Castration

Claire · Castration

Hope this is the right place to post this Embarassed

I am looking for the facts surrounding castration. For a variety of reasons we have not had Harris castrated. He turned 7yrs in Feb. He is not going to be used at stud and I have always turned down stud enquiries as he was a rather bolshy male when a youngster and the more time he spent on our shoot, mixing with other male dogs and learning they weren't all going to attack him (he was attacked 3 times before he turned 18mths) then the more his confidence grew. I didn't want to risk changing his attitude towards other males hence us turning down stud enquiries.

Recently I had a scare with a rescue dog. Also a 7 year old entire male but was highly sexed from living the life of a street dog and getting out mating gawd knows what. I thought he was going to have to be PTS because the vet suspected prostate cancer but luckily it was caught just in time and so off came his crown jewels and now he has the chance of the life he should have always had.

So now I am thinking heck, maybe I should be getting Harris castrated after all because I could be putting him at risk of prostate cancer. For those who don't know, prostate cancer in dogs is much more aggressive than in humans and most dogs will be pts within 30 days of diagnosis, others may live for up to a year if aggressive treatment is sought. Harris is petrified of the vets, REALLY scared and no matter what I've tried I've never been able to get him over it. So that was another reason for not getting him castrated and hip scored for that matter, because I try to avoid putting him through the stress of the vets unless necessary. Particularly because stress can bring on bloat and whilst he has so far never bloated, we have had a couple of scares.

So...... I don't want to be convinced that castration is the right or wrong thing to do. What I do want, is the true facts on how, if at all, castration affects a dog. I want the positives and the negatives. I have a spayed bitch, she was done early due to medical reasons and apart from the odd little urine leak every now and then I've had no problems.

Would appreciate your thoughts. Especially if you think there is a chance castration might somehow affect his working ability. I know some say it does and others say it doesn't. Confused

DesO'Neile

I would nearly rather have a dog/bitch put down than have it neutered for other than medical reasons.
The suggested preventative benefits of castration/spaying are well documented but so are the contraindications and the last authoritative study that I read suggested that the latter outweighed the former. To me temperament is everything and a dog that it would be suggested could benefit from castration in this respect is of virtually no value and I would put it to sleep rather than keep it or pass my problem to somebody else.

josie

I sympathise Claire.

One in four unspayed bitches will develop pyo by the age of 10 yrs. Sad

I wish I didn't have to spay Slate, but I am about to make the dreaded phone call tomorrow and book her in for next week... Sad

kiwi

i wouldn't bother myself.
i share a veiw of spaying and castration similar to des, i don't see the point in following the vets world wide fashion of chopping bits off or cutting open a bitch, for some health issues it may need to be done but i don't agree with the facts and figures that vets ram down your throat.
if harris is happy and easy going around other dogs why put him through the stress and risk of the operation,unless there is a family history of cancer,by that i mean in his line not dogs as a whole Wink

castrating or spaying is not a 100% fix for aggression, that should have been done by the breeder not the knife.

Claire

karenb

Hi
we had a mature working GSP castrated and I would not hesitate to do this again if I did not wish to breed or show. He was castrated to prevent kennel rivalries when visiting bitches came to my other younger male. He had never mated a bitch and I just wanted to minimise any risks of the two boys not getting along especially as they were kenneled together.

He recovered from the op very quickly.. infact after a couple of days was very fed up about not being allowed off the lead. His attitude and physical conditon did not alter at all.. he was mature when castrated so all his secondary sexual characteristics were well developed. He did not gain weight but I did watch his weight closely to start with just in case, that said I never had to reduce his food at all. Working ability stayed exactly the same - his drive and stamina was unaltered.

From a health perspective older males can get testicular cancers and prostate problems.. castration greatly reduces these health risks and therefore is a reasonable preventative IMO. I spayed my veteran SH CH girl in February - she has had 2 litters and I do not wish to run the risk of loosing her to Pyo or have to risk a more complex op to spay her in the middle of an acute pyo. She is just the same girlie she every was, has never looked better and one or two other people agree as she went Best in Show at our breed club show last week.

