cressy
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ChaseWe have had a good morning. I took him to the shooting lodge and all we were doing was hunting.
We walked partially away from the lodge before starting as there was a GWT held over the weekend and I wanted to move him away from the ground that had been used. As we arrived at our start point we did a little reminder that I am in charge, he is great sitting waiting to be released although you can see him all quivering to go. I released him to hunt and off he went like a tornado, he soon settled down though and was running well and turning when I asked (not often incase I muck him up, just enough to remind him he is with me  ).
After about 5 mins he went on point and as I approached he produced a cock pheasant, at the moment he is flushing by himself as he is not experienced enough and the more birds we get the more I will impose control. At the moment he just needs to get the connection that the bird is what we are after.
He thoroughly investigated where the bird had been and then I called him on. We did a little control work before I released him to hunt again. As we proceeded towards a stream I noticed two fantastic male Roe Deer in full antler. They were watching us quietly and Chase hadn't sighted them although I think he had winded them, I asked him to sit and then made enough noise to move the deer on, I wanted Chase close enough to ensure he stayed sat - which he did without me physically restraining him in any way  .
As we progressed I could see he was starting to tire when I saw a cock bird wandering ahead of us. I guided Chase onto the bird which he didn't sight - he followed the bird scent for a few minutes as the crafty bird scurried out of sight. We both lost the bird when we had to clamber over a fallen log  .
Next bird Chase practically fell over and as it flushed from under his paws he was prompted to chase  , thankfully he responded quickly to the whistle and stopped (without sit) and returned eagerly.
By now he really was understanding what we were there for although he was tiring and he also had a tummy upset so we called it a day.
As we walked back to the car with him off lead and staying close if not exactly to heel he again tripped over a hen bird. This time I was quick enough on the whistle as as she got up he kind of sat, bum certainly lowered although it didn't connect with the ground. He gave me a very arrogant stare so we didn't move on until that bum went were I expected it .
I was happy with how he behaved, we hope to be back tomorrow and wednesday so he will be getting plenty of hunting. I have been lucky so far that all the birds we have found have been when we were close so he is seeing me as a worthwhile hunting partner.
One thing I have noticed is that he is much keener to work on my right hand side than my left, even in still conditions so I need to set him up to work the other side as well I guess???
He is now sound asleep dreaming happily.
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windem bang
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Sounds really good Sue, wish it was me, I'm having to work for my birds !!!
If you are having problems with an uneven hunt and the ground allows it , try hunting him a few times on a partial cheek-wind with that wind coming slightly onto your right cheek. Chase should then be more inclined to hunt further out to the left.
Bill T.
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cressy
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Thanks Bill, we are back there tomorrow so wind permitting I will see what I can do.
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Claire
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Sounds fantastic! Well done ickle Chase.
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Marjolein
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Fantastic reading Sue!!! I love to see how you two enjoy this!!!
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cressy
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Today saw us working in hail, sleet and glorious sunshine .
I am now working on a lovely piece of rolling ground with a young winter wheat or similar crop which I have been advised is ideal for training for SPT.
The other day I could not get him running freely and today my heart sank as we had heeled up the hill on lead to emerge through the woods and see rabbits playing  . Chase sat immediately without input from me but boy was he distracted!!! After bunnies had gone I set him up (so he wouldn't work over that ground) but he kept turning to look where they had gone. It took me three attempts to get him running in the direction I wanted and it was becoming a battle of wills - I WON.
After about a minute he settled into a lovely wide ranging pattern (equal either side of me more or less) into the wind, he was turning into the wind well and I was very pleased.
Of course it didn't all go well - he bumped 2 partridge but then again they were the first he has encountered, he tried a chase on some field birds (I am no twitcher and have no idea what they were) but he quickly settled back in line when called off the run.
On the whole there was a lot to be pleased with. On the way back to the lodge he was a naughty boy, he did a small chase on a muntjac and declined to come back  , when I got the b*****d he had to heel all the way back - I think he realised he had pushed far enough as he was as angelic as a Brittany can be .
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windem bang
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QUOTE - "as angelic as a Brittany can be." That's about the equivalent of a G.S.P. on a bad day !
Good on yer Sue ! Sock it to him !!!
Bill T.
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cressy
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Today I could see his learning, we were working the same ground but from a different start point due to the wind and his hunting was lovely, he only backcast once.
He bumped his first partridge and he never truly achieved a point but on the two occasions he thought he had partridge he really steadied himself down. He flash pointed on one occasion then looked confused as he cast around and couldn't find a bird. I neither praised nor told him off, I think I saw a partridge legging it away but couldn't be sure so I just gave him a little breather and reassurrance before casting him off again. The second time he knew there was a bird but in trying to move in closer it spooked and got up behind him as he turned to check out a tussock , he hadn't really bumped it but it was obviously skittish.
