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Gunfield

champ shows and tails!

does anyone know what shows you can or can`t show a docked dog at?
cressy

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/999

Have a read of that and it will hopefully answer your questions.
BritAnnie

Basically any show which does not charge an entry fee for the general public(non exhibitors) can have docked dogs on show. AS a result, and as I predicted a year ago, many Champ shows are going to allow anyone into the shows free but are going to charge for car parking to make up their loss of income. Of course, now we will have nondocked breed exhibitors complaining that we are getting preferential treatment. And by the way, you can show ANY dog, whether docked or not (provided it was legally done) in Scotland. Ireland hasn't yet decided. Wales has gone with England. The point of the exercise by the Governement in stopping docked dogs being shown was that Joe Public wouldn't see them so the demand for them would lessen - FAT CHANCE!!! Theyse ruddy politiocians have their fingers in the wrong place - not on the pulse!
Ghilliegumdrop

Bit like you on your keyboard Rolling Eyes Perhaps we should have a spellchecker on here Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
Jan
BritAnnie

Can't help it if I have a computer speed brain and tractor speed fingers, can I? Wink
Ghilliegumdrop

Perhaps you should use the red [read] diesel then Exclamation Wink Wink
Jan
Sorry, blame it on the old bat being here Evil or Very Mad
BritAnnie

He he - just goes to show you can be amusing sometimes. O B should visit more often Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

(to everyone else Wink )
Gunfield

Permission to show?

Quick question my dog is a USA import so as such has been docked in the USA , I know he can not go to shows where an entrance fee is payable but do I need to appy for permission to show at the other shows? if so is there a form or do you just write to the KC? Confused
weima

I would write to the KC asking for Permission To Show then you are covered. I just wrote a letter with the dogs name & KC registration number on.
countrygirl

Gunfield,

how old is you dog, was it born before the new laws came in becasue if so it can be shown anywhere.

Caz
karenb

Its as clear as mud if you need permission to show a legally docked dog, and from what I have read, the KC advice on the web site is fundamentally contradicted by the KC F regs.

The KC publicity info says nothing about requiring prior premission to show for dogs docked prior to AWB, or for those legally docked after AWB. Information simply states dogs docked pre AWB can be exibited everywhere regardless of entry fees for the public, and for those docked after AWB,they can be shown at events where public are not charged for entrance. I have called the in KC in Feburary and the advice I was given verbally was that I did not need prior permission to show.  

However, the problem as I see it is with the newly revised F regulations, which have been altered to removed the clause which previously exempted Docking as an operation that altered the natural conformation of the dog . As a result the F regs currently read to the effect that ANY dog, regardless of when it was docked, would need proir permission to show as they have had an opperation that has altered the natural conformation of the dog !!!!!! To add to the confusion some schedules have the old F regs printed and NOT the current ones -- schedules from Higham have old regs but Fosse have the new ones !!!

Confused .. I certainly am !! As a result I applied for permission to show for my puppy in April and recieved a letter back within a week. I have also raised the question re the F regs with the KC and asked for clarification but as yet I have had no response ?

I have however subsequently applied for permission to show on a pup I had returned to me and I have recieved nothing from the KC for her  - my first letter was sent in May and I re-sent the letter again in June. Perhaps they are looking into the conflict betwen published advice and current F regs and are therefore not dealing with requests for pemission to show legally docked pups ??? I just wish they would let me know whats happening .. can I show this puppy or not ?????

In fact it would also be nice to have clarification on my 7yr old girl in veteran as I certainly haven't applied for permission to show her .. she won at our breed club show (the KC has issued her CC last week) and is entered at National Gundog but when reading the F regs as they stand she probably shouldn't be shown at all as I don't have permission   !!!!!


Karen
BritAnnie

Good grief - I didn't know all this had raised its hairy head again.  I suppose that means I can't show Hester(GWP) and Freckles (Brit) either as they've both been docked. They are both Vetarans too and I don't want to stop showing them.  Maybe everyone on here with dogs docked pre AWB should send in an application for Permission to show a docked dog and force the issue.  If the KC get flooded with applications they'd maybe throw a wobbly and maybe take a decision?
Anyone up for it?
weima

I applied for Permission To Show for ALL my pups in the litter that way if in future any of them wanted to show they can do  Wink

I am NOT applying for PtS for any of my dogs docked before 6 April 2007 & having spoken to the KC I don't need to either  Exclamation  Confused
karenb

Hi Weima

when did you apply for permission to show ?? I had no problem getting a response in April but have had nothing back for the other pup and is driving me crazy !!!

I am still not sure if permission to show is needed,  the KC told me I didn't need permission for the pups as they were legally docked BUT when I wrote (after reading the new F regs) they have issued a permission letter. If you don't need permission WHY are the processing permission requestes at all ???  Confused

As for the older dogs - I am still showing them and have not written for permission. However if you read the new F regs there is now no exemption for the shortening of dogs tails in customarily docked breeds regardless of when they were docked as Sub-section 3 (c) has been removed.