Karen

BritAnnie

I think we are all getting bogged down here, and emotionally involved too. Claire only wanted to know what the outcome might be if she had HArris neutered.
Personally I don't like having dogs castrated, but I couldn't explain why - I've never done it so I don't know what the consequences might be. But by the same token I've had 5 dogs and none of them ever developed testicular or any other cancer. Brett lived to 16, Clyde to 13, Flash now 9, Fred 5 and Allez 2, are still fit and well. Clyde was agreesive as a result of attacks at 7 months, and I was advised by our vet that castration or hormone drugs MIGHT solve it, but we decided against it and just 'managed' the problem.
I must admit I have often spayed bitchse at around 7, mainly to avoid the risk of unwanted pregnancies, but also to avoid the risk of mammary gland tumours.
JMHO
Annie

Liz

Toby was castrated at about 10 because of prostate problems. I didn't realise that was what was wrong as he was having problems crapping, and I thought dogs would be the same as men and would have problems peeing! I wouldn't have had him done otherwise. He made a very quick recovery and it didn't change him at all.

I wouldn't want to have any of my males done unless there was a good medical reason.

Bareve

I would only have a dog castrated or a bitch spayed if there was a veterinary reason to have it done. We had a dog castrated a long time ago due to prostrate problems but he is the only male we've had to have castrated in the years that we have owned males.

HTH

josie

Can we have more feedback from bitch owners here...? (Not wanting to hijack Claire's thread, but it seems to be the equivalent thing from the other gender!).

Pyo seems to be more prevalent in unspayed bitches than cancer is in un-neutered dogs. At what age would people have their bitches spayed?

If they wouldn't, would they just wait until/if their bitch got pyo and then spay? This is a far greater op, as if the infected uterus ruptures into the abdominal cavity during surgery it can lead to infection and death. A pyo spay is a much bigger deal than a routine spay, cannot be timed to happen midway between seasons etc etc. On the shoot which Slate was picking up on last season, another picker up with an 8yo GSP bitch had just had to have an emergency spay for her with pyo, and she was at the vet's about a week and nearly didn't make it. He said that he would have any future bitches spayed as soon as he didn't want to breed from them, after that experience. Pyo is much more likely in bitches which haven't had litters, too, and she hasn't.

On the other hand, I have to say (perhaps as a, er, fully functioning woman - am I humanising?!), I am still finding it hard to justify booking Slate in for what is a preventative op, and having what are probably perfectly healthy (at the moment) bits removed from her. So I do see the other point of view too.

What do others do and why? And when people are saying "not unless medical reasons", what exactly do they mean - they would wait until there was a problem?

guy

i have had three ESS bitches all entire- they all developed cancerous growths around their bladders at about 10 years and were pts when life quality deteriorated. Only two were related.

josie

Are cancerous growths around their bladders connected to anything to do with their uteruses, Guy?

windem bang

I once worked with a lot of spayed bitches and castrated males. The Guide Dogs organisation for obvious reasons has every bitch and every dog "done." Never, that I can remember,did it make any difference to the dogs working ability - that is any difference good or bad.

My only objection to having bitches spayed or dogs castrated is that all too often they go fat. I know many vets say this isn't true but in my experience it is true. Diet and exercise help a lot of course but if diet is used too much to keep the weight down then the dog may have little energy for work. In my limited experience of this, neutered dogs are more likely to scavenge - probably because they are dieted.

Bill T.

guy

Helen S

I had Liesel spayed because phantom pregnancies were affecting her temperament for working and for living with her. She flew through the op and was a job to contain on the lead for the required time before her stitches came out. She has not looked back since. It didn't make her perfect but it did improve things no end.

I don't think I would routinely spay/castrate without a good reason, but ease of management especially when you have several dogs, is a good reason in my book.