He is by no means pefect (or remotely approaching competent ) and I am sure that my first SPT will be a farce but I am going with an open mind and a view that if nothing more it will be great experience for both of us. We have a few more opportunities to train round work and my surgery, it is also not ideal he will be in kennels for the first time just before this SPT but we will do our best and see what we can achieve (or not). I could take the safe option and not try but what will we learn by that??
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Helen S
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Go for it Sue, as you said it will be good experience for you both anyway. I found that when I have really had doubts about entering the actuality is never as bad as my expectations. I also find that the dog is far more attentive on strange ground and hunts better because they have no expectations where they will have a find.
Helen S
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BritAnnie
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I hope that those of you going to the SPT will also have a go at the Working Gundog Certificate since the KC have given us their permission to put this one - no extra charge for it and enter on the day.
BA
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Marjolein
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When is your first trial Sue?
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cressy
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First trial is a way off Mar but our Spring Pointing Test is a week away. I am going just hoping for a good run and a pup that minds his mum .
Today I have been training with the Brittany Clubs FT Sec and his young dog (a year older than Chase).
Both dogs worked really nicely and Chase had no interest in the other dog while he was hunting, an improvement as last time he had an audience he couldn't concentrate at all.
Chase was hunting wide, fast and well. He found a partridge but couldn't hold it but my companion was very impressed with how he was running for a young dog. Barney had a couple of points and held his bird well on one occasion and less well on the other. Both youngsters made mistakes but they did deal well with wind that kept changing and then driving rain .
We headed back to the lodge and the sun came out so after a picnic lunch we headed to the duck pond. Barney and Chase thought is was fab, being led towards loads of ducks .
Chase has not yet gained confidence to get into water so I wanted him to watch. He only needed to see Barney do it once and he was itching for a piece of the action. The first attempt we had to send Barney in for the dummy, the second Chase waded out on the shelf and was able to retrieve without swimming so I repeated that distance three times. Then I threw the dummy further and he did it , he swam, collected and brought it back to me. Ok, I was gathering my lad in for a cuddle and loads of reassurance so I was very wet . Final throw and a certain dog kept swimming with his dummy and ended up on the wrong side of the pond. He came back without dummy so an ideal setup to send Barney in for a semi blind, he wasn't sure (still only a young dog) but he got the dummy after three attempts and he was very proud of himself.
A very successful few hours for both dogs.
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Helen
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Sounds like it was sucessful. Good luck in the spt! You'll have fun whatever the outcome, but I'm sure you will do well.
I have a secret weapon where water is concerned. A certainly spaniel, called Pippa! lol. Any dog watching her is itching to get in for a swim.
Helen
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windem bang
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He's going well Sue - keep it up.
Bill T.
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cressy
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Well, after a busy weekend of travel, the SPT and his first invite to another house Chase was back to training today.
Mindful of what I learned at the weekend the plan for today was control. I worked on sharpening up his sit to whistle, his sit stays and his heel work. He worked his little socks off and did really nicely. Encouraged with his responsiveness I took out the dummy and tried some retrieves.
We had a couple of long seen retrieves (well as far as I can throw them ) that went well, he sat as I threw them, hurtled off at top speed when asked and he came back to me, circled me once then sat by my side for a cuddle before letting me take the dummy. A couple of memories that he did pretty well then a memory he fluffed completely as a pheasant flushed while we were walking away from the dummy (and yes he sat to flush nicely). This seemed to dent his confidence so a couple of fast seens that I let him run in on. Final stage was him sat while I lobbed dummies which I then picked up myself and a last fairly easy memory so he was rewarded with the dummy.
After lunch (we start training with coffee and biscuits, train for a couple of hours then eat lunch before the afternoon session - it has to be civilised!!) he did a very short session with a Bolting Rabbit and he was sooooo good, as this was his first time seeing it I had him sat to watch, first time it was released he crept forward slightly but the next times he was solid in his sit. Next stage with that will have him walking around the field near the Bolting Rabbit and getting him to sit to release. We also plan on attaching a pheasant and a partridge to the elastic for helping teach steadiness as we progress through.
The rest of the time I was helping my friends with their spaniels and the only contact Chase has with them is to watch and keep his gob shut. He is really improving with this even when he wants to join in.
