| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| windem bang |
Brittany GiganticusJust finished reading about Brits on an American site. One brit owner claims his/her dog is purpose bred to run well among sagebrush etc. This has been done by breeding a brittany high on the legs. The owner says he cannot be entered in shows other than working dog shows as he is 43 inches high at the withers!!!!I like 'em big but this thing must have been crossed with a giraffe  I checked to see if a mistake had been made and he/she had meant to say centimetres but I think that would only make the dog about 17-18 inches. That's not a tall brit, wish a photo had been posted, I just have to see this dog  
Bill T. P.S. Jan, Merlins'not been near any giraffes has he
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| BritAnnie |
It's typical of American Brittanys though - they are bred high and long to hunt far and wide with followers on horseback. Different horses for different courses, as they say. Different breed altogether from our French ones. | ||
| cressy |
On the basis that Brice 'only' stands at just over 32" to the withers I am now seriously scared at something bigger than him with any form of Brittany attitude!!!
Brice in comparison with an ESS and a WSS neither of which are on the short side. 
and in all his glory!! |
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| windem bang |
I think the person owning this brittany must have meant to type 23 inches, I can't think of any other explanation. 23 inches is a nice sized Brittany I want's me one of them !!!!
Bill T. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well Merlin didn't do anything while he was here..I cannot vouch for what he has been up to while on holiday but I don't think it would have been a giraffe [at least not yet  ]
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| johnhod |
He's been getting some free running with Moss and Briar on a field that is overgrown, but I don't think it's that bad that a giraffe could hide itself in there. | ||
| BritAnnie |
That's what he needs I think. My Fred was like that - a permanent coiled spring. I couldn't get him to walk on the lead either. My friend Steve has him now and he's working 200 yard strips with Raptors. The giraffes up her couldn't keep up with him
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| DesO'Neile |
The only person with an in depth knowledge of Brittanys that I ever talked to about them was a Mr Stanley Smith. I believe he was responsible for importing some dogs/ a dog from America to the U.K. because he believed that " The purest, unadulterated, French blood was to be found there" I know this was some time ago and things may have moved on a lot but I am surprised at some statements on this thread for this reason | ||
| guy |
Unadulterated by what ? Des did he give any suggestions? There were some pictures on the French forum recently of a mid fifties show and the dogs looked quite long in the leg. However as the leg length is linked to the back length directly; I personally cannot see how one gets a long legged French style Brittany - an explanation would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| BritAnnie |
Stan would NEVER have said that there were good French dogs in America! He was a great friend of my late husband, Sandy, and insisted ALWAYS that only French bred dogs should be imported into the UK. Stan imported 4 dogs from France only, he never imported from the USA to my knowledge, and over time did import from Ireland after a few years. We were allowed to have a dog from the 1984 litter by Puk des Pigenettes out of Rolline de St Tugen. The other two he imported from France were Ted des Sous les Viviers and Samantha de Goas Villinic. We were also priveleged to have one of the first bitches to have all four of Stan's original lines, Bouquet Garni at Aberdon. She was an excellent hunter, very obedient, and did extremely well in the show ring before we had Championship Status. Stan also insisted that all his pups had to be worked in some way. It is a pity that modern day breeders are not so insistent. Stan's early teachings have proved correct - the American lines have gone a different route and are now a totally different breed. Stan's enthusiam is the reason I am as passionate as he was.
You must be mistaken Des. You should read his book - Bird dogs of the World. Annie |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Taken up horse riding again  
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| windem bang |
By chance my first Brittany was of the American type, she looked a bit like a small setter. By brit standards she was tall, bigger then most of the French type. Her dam was one of two litter sisters imported from America by a man connected to the oil industry.
She was big enough to win two trials on grouse competing against G.S.P.'s etc. My personal preference is for big Brittanies, I think they can do the job more easily. The only other American bred dog I saw was a male of only 10 months or so. It was entered for a trial in Scotland as a last minute entry because a couple of contestants had failed to turn up. He gave quite a fair account of himself before being chucked out. I was spectating at that trial and wanted to keep this dog in mind for a possible future mating to my bitch. He too was bigger than most French dogs. The dog and owner left the trial and I never saw them again. Keith Erlandson once discussed with me the possibility that French Brits were small due to poor feeding in the first half of the last century. The American Brits got far better feeding and responded by growing larger over the generations. This seems possible to me since during the 2nd world war most of the Americans that arrived on these shores were bigger than the average British man due to better quality and maybe quantity of food. If it can work on people it can certainly work on dogs. I don't think I'd want a brit 43 inches at the withers though
Bill T. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
How come modern Brittanys here and in France are not big like the American Brittanys...you cannot say they are not fed proper these days, and have been for quite a few years.....  ..