I may add that none of the spayed bitches which my family has owned has had a weight problem unless it had unsolicited access to large quantities of food by stealth, but then they always had loads of free running on the farm.

Helen S

Marjolein

Haven't had time to read all the posts, so probably this was already said, but the incidence of prostate cancer in dogs is very low. I wouldn't castrate for this reason. HTH.

Bareve

We don't do routine spaying. We have had two emergency pyo's over the years - one successful - one not. The one that wasn't was my mum's pet Mini Schnauzer and she was, at the time, being treated for an urinary problem and I think the vet got confused/complacent/whatever and instead of looking for maybe another problem kept treating her for the urinary problem. TBH she was still eating but not herself and seemed to be peeing a lot. We did have her spayed but the toxins were already too advanced and we lost her due to kidney failure a few days later.

Our other emergency spay was so obvious and classical signs. 10.5 yr old wirehair bitch (never had a litter) fine one night when we went to bed but in the morning couldn't walk. She had a temperature, she was panting, looked very uncomfortable and didn't want to get out of the chair that she was in when we got up. She was half way between her season and when she "would" have whelped and she "felt" hard and full as if she was in whelp but she was clean and dry behind. Took her straight in and our vet "thought" it was a pyo by her symptoms so they admitted her put her on a drip whilst they did bloods to check there wasn't anything else going on and they concluded it was a pyo and she was operated on before lunch-time. Despite her age we collected her by mid afternoon and was congratulated by our vet for our quick response as it was a closed pyo and it had been caught in time. She recovered very well but as Bill said she had gained weight and we haven't changed her routine in any way and as she has never been a great eater sometimes she does not even eat 200 gms in a day.

From speaking to other people I believe that with pyo's it's pretty obvious there is something going on even if you cannot put your finger on it. I also believe that the bloods that the vet's can take and analyse these days tell them much more than they did with regards to diagnosis.

The medical reasons for us is whatever is deemed to be life threatening not just for convenience reasons.

HTH

gummybear

newbie

My 2 cross breeds have both been done the bitch as she was a rescue from the SSPCA and it is part of their policy to do this and my dog as at the time we lived in a very large housing estate where there was lots of dogs running around including bitches in season obviously owners not bothered ! so for ease of living i suppose we got him done now he is 14 years old and only in the last 5 years has he put any weight on my cross bitch hasnt put any weight on at all and she is now 8 years old, but my sister got her Dobermann bitch done last year and she has piled the weight on so maybe different breeds are affected in different ways ? my other sister has a pointer also been done but no weight gain so who knows.
Just to add it hasnt changed their characters in any way and they are still as mad as ever !
About 2 years after the dog was done we got a Jack Russell bitch who came into season and stupidly i thought it would be ok to leave him and her whilst i went out to the shops OH how wrong was i ! Embarassed

i came back to find them tied i was straight on the fone to the vets telling him he hadnt castrated my dog properly so i took him down to the vets he had a feel about and assured me he had done the job and that my dog obviously just had a good memory ! needless to say that was the one and only time he ever done that and doesnt bat an eyelid at the tarty girls any more.

josie

Reading through all this, I'm even more sure it's the right thing to do for us. (It seems less clear-cut for male dogs so good luck Claire with the decision.)

We have a consult with Slate on Monday to discuss if we should have it done now or wait till midway through the next cycle. (Midway in cycles she is always having a mild false preg though, and it's not supposed to be during that. Got to say I am semi hoping he's going to tell us to wait so I can put all this off for longer Laughing

)

Helen

Firsty in answer to Claire's question. As you know, I had Harvey done at the end of last year as he had an enlarged testicle. I did it on the advice of my vet and was more than happy for him to have it done. I haven't seen a change in him, apart from his coat - which has gone softer. His temp, character etc remain the same.

Bitches, I like to get spayed at around 6 or 7 years old, just because. I did have a pyo scare last year with my springer, Pippa. She went downhill very quickly and was having a phantom. I suspected pyo and the vet did too but it turned out to be an infection in her gut. The vet told me that it was made worse due to her phantom as their immune system isn't as good??