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BritAnnie
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What do you do to stop him if he wants to join in - a very vocal 'no'?
| Quote: | | I worked on sharpening up his sit to whistle, his sit stays and his heel w |
How do you do this? Just do it more often and on lead so you have control, then re-inforce if he's not quick enough?
Just wondered as I don't often have Allez on leads now but his reactions can be a little deliberated if his mind isn't on the job. I tend to blow the whistle a bit louder a second time if he doesn't sit immediately but maybe that's wrong, is it? Should I keep him on lead? I do hope I'll have more hands on help when I've moved South - remote control doesn't work for me, I'm afraid. I need demos, book learning was never my forte.
BA
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cressy
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When he is gobby I tell him no and walk him away. While he is sitting quietly I will praise him and quietly stroke him. At the moment he is very keen to participate but if he does lie down in a settled position I praise and then pop my foot on his lead and relax my body posture too. I am hoping that getting him out more and more in company where he has to watch will teach him that patience will get his reward, it just needs me to be very consistent.
Sit to whistle I am doing with treats. So with him close he is whistled to sit and as soon as bum hits deck he gets a treat. When he has got the reminder I will extend the distance and blow the whistle, if bum hits ground fast he gets his treat, if he is slow he doesn't and will get a quick acknowledgement and then we move off and try again. I try to keep going to the point that he does about 10 swift responses without anticipation at which point I leave off before he gets bored.
One thing we were advised at the weekend (which has been recommended on here too) is to get the dog to sit to any movement - so sparrows or pheasant or hare will become a training opportunity so that you eventually get an immediate response of flush = sit. I have seen that when Chase is close to me this is starting to become an automatic response but when he is more distant he is not yet as reliable. As he has done more hunting his control responses were getting sloppy so homework is back to basics.
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BritAnnie
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I have been trying this with Allez - sit to little birds, but the only way I can do that is if I am within distance to control him if he doesn't sit. I have tried a long line on him(only about 30 feet) but he goes so fast I can't keep up to step on it, and if I hold the line he stops hunting. He totally ignores the little tweetie pies but doesn't sit yet. Just going back out with him now so will have another go. Spent this morning disentangling the 50 metre cord the cats got a hold of (as posted to another thread with photos  )
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cressy
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I am doing most of this training away from hunting practice Annie. Today we were walking round the shooting grounds under control and without his hunting command. He didn't get a huning session at all.
The way I am training in effect is a session of control, a session of retrieving and a session of hunting. He doesn't get all of these necessarily each outing and when John was coming over the last couple of times all the control he was having before a hunting session was a controlled walk up the hill. At this point he needs to have more control and controlled retrieves as I know he can hunt. If he does well with the control he will get a hunting session but if he goes wild then he will be back to control.
Does that make sense??
BTW, one of the main times I use the long line is more that it trails when he is hunting so that if he goes on point I may have a better chance of controlling the outcome. I find them hard to use and although he wore one a few times for retrieving I have found that runnign away from him and cuddles with the dummy has been more successful than reeling him in.
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BritAnnie
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Thanks, Sue. That is much better explained than anything else I've read either on here or in any book. Are you a lecturer by any chance? I have probably disadvantaged myself by helping run teh trainign days instead of taking part - that stops now! Poor John, he'll need another willing slave
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Bareve
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| BritAnnie wrote: | | I have been trying this with Allez - sit to little birds, but the only way I can do that is if I am within distance to control him if he doesn't sit. I have tried a long line on him(only about 30 feet) but he goes so fast I can't keep up to step on it, and if I hold the line he stops hunting. He totally ignores the little tweetie pies but doesn't sit yet. ) |
Basically Anne, from what you have written, he isn't reliable to the sit command. So he is either being disobedient or disrespectful - either way I would give him some pretty intensive heel work, sit stays, sit to whistle on lead and then off lead before he was allowed too much more freedom. In effect he has to earn his right to his freedom - his hunting can be his reward for his obedience.
One other "little" point I am presuming you are using two toots for his stop whistle command? Well you must be as you said you are blowing the second whistle harder? So you are already conditioning him to ignore the first whistle and there will always be a second command before he needs to react
If he doesn't sit to that first whistle you need to get out to him as quick as you can and "make" him sit. You may only need to do it the once and then he will see you "about" to head out to him and his bottom will hit the floor. Dogs can be selective about the sitting to command as they "know" the handler is unlikely to make any attempt to "get out there" and sort them. 