As I see this ANY dog with a docked tail is in contravention of the F regs - Preparation of Dogs for Exhibition,  unless it has prior permission to show. Perhaps NOT what the KC intended (especially as it is direct contradiction to the published advice) BUT that is how they are written. When we enter shows we all have to sign the declaration that startes we agree to submit to and be bound by the KC rules and Regs but my older docked dogs could be seen to be in breach of F reg subsection 3 a
3. No act or operation which alters the natural conformation of the dog or any part there of may be performed except:
a) operations certified to the staisfaction of the General Committee

Karen

I asked the KC to clarify this issue but mentioned previously I have had no response as yet .. should probably start to chase up an answer.
weima

I applied for PtS March/April this year & as far as I know they were all granted. They were sent back to the owners not me.

I would chase up Karen....have you tried speaking to Gary Johnson?
johnhod

Quote:
I suppose that means I can't show Hester(GWP) and Freckles (Brit)


They're going to have fun with Brittanys aren't they, trying to decide which have been docked and which haven't.
karenb

weima wrote:
I applied for PtS March/April this year & as far as I know they were all granted. They were sent back to the owners not me.

I would chase up Karen....have you tried speaking to Gary Johnson?


Hi
Got my permission for Purdy in under one week back in April but still nothing for Darcey after 2months !! Will start chasing the letter for Darcey next week .. off to your end of the world for a long weekend in the caravan in about 30mins  Very Happy


What do you make of the new F regs Weima ??  Am I reading them wrong ?? As they read I cannot see where any docked dog is exempted from prior permission to show ...  Confused

Karen
Gunfield

Thanks for your replies unfortunatley the dog was born June 2007 so after the docking ban.
Mike

Whilst I appreciate that you are saying that the rules have been changed in the F regs, this advie was taken from the KC website and apparently updated yesterday.

Quote:
Q & A FOR JUDGES

I am a Judge of a traditionally docked breed.  What am I supposed to do if I suspect that a dog before me has been docked illegally and should not therefore be shown? You should simply judge the dogs before you and should not become involved in any disputes or otherwise regarding whether or not a dog has been docked either legally or illegally.  This is a matter for the relevant authorities to deal with.

Q & A FOR SHOW ORGANISERS

As a show secretary of a show in England or Wales which charges the public for admission, am I required to deal with a complaint that a dog docked after the law changed, is being exhibited?
No.  In the event of an allegation of contravention of the law (either illegal docking or the illegal showing of dogs) the complainant should be advised to refer the matter to the relevant authorities. In normal circumstances, the Show Society or the Kennel Club should only take action to correct the situation if a successful prosecution has been brought against the alleged offender.  This advice may require to be reviewed if a body of case law is eventually established.

It would in the meantime be sensible for Show Societies to note any such complaints in the Show Incident Book in case they are asked to provide information on the matter to the authorities at a future date.


The clear intent would seem quite clear that the kc have no intention of enfrocing the docking ban even if you dog is being illegally shown (unless the relevant authorities succesfully prosecute you, which would obviously be impossible IF it is legally docked and shown). Are people worried that they will have awads removed without a PtS?

Confused
Mike

Whilst I appreciate that you are saying that the rules have been changed in the F regs, this advie was taken from the KC website and apparently updated yesterday.

Quote:
Q & A FOR JUDGES

I am a Judge of a traditionally docked breed.  What am I supposed to do if I suspect that a dog before me has been docked illegally and should not therefore be shown? You should simply judge the dogs before you and should not become involved in any disputes or otherwise regarding whether or not a dog has been docked either legally or illegally.  This is a matter for the relevant authorities to deal with.

Q & A FOR SHOW ORGANISERS

As a show secretary of a show in England or Wales which charges the public for admission, am I required to deal with a complaint that a dog docked after the law changed, is being exhibited?
No.  In the event of an allegation of contravention of the law (either illegal docking or the illegal showing of dogs) the complainant should be advised to refer the matter to the relevant authorities. In normal circumstances, the Show Society or the Kennel Club should only take action to correct the situation if a successful prosecution has been brought against the alleged offender.  This advice may require to be reviewed if a body of case law is eventually established.

It would in the meantime be sensible for Show Societies to note any such complaints in the Show Incident Book in case they are asked to provide information on the matter to the authorities at a future date.


The clear intent would seem quite clear that the kc have no intention of enfrocing the docking ban even if you dog is being illegally shown (unless the relevant authorities succesfully prosecute you, which would obviously be impossible IF it is legally docked and shown). Are people worried that they will have awads removed without a PtS?

Confused
Helen

Interesting Mike.  Wonder if anyone will test to see what would happen about showing a dog that was docked illegally?

Helen
karenb

Hi Mike

Not particularly worried about having awards removed as I do not believe the KC has a problem with docked dogs , nor do I believe it wishes to make it difficult for people to show docked dogs. Howvrver changes made to rules/regs post AWB and published KC advice are in conflict with each other and that surely cannot be right ??