The problem with consulting with vets (not all vets I hasten to add), is that they all push for getting it done.

Helen

DesO'Neile

I find it interesting that the majority of people say that they see no difference in their dog/bitch subsequent to the neutering. It would make one wonder about the chances of a dog with a dodgy temperament being affected to the good by this sort of operation. Wouldn't it?

josie

I'm not a vet but I think it depends on the type of aggression concerned as to whether castration would reduce it.

Slate is now booked in for a spay on Thursday. Sad

God I feel so responsible and guilty about this!

newbie

Think i might be able to sort of answer your question Des ,my sister who has the Dobermann bitch who has a very dodgy/aggressive temperament towards strangers still has this temperament after being spayed it hasnt changed her that way she has to wear a muzzle when out walking and she cant get off lead thankfully we have a very large back garden where she can safely be let off lead,the only change as i mentioned before is the weight gain.

josie

This is an interesting article focussed at the perspective of "canine athletes" or working dogs (in various disciplines):

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

Despite listing a lot of negatives, it still recommends spaying bitches once mature.

Claire

I have a spayed bitch. She was always going to be spayed but medical reasons meant she had to be spayed sooner than I would have liked. Apart from the odd little urine leak and even that isn't even as often as once per month, she has suffered no ill effects. That includes weight gain. I manage her weight and the other dogs for that matter, by food and exercise and I've never had a problem with any of my dogs having a lack of energy if I have reduced food because of them looking slightly heavier than I would like. So I do firmly believe that whilst a neutured dog can increase in weight due to the lack of hormones, (hormones burn off more calories) it can easily be managed by the owner Smile

I'm still undecided on Harris. As it happens the bugger has gone lame Rolling Eyes

He jumped over a ditch into a field and yelped, don't know if he landed on a stone or something but a while later he started to limp and his left front leg is a little swollen on the back of the wrist and I can even see a bruise Sad

So if Arnica and rest don't help he'll have to go to the vets so I'll get them to check his prostate then. Mind you, I might take him for a prostate checkup anyway and then if thats normal I can relax more. His testicles are fine as I am quite happy to check them myself, which he loves Embarassed

but I draw the line at checking his prostate Shocked

I think neuturing an aggressive or moody dog will only help the temperament if the behaviour is being caused by hormones.

karenb

Helen

I do know of someone who had a bitch spayed, on the advice of a vet, as she was agressive towards other dogs. It actually made her worse and she had to be pts as she really was a danger.

I was worried about the working ability when we got our pointer spayed but I have to say, it did not affect her drive whatsoever. She was spayed at around 6 years old. I have seen a lab that had been neutered at 6 months on a shoot and he was just a big pup. I think he was about 5 years old and all he wanted to do was play with the other dogs - VERY annoying.

Hope everything goes well with Slate Josie.

Helen

Helen

josie

Helen, yes, there is one theory that says that for SOME aggressive bitches, spaying removes the "maternal" hormones and so makes them even less well-disposed to other dogs. There is some research online somewhere but I've lost the link.

I'd never breed from Slate as I don't think her hunting ability and nose are good enough. (This is as stark as night and day, watching Grey work and comparing the two!). Slate really loves to work with me, loves food and toys, loves to retrieve, handles really well, is a great picking up dog and is like a slightly hot labrador in most ways! But she's not independent enough or determined enough in terms of hunting and that's what a HPR has to be about. (Just this morning she pointed a rabbit in a load of nettles. I told her to get in, but she just moved along the nettles - she hates nettles and won't go in. I wanted to see if something was in there, so kicked them, and heard a rabbit running in there. She would have lost us that... Compare this to Grey who is such a clown and throws herself into the nettles like a spaniel, even when all she comes out with is a manky 3 week old rabbit carcass Shocked

!!! (I am trying to be ecstatic about receiving manky carcasses for now...!) Anyway, I can't see any reason to delay the inevitable and we may as well get her spayed now.