a slightly higher level.
I was reading Bill Cotton the other day - he was an American retriever trainer/trialler in the '50s. He reckoned to have to revisit the basics of sit and stay about once a fortnight. Sometimes it is all a question of your, the trainers, mindset. There was an occasion last year when my dog for no apparent reason did his own thing - much to my surprise and chagrin. Munstyman will attest to this the solution was a 'reordering of the hierarchy' at home and a zero tolerance to slipped commands. the improvement was dramatic getting a sit within about three paces. i noticed last night when in a pheasant training pen sit was at least ten paces (i know the pace was 'hot') but the next few outings are going to be back to the stop whistle.
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| johnhod |
Des
Any of us who haven't been in your situation have either been lucky or haven't had a Brittany. I made the leap from Springers to Brittanys and found that I expected too much of my first Britt. I was comparing him with what the Springers were doing at his age. I also didn't get him until he was 9 months old whereas I'd always had springers from as soon as they were able to leave the bitch. I was fortunate in that I received lots of advice from Brittany Club members and am glad that I took most of it on board (too much of a smart a%&e to listen to everything). Don't beat yourself up too much about what''s happened so far, it sounds like you've now decided to try doing things differently and I wish you luck with that. One step at a time with a Brittany really is the only way, and be prepared to go back on a regular basis and cover again what you think you've got right as well as what you know you haven't quite mastered. |
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| Desmond |
Guy, Johnhod and Munstyman.
Thanks for the reasurance. I am suitably envigorated and have already started to implement some of the advice given by you and others over the last 24 hours. I doubt I shall make us both star performers but i will make us both a lot less dangerous when not conneted to a lead. Judging by the no of hits to this thread I suspect there are a few Brittany owners who are either feeling rather happy with them selves or share my angst. I have been given much to get on with and I will. I will also drop a further response to this thread in a couple of months just to let you know how we both get on. I still have one outstanding and rather nieve question unanswered. At what point does a Brittany get too old to learn new tricks fairly easily? Thanks again to all who have contributed to my further education. Des |
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| cressy |
Des in answer to that question .......... never!!!!
I rehomed Mugi when he was 10, he came with poor lead manners, too thin but a real desire to please. From being a city based pet he became a show dog and a working dog. He taught me heaps and through a very special little Brittany I got the current 'brat' and a new life. Mugi and I learnt (well I did the learning and he got to live the life he was born for) how to work on a shoot, primarily beating but at the end of this last season we had a couple of days in Norfolk where he had afternoons of walked up shooting. Despite being quite frail as his heart was failing you could see the joy. I can't offer much in the way of advice about the roaming, if anything I have to work to get my out - mind you when he is out there after a day or so of relaxing rules prior to competition he is fab. I had the best mentor for a brittany youngster when Chase arrived here .... Mugi himself, a dog with a fabulous recall and a natural unspoilt talent. I will (well I miss Mugi regardless) miss having such a super mentor when my next youngster joins me. |
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| lou |
hi Desmond
Fear not you can turn this around! I went through similar problems when I got my dog - the difference was she was almost 4 years old. Her own baggage combined with my novice training equaled a dog that had no boundaries. she could scramble over/under/through any field boundary and literally run rings around me. On one occasion I even whacked her in frustration. It did me no favours at all as unsurprisingly after that she was wary about coming back if she had bogged off. I sought heaps of advice, put it in practice but whilst some things helped I didnt really make progress till I found a lovely local dog trainer who didnt judge me, understood the breed and showed me in practice how to nail the stop, improve recall etc........ We havent looked back since - well, apart from an unfortunate road accident that left Connie with 3 legs! It took a while to build up our relationship after the whack incident and Connies recall is no way perfect as anyone who goes to the Yorkshire Group training will testify! but we have a very workable compromise. Connie is almost 8 now, she is no pushover but i enjoy our walks far more now. I cant take my eye off her though! good luck Louise |
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| josie |
Come back and tell us how it goes, Des. | ||||||||
| BritAnnie |
Lou, can you explain what tactics you and your trainer employed for this please? | ||||||||
| Desmond |
Josie and everyone else kind enough to post advice.