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| johnhod |
Thanks for reminding me Jan. I must feed Merlin before Saturday | ||
| windem bang |
I think they are being deliberately bred to be small maybe? A dog that exceeds the breed standard height by any significant degree would probably not be bred from. Show enthusiasts would be worried the pups produced would be too big for the ring. Any truth in that ???
Bill T. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Perhaps they are coming out the size they are meant to be....perhaps the Americans are breeding large to large because that is the type/size of dog they prefer
Give him a leg of beef John, that will do him till then......just as long as it's not more than £20
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| DesO'Neile |
I am not mistaken. | ||
| guy |
Bill don't forget the French hunt first and show second. They are passionate about it. - well the ones I have met are. |
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| windem bang |
I find it a little odd that the Brittany,originally a cross between a French spaniel of some sort and mainly British bred setters and pointers should be small in size. The genes to be larger are obviously there in them. I'm aware that working bred setters and pointers are often smaller than those used in the showring but even so the Brits would I think, be bigger if a small size was not being bred for. I think you are correct Jan the Americans could see no good reason to breed for a small size so some of the Brits began to grow nearer to their upper size potential.
Speaking from a work point of view I.M.O. a "normal" size Brit that is really good at hunt, point, retrieving is a very useful dog to have but a dog of equal ability but larger can more easily do the same job. When hunting heather for example the slightly larger dog can keep going longer and maybe faster for it is not having to "bust" the heather. The smaller dog may be just as willing, just as able but it is having to work harder to do the job. It cannot help but tire more quickly. The retrieve is covered by the same reasoning, the slightly larger dog can manage the birds more easily. This may not matter too much if a dog is being worked as an H.P.R. where the number of retrieves is likely to be few but it does matter if the dog is being used for picking - up as mine were, the bigger dog is faster on the return carrying a bird and can manage any obstacles more easily. If I am not mistaken the two Brits doing so well in Open trials this year are pure French bred but they are both BIGGER dogs than the rest of the Brits in trials. My last Brit, Belle is one of the small type. She hunted well but I think she'd have struggled a bit in heather. She really did struggle when trying to retrieve big cock pheasants, her heart and mind was all work but her size worked against her. I.M.O. Brittanies are being bred small just for smalls sake. Bill T. |
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| guy |
Whilst i am not going to disagree with you that a bigger dog may do the job more easily there are surely a number of other things to bear in mind.
The dogs were developed by countryman hunters who by definition would not have lived in large properties nor had lots of spare food or money for a dog. The dog had to earn its keep. One of the paramount traits that have been bred for is temperament as teh dog was part of a family for large parts of the year. A smaller dog would fit a smaller house more easily. With an HPR hunting ability is located behind the nose not in the legs. An ability to pick game surely is in muscle tone of the neck - I could provide you with a link to a britt carrying a fox, I am not sure you are correct the trialling dogs are at the upper limit of size. Are not both the current open winners bitches?. Topaz 9dog) is 50 cm to the shoulder (as measured a continental breed master) so he is not oversize and can handle last years birds. Just because they were crossed with a larger dog does not mean they will turn out large - that particular gene may not have come across, |
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| BritAnnie |
This is getting ridiculous. The FRENCH Brittany is the size as in the standard set down by that country. This country - the UK, follows that standard and our dogs are therefore of a like size. They were bred that size for specific terrain in France. Other breeds were bred for differnt purposes and terrains in other countries. They have always been correctly fed on both sides of the Channel, so that is NOT the reason for the enlargement of the breed in America. They wanted/needed longer legged and backed animals for their purposes and chose to change the Epagneul Breton to serve their own needs, rather than use established larger breeds. My late husband's dear friend, Stan Smith, most certainly did not favour ANY American dogs, he was profoundly opposed to the way they were going with their breeding programme, as am I and the majority of French and UK breeders.
Annie |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Have you got the valium handy Annie....Bill's doing a jolly good job of winding you up again
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| windem bang |
SSSSSSH, Jan I'm just beginning to enjoy myself I've even got Guy going !!! I've worked the small type and the large type and I know which I prefer as an all round gundog. I can't see anything wrong in breeding for what you need that's what the French did and that's what the Americans did with the same breed.