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BritAnnie
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I have tried that - just giving him one whistle command to sit. If he doesn't do it quickly enough I head towards him. As soon as he realises I'm on the way his ears go back, his head goes down and he lies flat. But it doesn't make his bum go down any faster next time. I don't often use a second whistle, almost always it's a fairly long single blast. I had a little success tonight though. I did some basic obedience work with him in the garden - sits, stays, recalls, drop during walk to heel, then call into heel again - all done pretty smartly off lead. As a reward later I took him out to do a little bit of hunting, and he was doing very fast recalls from a fair distance, and his turns were there although a little sloppy. There were a couple of just going to bed birdies which I sat him to at a distance of about 10 yards, although he wasn't really interested in them, but then he saw a crow flying off and set off after it - only the fence stopped him, not my whistle. So it's back to the grden and instant sits tomorrow.
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Bareve
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| BritAnnie wrote: | | I have tried that - just giving him one whistle command to sit. If he doesn't do it quickly enough I head towards him. As soon as he realises I'm on the way his ears go back, his head goes down and he lies flat. But it doesn't make his bum go down any faster next time. I. |
then I am guessing he thinks you don't really mean it and only mean it when you are running out to him
One thing is for sure if my youngster is "slow" on his sit whistle and he see's me running out to him you can bet your bottom dollar his sit's are "very" much quicker for the rest of his training session. But then again he knows better than to take the mickey out of me
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BritAnnie
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Thereby lies the problem - I am too fat to run and he has probably sussed that.
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guy
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does he sit when you blow 'sit' as he walks at heel.
will he sit when you blow sit when he is five feet in front?
will he sit to whistle as he returns to you?
will he sit to whistle when you are out of sight - in a different room for instance?
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Ghilliegumdrop
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No he won't
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guy
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then sort that before thinking about anything else
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johnhod
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Annie, try setting him up to make it easy for yourself. If you can get to the top of a hill and then recall him and blow the sit whistle as he is coming in you have two things in your favour: He's running uphill so he'll be slower (though not necessarily noticably so) and you will be towering above him when you give the command (making you look bigger and more imposing).
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cressy
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Annie, as you know I am very new to the breed and so hesitate to offer advice in the one sense.
From what you have said about Allez it seems you are expecting him to switch from having a lot of freedom to do his own thing (even if well behaved) to minding his manners and working without a great deal of diffentiation as to which type of outing it is.
Chase is doing all his training from a working perspective in a place he is not allowed to play or not mind me, if he doesn't mind his manners he is back in the car and Mugi or Freddy are brought out to train. I am very lucky that this area is vast and has a number of different habitats.
When he is allowed to 'play' at other venues he still has to recall, sit at a (shorter) distance and stop when told to but here 'punishment' will usually be being popped on the lead. I give him a separate command - go play in this case which all my dogs understand as you can play together but you still have to behave!!!
As we are finding too many game birds on our rec walks he now only goes with company to game free areas so he isn't hunting in company and won't miss the opportunity to steady his pointing.
What I am trying to say, in a waffly way is that I have realised that if Chase is ever to compete successfully he needs to be managed in a slightly different way. He lives in the house, he is a pet, he is a show dog but when we are working he can not mess about, even very simple training is done so he is in no doubt what I expect. I am not setting him up to spoil his training in his play sessions.
I think you need to have a long think about what you want to achieve with Allez, if you want a nicely behaved dog who can do a little bit of work then you are fine as you are. If you want to see where you can take him I think you need to change his lifestyle so he learns the NILIF rule.
So right back to very basics, garden as you have then a secure but boring piece of ground then increase distraction slowly. If he ignores you when training then he needs to be put away and no freedom to hunt till he has learned that Mum is boss and all hunting is with Mum and for Mum. If you let him off to hunt and you see him pop up the two fingers then as soon as you have caught him up take him home. Don't keep blowing a whistle if he is ignoring, turn and walk away, only repeat the command once you feel he is actually going to obey then remember to praise (even if it is through gritted teeth!!).
Chase gets a pretty structured training plan, he is trained one to one although sometimes with Barney as an audience or in the case of water retrieves as an example.
I am starting each training session with a recap of what was done previously especially with control. I am not pushing too fast and if he is failing it is usually cos I have got it wrong. We started sits and stops near the lodge and I am now moving him into more gamey areas. Since he started hunting I could see his stop and sit at a distance were getting sloppy so he will continue to do those exercises until he is fast responding then he will get up on the birds again (cock phezzies primarily and not breeding groups).
I haven't trained a working gundog before as you know and I am so grateful to all the help I am getting. I nearly fell into the trap of not ensuring Chase really understands me as he is very bright. Now I go slower and ensure his base behaviours are solid before moving on.
At the SPT I got stuff wrong but he wasn't out of control and he did recall to me at the end of his run when I could see he was still wanting to hunt, it could have been very different but I could see how he does know what I expect and he will respond against his desire.