I will gladly post an update in a couple of months to let everyone interested hopefully be awestruck by our progress or be pleasantly smug in their own. I will be happy if we are both less dangerous to the public at large. I have aready started the charm offensive on his returns to remove any lingering fear in returning after a mission. To be honest I think he is long over the skelp he got for traipsing all over the A9 as it was a number of months ago. That said I am sure he is enjoying the vastly improved array of treats he now gets following one comment on me being stingy in that regard. I have had a wee go at most of the advice offered either in the past or over the last few days. The one aspect that I am going to have to work around is the suggestion that I need avoid linear walks. You see on certain frequent outings we have gotten kinda used to twice around the local Loch with me on a bike and him running free in and around me. Its easily 8miles and the wee so and so has energy enough for large hunting sweeps throughout. He responds to the whistle and knows where he is expected to trot along closer in and does it largely on his own accord. I think I am creating a pocket rocket, capable of covering much ground when he sets of on one, but how else does one give him the excercise he craves and needs. I am working on a compromise strategy though, throwing in may "crazy Ivans" whilst out bimbling along on the local field I have to say it has caused him to pay more attention to where I am . So once again good advice. I think I will leave the Seagull chasing for a while yet. Some months ago we had, or should I say he had, an impromtu session at this. You will have to believe me when I tell you that I don't think he cares if he can catch them or not and the Ayrshire Herring Gull never seem to get tired of teasing dogs daft enough to try and catch them either. He had easily an hour of to and fro-ing, wave crashing and yelping his merry wee head off on his last such outing. With all the pointless whistle blowing I did I now know what a premier league ref feels like after a particulary fractious local Derby. Happy Days I really did think he was going to drown himself. Local Dog owners think I'm pretty slick though at the old dog whisperer stuff as they see wee Harris dropping and returning to the whistle etc as we go through our drills with added vigour- If only they knew the true story eh! Out for now and thanks again all Des |
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| BritAnnie |
I was told by an old breeder when we got our first dog that although a certain amount of exercise is required, which may vary between the breeds, basically dogs are like athletes and become adrenalin junkies - the more they get the more they want/need. So just be careful not to get into the rut of being forced to exercise your Brit for four hours every day - they just don't need that. Mine are perfectly happy on an hour or so free running including training sessions, and the rest of the time in the garden( it is big, mind you - an acre)
BritAnnie |
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| lou |
hi Annie Nothing mysterious - i think it was just the difference of reading advice in books/on forums and actually seeing it in practice. With an iffy recall I was shown how to nail the stop. starting next to me and gradually increasing the distance and distraction. With recall i popped a long line on her with the idea that she practiced good behaviour more often than bad. We were really making headway until she got thumped and that somewhat put a spanner in the works! Louise |
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| swainsons |
Hello All,
Interesting. Bloody Brittanies!! As you may know I am from South Africa and we are slap bang in the middle of our hunting season and I run 2 of these BLOODY BRITTANIES, I am by far no trainer but have tried with various methods to shape my dogs to what I want, and for all intent and purposes I almost have that, including an 8 year old male that just runs and runs and runs, he is not deaf, he knows the recall whistle because in the yard he does not put a foot wrong. The problem clearly lies with us as trainers. My problem is 2 fold: 1. In the field when we shooting I take little notice of the dogs. I focus on the hunting, and once again, generally I get the points and I get the retrieves. And I am generally satisfied with that. 2. I hunt 2 dogs together. Yes, guilty, sorry and after this last weekend I WILL NOT DO THAT AGAIN. Now one of them must wimper and scratch the kennel to shreds, I will turn my back on them. I will only hunt 1 at a time, in 1 hr relays and I know half my problems will be gone. Now, I just have to figure out how to get my 8 year old to do WHAT I WANT, and not what he wants, but the off season is almost on us and I will try my best, and keep posting to share my experience. Good Luck, Leon Besaans |
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| BritAnnie |
As I have said before - they're dogs first and foremost and Brittanys second. The only difference is they are hunt mad. So the only problem we all have is to ensure they don't become 'self-employed'. We need them to focus on us and go where we want them to hunt not where they want to go themselves. I went to a demonstration of sheep dog handling and training yesterday (dog whisperers - http://www.henderson-hill-bordercollies.co.uk/) and it was an eye opener. I have learnt some techniques to try on Allez. One of these is a round enclosed ring with a post in the centre. Handler stands in middle and walks towards dog - dog retreats as you are now in his space then you immediately release him by backing off and calling him towards you. Keep pushing round the ring and releasing till the dog responds instantly. I'm getting some panels from my cousin next week so will set this up and try it out. Have already tried it in garden and although too large an area for control it initially seemed to be working by getting him focussing on me more. | ||||||||
| swainsons |
So, went out for a quick little afternoon duck shoot with both my BLOODY BRITTANIES yesterday afternoon, and I ran/ worked them seperately, and guess what, it worked beautifully.
My older boy did not run over the horizon and my baby retrieved those ducks in the most adverse conditions I have worked her in yet. MAGNIFICENT. All the best. Leon |
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| BritAnnie |
Well done, Leon, you've cracked it. I know they run a few together in France so it is possible but I can only guess they have either a lot of control at a very early age or aren't bothered by the lack of it. | ||||||||