My range of activities with the first larger Brittany covered the whole H.P.R. spectrum, a lot of grouse moor work a lot of general or rough shooting a lot of picking - up and a little work from time to time with various falcons and hawks. She could and did do the lot, usually with energy to spare. The French dogs can do this too but I stand by my claim that the larger dogs do it more easily. The two French type dogs doing well at the moment are I think both bitches and they are I think litter mates. I've seen the bitch Rory Majors works and she is about the same size as my original half American Brit bitch. I like dogs that are good all rounders and I.M.O. a big Brit makes for a better all rounder than a small one. If you doubt this take a small one onto a grouse moor and run it alongside trial winning pointers, setters, G.S.P.'s etc. as I have done. The bigger dog does it more easily everything else being equal though I'm not claiming even the best of Brits can keep up with a pointer or setter - not the ones I was privileged to run my bitch with anyway! Bill T. |
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| Bareve |
From what little I know and remember I thought virtually all the original imports were French and those I remember Stan with were most certainly French imports as I could never say their names 
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| windem bang |
Hi Guy, I forgot parts of your earlier post  Yes a nose is needed but legs are useful too. Hence the description of the pointer, " A greyhound with a nose in front."
The Brittanies genetic inheritance came from more than one setter or pointer, can't see that the size would be small every time. I've seen a Brittany x Irish Setter, the size was midway between the two. It would be interesting to have D.N.A. tests done on both American and French Brittanies. I strongly suspect our American cousins have chucked in a dose of setter. Controversially though I am told the French have done the same quite recently! A Brittany fanatic went over to France for a look around some very well known kennels and saw dogs that were not pure Brittanies kept out of sight! Enquiries seemed to indicate a little of something else was judiciously added every now and again to keep 'em going hard! Yes a few D.N.A. tests would be interesting! Personally I would have no objection IF the French are doing this on the quiet. I read somewhere in an article on dog breeding that about 4 - 5 generations of puppies brings them back to being a "pure" breed again. I have no idea how factual this is but I have no reason to doubt my informant. It would neither surprise me nor distress me. Bill T. |
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| johnhod |
Looking at the opposite end of the spectrum, anyone like to comment on the number of undersized Brittanys around at the moment? | ||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Well I take your point about dogs on the moors Bill but if I tried to work a large dog on our shoot it would have no chance....too much low undergrowth and brambles. Ghill is 48cm [whatever that is in english] and she is just right for working in these conditions. THere is a guy comes with us who has a lovely 2 year old weimar and this dog has problems getting in whereas Ghill just charges through. Don't you think it's horses for courses [or dogs ]
Breeds change over the years as we all know...look, for instance, at the Greyhound, the show dogs are up to 30 inches at the shoulder but the racing dogs are a fair bit smaller. The whippet has gone down from a dog of around 25 to 30 inches into a dog that is supposed to be 19 inches. Also look at all the different sizes of spaniel....from the Cavalier to the Clumber. Talking of horses, theres a lot of difference between a Shetland Pony and Shire Horse but, they all came from the same stock in the beginning. |
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| BritAnnie |
Bill's not winding me up at all. I am stating facts! The Americans do all sorts of strange things with breeds - just the two Cockers prove it. We have a standard and it should be adhered to especially since it comes from the country of origin. As to smaller dogs, John, yes, there is at least one UK breeder producing smaller stock but as yet without having measured any of them they do not appear to be undersized. However, I wouldn't place highly some of the dogs as they are far too feminine, regardless of their conformation.
Poor dear Stan would be spinning in his grave at the implication he might have even considered any of the American breeding. There was an Irish Breeder, Kate Bride, who sent dogs to the States and took pups back from there, but they were never compromised by breeding taller and longer as others did. She owned the Pairc na Glos affix. There are some breeders in USA who keep both breeds but insist they do not interbreed them - if not why keep both? Yeah, right (as they might say) And if you need a big dog for certain terrain use a big dog, do not corrupt our Epagneul Breton
BA |
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| windem bang |
The Americans may do strange things with breeds but no stranger than we have done. The springer and the cocker were once for all intents and purposes the same breed. A man could run a dog in a trial as a cocker then when it got a bit bigger, run it in a springer trial! Pups from a spaniel litter were trialled as cockers or as springers just as the fancy took their owners and according to how big they'd grown.