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Bareve
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| johnhod wrote: | | Annie, try setting him up to make it easy for yourself. If you can get to the top of a hill and then recall him and blow the sit whistle as he is coming in you have two things in your favour: He's running uphill so he'll be slower (though not necessarily noticably so) and you will be towering above him when you give the command (making you look bigger and more imposing). |
That's a good idea - thanks for sharing that one - one to store in the grey matter
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Bareve
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| cressy wrote: | Annie, as you know I am very new to the breed and so hesitate to offer advice in the one sense.
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Don't knock yourself Cressy you may be new to the breed but this was a well written email with lots of common sense
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windem bang
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Agreed .
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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Jan - pleae do NOT answer for me - they all read that as coming from me! He DOES sit when 5 feet in front, he does sit when at my side to the whistle, he DOES sit if in another room and I blow the whistle. So would all like to rephrase what you have posted. Thank you
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BritAnnie
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This is all very well but how does he get the exercise he needs if he is on the lead all the time? AS to what I want to do with him, all I want is a SGWC or an award at a FT. I do not like the mass shooting that goes on at driven shoots so I will not beat or pick up.
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johnhod
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I don't think the suggestion is that he's on the lead ALL the time, rather that he needs to appreciate that free running is a privilege not a right. He enjoys his freedom and is being rewarded for disobedience by being allowed to continue running free. The consequence of bad behaviour is a restriction on the amount of freedom he is given.
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Bareve
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| BritAnnie wrote: | | This is all very well but how does he get the exercise he needs if he is on the lead all the time? AS to what I want to do with him, all I want is a SGWC or an award at a FT. I do not like the mass shooting that goes on at driven shoots so I will not beat or pick up. |
Annie you are getting defensive but what we are doing is responding to what you have previously said on this thread.
I and I can't see any others who have said he must stay on the lead but if he isn't sitting to the stop whistle "all" the time then the stop whistle command isn't fully working - that's a fact
If he is allowed to disobey the stop whistle by ignoring and not sitting, or plain running through the whistle - then it's not working - that's also a fact
Having been and done SGWC and F/T's I can certainly say that any degree of unsteadiness of tweetie pies and the likes will "certainly" show as unsteadiness when on game. The excitement and temptation is simply too great hence the stop whistle has to be as close to 100% as it can be. It happens as it happened to my older F/T dog. He is completely steady to tweetie pies, rabbits, hares, deer, sheep, horses whatever (sometimes 200-300 yards away - he stops without the need of a whistle as times he isn't within hearing distance). He is also steady to the flush and shot of the gun....... however he isn't "always" steady to the fall of the shot bird and that's even with me shouting like a banshee and running after him. So even the most steady of dogs can be unsteady on game.......
All too often we prefer to skip the boring control part but without that firm grounding in place the rest of it becomes too unstable to make good progress.
As I said previously he is either being disobedient, disrespectful (he thinks you don't really mean it) or maybe your commands are a little slow so he takes the delay as you not communicating so he then takes control of the situation himself.
I'm certainly not getting at you Annie in anyway but trying to offer some help so you can get this "tardiness" nipped well and truly in the bud
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windem bang
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I've been struggling to stay out of this one !!! A working dog gets the exercise it needs by being walked / free run in non -gamey areas and worked in progressively more gamey areas. If I read Cressies post correctly that is pretty much what she stated in it.
So with Allez he could have had some free running around your large "garden" Annie and you could have taken him out of it for training - every day if possible.
You may disaprove of large shoots but beggars can't be choosers. Getting someone prepared to go out with you, using their land and their game to train your dog will be next door to impossible. A few trips out with a pro trainer should help you but it will not give the dog anything like the experience level he'll need for a trial award of any kind. Not unless you are very, very lucky on the day.
What you want is attainable Annie but many of the folk on this forum are striving for the same and they are not chucking away chances to give their dogs game experience. If you can train your dog well enough and get a chance to go to a big shoot , grab the chance with both hands. I don't know how else you will give him ANY experience.
Bill T.
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Bareve
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| windem bang wrote: | You may disaprove of large shoots but beggars can't be choosers. Getting someone prepared to go out with you, using their land and their game to train your dog will be next door to impossible. A few trips out with a pro trainer should help you but it will not give the dog anything like the experience level he'll need for a trial award of any kind. Not unless you are very, very lucky on the day.