Having docked my last litter I opted to apply for a permission to show as I noted the change in the F regs, which now has no excemption for docking as an operation which alters the natural conformation of the dog. As it was as clear as mud if I needed permission or not I called the KC and was told NO I did not need permission BUT various dog press writters were making comments about legally docked dogs needed permission to show so I guess they were drawing the same conclusions as myself. I also noted that other exhibitors with legally docked dogs were applying, and being given permissions as published in the kennel gazette. IF permission is NOT required why are the KC processing requests ??
Confused  Confused  Confused  if in doubt apply ...

I do think the KC need to address the conflict between its advice and its own F regs .... every show I enter I sign to say I accept that I am bound by KC rules. Later in the year when I was entering my older docked dogs I also realised the implication of the F regs change for them ... when I enter my older dogs I am technically in breech of those rules as they are docked and I have no permission to show for these dogs !!

Surely all that is needed is for the F regs to have the docking clause re-instated to reflect dogs docked before April 07 and those legally docked after 07 are excempted from requiring permission to show and the  F regs and the advice would all match ...

Karen
countrygirl

Hi Helen,

I dont think it is a case of showing an illeagly docked dog but showing a leaglly docked dog at a show where the publu pays to get in.

Caz
BritAnnie

The phrase on the front of the schedule of shows surely is what we go by - "only undocked and legally docked dogs may be exhibited at this show"
All dogs docked prior to the ban were legally docked.  I'm not going to request a permission to show for Freckles and Hester.  I wonder if anyone will challenge the many natural bobtail Brittanys around?  My vet is ready to come over as soon as Belle has her pups next month to give me a certificate for any born with short or bobtails.  
The only problems are the shows which charge admission for the general public - I think there are about 6 and our Secretary is sending me a list I think.
Annie
weima

I am not applying for PtS for Pagan or Quba but I note that in this months Kennel Gazette only 2 of my pups are listed as been legally docked, the other 2 haven't appeared and they all applied at the same time  Confused
tashap

Do you still have to pay a fee if you want to make a complaint about a dog not meeting the rules and regs at a show???  I asked about this once before and was told that someone would have to make a formal complaint and pay a fee, it is then evaluated by someone at the kennel club...

After paying out all that money for a show in the first place not sure how many would 1) want to make the complaint 2) pay the fee
weima

It is £35 to put a complaint in & you can either do it at a show by going to the secretary or you can ask a breed club for its support.
karenb

weima wrote:
I am not applying for PtS for Pagan or Quba but I note that in this months Kennel Gazette only 2 of my pups are listed as been legally docked, the other 2 haven't appeared and they all applied at the same time  Confused


Hi Weima .. I had to chase up the PTS for the pup I had returned. I sent 2 letters one in May & one in June, the lady who does the PTS said she hand't recieved the letters  Confused  After a thrid attempt I have my PTS.

Not applying for the older girls but the rules, the statements on the front of shedules and the published advice are a contradictory mess and should be brought in line. JMHO

Tashap .. yes if you wish to make a complaint at a show you need to pay £35.00 however from the press statements (see Mikes post) it is clear the KC will not take action, only refer the complainant to the relevant authorities..  

Karen
countrygirl

I sent off a letter to KC asking for permission to show Wookie at the same time as adding my affix to her name and have heard back today saying they need a letter from the vet Twisted Evil  Twisted Evil  so much for them not having a problem with the showing of docked dogs.

Did anyone else have to send 'proof' from what I have read I took it that you dident.

I do wonder if the KC dident bother to check their records and wonder if I am asking about a older dog Idea  suppose I will have to get onto phone nest week and try and sort it Rolling Eyes

Also my mistake I registared her in joint names me and my hisband and the affix is in my name so I need to registar her in my name only so another £12  to do that and then  add the affix, they have told me to fill in the change of ownership on her registration form(which I sent to them and they dident send back Evil or Very Mad ) just aswell she isent old enough to do anything till January Rolling Eyes

Caz
karenb

Hi

there is info published in this months Kennel Gazette re showing of docked dogs.

The rules have been published re shows with entrance fees etc PLUS the The KC have now actually published a statement to the effect that  a anyone who wishes to show a legally docked dog must apply for permission to show. The owner must write to the KC and submit a copy of the legal docking certificate  or in the case of an older dog, who has required amputation due to injury, a vet letter.  

When I applied for my pups I did enclose copies of the docking certificate

Karen
BritAnnie

Did they qualify this to the effect that this applies only to dogs docked after the Animal Welfare Acts came into force?  If not, they are going to get a helluva lot of applications!
BA
countrygirl

Thanks  Karan,

I wasent sure weather you had encolsed a copy of the vets certificate but that clears it up, I still think it makes a mockery of them not policeing the new law, I wonder if they are going to start charging for the permission to show bit too Shocked

I dont read the dog press so am getting behind on all the changes or should that read moving the goal posts Shocked

Caz
weima

I sent a copy of the docking certificate as it does say somewhere that proof will be needed.
susiezarp

Simon surely if he was docked before 6/4/07 you can show anywhere regardless of entry fees being charged
Susie

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