The Germans or the French are no better they bred what suited their purposes at the time. I don't think show standards have improved the work of working breeds in some cases they have ruined the dogs. Yes it is horses for courses and for my course I happen to prefer large to small having worked both in cover and out on open moorland with Brittanies. You are worried that American type Brits would ruin "your" breed. I wouldn't mind at all if the Americans decided to change the name of their Brittanies to something else, a good working dog by any name is still a good dog. Bill T. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Just how big is Buck Bill
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| BritAnnie |
The breed is known as "The American Brittany" in every country. Our breed is known as the Brittany in the UK (we are hoping to change that with the KC's help), the Brittany Spaniel in Ireland, and Breton, or Epagneul Breton everywhere else. | ||
| windem bang |
Jan, the honest answer is I don't know - it has never occurred to me to measure him! As male G.S.P.'s go he's not huge. His uncle, Dirk, that I owned was taller at the shoulder and appeared longer in body. Buck is not as good a running dog as he was but Dirk was exceptional in that regard. Buck is of a more compact type. If I can ever get him to stand still long enough I'll try to measure him!
Jan, you made me wonder so I've just tried measuring him. Couldn't find a rigid steel tape so I used an old cloth one with inches only. It says ( after an all in wrestling match!) that he's 25 inches at the shoulder. Could be a little less. I've no idea what height male G.S.P.'s are supposed to be but I've certainly seen some bigger than Buck. Bill T. |
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| BritAnnie |
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/94
Size Dogs: minimum height 58 cms (23 ins) at withers, maximum height 64 cms (25 ins) at withers. Bitches: minimum height 53 cms (21 ins) at withers, maximum height 59 cms (23 ins) at withers. Stand him against a light surface, put a straight object on his withers (ruler or thin stick)to touch that light area, mark it with a pencil and measure from floor to the mark. More accurate than trying to get he dog to stand still for long. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
God...you are soooooo bossy
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| windem bang |
Thanks it seems he is within the size limits.
Bill T. |
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| Helen S |
So that must mean you can show him Bill!
Helen D |
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| windem bang |
Show him what?
Bill T. |
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| Helen S |
I can't compete with the humour, I'm only lubricated with coffee at this hour in the Southern Hemisphere!
Helen S |
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| guy |
Just what does a dog need to do to become a new breed?
Longer legged, longer necked, different tail carriage, no black. breeds true to type - is that enough? |
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| windem bang |
Can't say I noticed any difference in the tail carriage Guy but the rest of your observations are true enough so maybe the tail carriage is different if it's American style Brittanies were talking about? ..... Must be them since you mention no black allowed. Strange rule that one, for me a good dog can be any colour !!!
Our cousins could continue to call them Brittanies since you are trying to get the name changed to something unpronounceable just to be posh !
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| BritAnnie |
Not taking the bait, this time, WB!!!
As regards making something a new breed, the FCI and the KC have both said in the past that the Proposition has to come from the country of origin. I don't think the SCC has the guts to be honest. BA
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| guy |
What then is the French view on the American version.
I have only seen one American Brittany in France - but that is not a particularly robust survey 
British Brit - 'Britt' and the AB |
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| BritAnnie |
The French hate the American Brittany with a vengeance. Wouldn't you, if another country took our British Beer for instance and corrupted it Same with our good old Malt, look what Japan has done!
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| windem bang |
The American Brit in Guys photo looks strongly built and able to run well. Since I don't show them that would do fine for me, I don't much care what the French think. A good dog is a good dog whatever its country of origin.
Bill T. |
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| BritAnnie |
Yes, but you need the breeding AND the standard behind a dog to know in advance of buying a puppy whether it will be a good dog or not.
If you didn't have the breeding you could have a mongrel, if you didn't have the standard you could also have a mongrel - think about it |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
And if you don't have a French Brittany you have probaly got a mongrel
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| johnhod |
I think this is where you and Bill will continue to disagree. For a dog to be good in the field it doesn't necessarily have to conform to a breed standard (just look at what people striving to meet the breed standard have done to springers and labs), it simply needs to be able to do the job you want it to and not to have to look pretty while doing it. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
Not to mention Greyhounds, terriers etc....... | ||
| windem bang |
The standards have gone to the dogs--- Haw -Haw -Haw
Bill T. |
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| windem bang |
More seriously it may be difficult to say whether the chicken or the egg came first but that isn't the case with dogs. The dog came BEFORE the standard and for me it still does. If the standard had come first then the dog would have been designed by a committee not by the work it did.
Bill T. |
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