Bill T. |
This was discussed yesterday when we had our lunch during a partridge counting session
We concluded that there was only a certain amount of work/improvement can be attained by using the same ground, doing the same things on a "very" regular basis. Dogs learn by experience and we all agreed that dogs learn to handle game by actual first hand experience with game on new ground. Personally I would rather have not driven 130 mile round trip yesterday but what the two dogs got out of the day I would never have presented them with the same opportunity on the ground I use on a daily basis. Coupled with someone "capable" of analysising your handling and ground treatment is such a help to make sure you aren't creating bad habits
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | | Dogs learn by experience |
| Quote: | | someone "capable" of analysising your handling and ground treatment |
Let me put this straight, I DO appreciate all the advice I'm getting from you all, make no mistake about that, but the two quotes from Sharon above really should put it all in perspective for you so you can understand my position. I get defensive because I cannot see any way out of my problems and I get depressed about it. I sometimes think I should just come off this forum altogether, just muddling along until I can find a trainer to help....... I'd certainly feel emotionally better, and you lot probably would too We only have Lab trainers up here, or spaniel ones, and they aren't interested except for retrieving - and I have to say Stuart did help me with that. Once a month at the HPR sessions just wasn't enough, especially when they co-incided with Club events and I missed them - and it was pretty basic obedience and retrieve stuff anyway without any hunting experience except when he escaped.
Everyone learns by experience, my dog doesn't get that experience for a number of reason which I hope to rectify after I have settled into my new abode. I have nowhere to run him other than my own field except if on a line or flexi - that is a fact of life up here. I cannot get permission from anyone, as there are sheep everywhere.
I have three other dogs to exercise and who need my attention as well as him
Until recently I had other animals too which also needed some time, even just on cleaning their quarters
I am on my own, I have no-one to discuss training issues with, as they happen, like John used to with me, and yes I know there are others on here who are single but they have friends they go training with - as I said I am in a minority of one HPR person up here
Please don't look at these as excuses, they are reasons.
However, some of the advice which has been given (and received  ) in good spirit has helped me get Al sitting to whistle every time in the last two days albeit only in what Bill terms as my large garden - 10 acres of rough ground. There is no game in it apart from the odd pheasant and some skylarks, on which he is now sitting most of the time, even though as he ignores them he can't know why I am sitting him. The pheasant is a different matter - it's real! And the line just stops him hunting altogether.
Perhaps I'll find a proper trainer in a few weeks time, and OK I may have to go picking up - again that is something I have tried to get into up here for, believe it or not, 5 YEARS -, up here they DO NOT WANT TO KNOW!!!!! It's a closed shop. I've asked Sue so many times and she just says, well they prefer someone they know - so how did she get to know them? Her trainer introduced her, that's what!
Some people have vaguely offered to meet up and help me but when push comes to shove they aren't there for me. Everyone is too busy with their own lives.
A
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lagopuslagopus
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You could offer to pay them if they let you go and pick up. That way they might want to get to know you.
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windem bang
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I can see the difficulties but can also see why nobody took you picking -up with them. A certain basic level of control is needed and I.M.O. Allez is not at that level.
A picking up dog Must recall to whistle - even with game flying and maybe running everywhere. Some dogs are as good as gold about doing that even in the face of considerable temptation but my guess is Allez isn't in their ranks - neither are my dogs ! I have to come down hard on them at times to ensure they do obey. I'm afraid doing that goes with the territory. In general, the keen dogs are the most disobedient at shoots, I understand that and train accordingly.
I rather suspect that the people you have asked to take you picking up in the past did not want the responsibility of introducing a handler with a dog that they knew did not have the level of control needed at a shoot.
That is one of the reasons why I have spent a year nagging at you to get out of your garden an awful lot more. What he does for you in a garden or field attached to your house is a very different thing to his likely behaviour "out in the wilds."
Bill T.
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Helen
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Picking up - you won't get it until you can prove you and your dog are good. That usually means spending time in the beating line. That is how keepers know how good you are. There are far more beaters required on a shoot, than pickers up. Pickers up have been on the same estate for years and it is difficult to get in, particularly if they don't know you.
I have found that it is difficult to get into a shooting community - it's who you know. I know NOBS is out there doing their job but my experience, they want to know who they are getting on their ground. We started off on one small syndicate shoot, which shot every other week. By the end of the 5 years we were in Northumberland, we had 5 shoots to go to and were beating/shooting up to 5 times a week during the season. Moving to a different area, we are lucky in that Rob's job involves keepers so we already have a foot in the door.
Re: trainers or people to train with - have you put it out there that you wish to do have a training buddy? There are boards - this one, shooting community, nobs, which have like-minded people who may want to meet up. I was amazed at how many people had an hpr on a shooting board I visit.
Keeping a dog on lead - I've done that and it works. My springer was a nightmare - totally my mistakes - and I went RIGHT back to basics - heeling on the lead, sitting, staying and didn't allow her any free running. It didn't kill her to be restricted for a few weeks and I saw a MASSIVE improvement in her behaviour. Just the training was enough to tire her out. Yes, it's nice to give them free running but that's not what always tires them. Mental stimulation is the key and it knackers them.
You just have to think that a really big committment now for a few weeks, will pay dividends for the future.
Just my thoughts after skimming through the board.
Helen
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lagopuslagopus
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I quite agree with everything you said Bill. I'm lucky as we were asked to go on the shoots where we pick up when we moved to Wales so all my puppies come with me as they appear, but, I wouldn't take one if it was likely not to be under control.
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sako75
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Annie ,
I may have been one of those who said that they would meet up and offer some game to train on last season. I said this to a few people last season but never got round to inviting them all due to other commitments etc etc. I will make a deal with you right now :-
If you continue to train Allez this year then I will 100% invite you up to my ground for a day or two in November and offer to shoot over Allez for you - this will give you something to work towards. I am not in a posistion to offer much advice or experience but I can offer plenty of guaranteed opportunites for testing Allez's steadiness and retrieving skills - let me re-phrase that , not testing him but rather giving him the experience that he needs on live game.
The only advice that I can give you for the coming months is to practice ,practice practice and if you come up against a problem area - post it on this forum no matter how insignificant you think the problem may be, there is always good advice on here as you know. If I have a problem , this forum is always the first port of call and cry for help - 9/10 my problems are resolved or at least I learn what I should do to rectify them. I consider this forum every bit as good as having an actual experienced training partner and you should embrace all the help and support that you do get on here - along with the banter of course
I will see you in November and I look forwards to it.
Barry.
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | | can also see why nobody took you picking -up with them. A certain basic level of control is needed and I.M.O. Allez is not at that level. |
They wouldn't have known that as they hadn't even asked about him, just what breed was he, and shook their heads when they heard he was a Brittany, and anyway I also asked to go without a dog to see how things were done - I still wasn't asked. You have to be asked up here apparently. As I said before it is a closed shop. Someone actually said - oh you don't want to come on our shoot, it's always cold and wet and it's not much fun - so why did they go on it?
I also asked about beating and was told none of them needed any beaters.
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windem bang
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I think you will find that no matter where you live or what breed of dog you have - you will still have to be asked.
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | If you continue to train Allez this year then I will 100% invite you up to my ground for a day or two in November and offer to shoot over Allez for you - this will give you something to work towards. I am not in a posistion to offer much advice or experience but I can offer plenty of guaranteed opportunites for testing Allez's steadiness and retrieving skills - let me re-phrase that , not testing him but rather giving him the experience that he needs on live game.
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This is exactly what I could have been doing with while I was within easy reach of you, Barry. But thank you very much, I will gratefully accept your kind offer, and promise to work on Allez from now on - I have been out with him to day and he is stopping every time on the whistle. Yes, Bill, in my what you call garden but as I am packing I don't have so much time - I'm just off to have tea, then get Hester out for a quick run then up the road with Al for some obedience before it gets dark. On the road, not in a field, and no free running, on the lead first and if that is OK, off the lead too. I'll take the pistol in case he breaks as I know he'll stop to that instanlty.
As soon as I move I'll be getting in touch with a trainer mentioned on here a while ago so that should help too.
Thank you for all your input, and thanks again Barry for your very kind and much appreciated offer. At last I have something to work for.
BA
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | | I think you will find that no matter where you live or what breed of dog you have - you will still have to be aske |
Exactly, without even considering what I or my dog could do I wasn't asked. I'd have been quite happy to go beating without a dog to start with. Perhaps things will go better in the Central Belt, if not, I'll just stick to showing.
BA
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BritAnnie
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Apologies, Sue, I have hijacked again!
Back to Chase!!!!
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sako75
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| Quote: | | and thanks again Barry for your very kind and much appreciated offer. |
No problem Annie , Sorry about last season but to be honest the season seemed to be over all too quickly what with shoot days , picking up , beating , syndicate days etc etc. Being busy every weekend probably had something to do with it.
I can't offer much in the way of hunting / ranging but from what I have read of your diary Allez seems to hunt pretty well. Allez will get lots of opportunities to point, flush on command and retrieve on my ground so in that sense you should benefit from the days.
You could maybe help me with Millie by restraining the bloody dog when I shoot the birds ....................... a few run-in issues still to be resolved .
Barry.
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Claire
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Annie, when you move down are you gonna book to see Tom Brechney? I would if I were you. He has been worth his weight in gold to me and he tells it as it is. You have to be prepared to put in the hard work at all other times ie when you are not training with him, but he is always on the end of the phone for questions, especially when he knows you are serious. Tom is only going to be about 40 mins from you and if you want a bit of moral support I'd be happy to meet you with him, with or without my dog.
Hopefully I'll see you on Saturday for a natter
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BritAnnie
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Sorry, Sue - not hijacking just answering Claire. I've decided not to come down to HPR after all - it's 4.5 hours drive either end, and I still have laods of packing to do apart from the £50 petrol cost, but I'll PM you when I get down. Do you know of any pbedience traing classes near Clack or where I'd get that info? Answer me on Allez's traininfg Diary - just going to post on there now.
Annie
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cressy
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No problem Annie .
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cressy
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Little one has worked so hard today!!
He started doing off lead heelwork all over the estate by the side of pheasant pens and down various rides. It takes a lot of concentration from both of us but by 20 mins in he was really minding his manners and surprising me. His sit to whistle was sluggish but apart from 'being disappointed' I was so chuffed with the heelwork that I wasn't too insistent in case the other fell apart .
We then did some retrieves in very gamey areas, none were too difficult as I wanted him to remain focussed on the dummy rather than getting sidetracked as this was our first time working in the midst of the game areas. He did really nicely and seemed to want to work with me.
Final part of the morning session was hunting in woodland, I wanted this to be more about minding his manners with me so he could hunt freely if he was remaining in my line of sight but as he pulled too far I insisted in him coming back in. He had a whale of a time as there was loads of scent but no game (I didn't really want him to find any as the object was to remain control when he was getting more aroused). Initially his recall was, shall we say inventive - he knew he had to come back but he was taking the most circuitous route he could while not actually disobeying . I asked for a few hundred metres of heelwork before starting again and he did manage to remember recall should be fast and direct.
After lunch he came out again for some more retrieves. He did well on seekback and seen but we encountered a problem with memories.
I knew and he knew I knew that he knew where the dummy was but for some reason I could not get the swine to fetch it. As I wasn't sure what to do I went to get the dummy myself, he ran and got it before me and brought it nicely to hand. I had no idea how to handle him, he brought the dummy beautifully and I didn't want to chastise him for bringing it back in the one sense but he was taking the pee. I decided to put him away. So any ideas as to how I can manage him if he does it again would be welcome.
Final session of training was jumping, I don't jump dogs young but he is now 13 mths plus so he had a low jump to negociate, first without a dummy was sooooo easy, next he was doing it with puppy dummy and it was still a breeze so finally he was doing it with a full size dummy thrown by a third party (and not his dummy) and he did great. Then he went loopy as this was obviously an arousing game. So back away he went and he is shattered .
A really good day for both of us.
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Greyghost
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You know, I know, you knew he knew you knew where the dummy was but you know what if I was a know it all I would have an answer for you.
The boy done good
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johnhod
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The only suggestion I'd have would involve you having someone along with you during the session. Have them hide close to the dummy and if he doesn't go to it until you start to move have them grab the dummy before he can get to it (either that or invest in a pair of jet propelled roller boots).
I'm sure someone else will have a sensible solution for you.
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guy
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Cannot do wrong for praising him bring it to hand IMHO. It's the 'blinking' that is the problem.
I would have tried setting up another a little while later and been ready to 'get on his case' as soon as he indicated he was ignoring it and about to do something else.
I am beginning to think about a new theory of dog training (well new to me) - WIFM. (What's in it for me) But in this context - as in what is in it for the dog, and if not enough it is not surprising it does something else. If his 'wifm' is not being put in the car but being allowed more hunting i believe he would think twice about doing his own thing.
The concept so far is KIS WIFM (keep it simple, whats in it for me ) I suppose one could add NIMBY - get out on new ground don't always use the convenient piece
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cressy
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Thanks peeps.
I guess I wasn't clear in as much as I couldn't get the tyke to move from his sit. Previously I have fallen into the trap of 'helping' him by starting to move towards the dummy so the last few times I have refused to do this. This has meant I have had some 'silliness' but usually we get there, this time he took my initial sit command too literally .
John, as this is during my training time when I do have a helper if needed I will certainly set up to use one of them next time I try this exercise in that environment.
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cressy
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Today we were training between some hefty thunderstorms and as we had two young dogs who are competing on Sunday to deal with Chase had an abbreviated session today.
As he seems to either lose confidence or get lazy when he can't see the dummy I had help.
My plan was long seen retrieves thrown by another person, the first two were lobbed onto a grass ride and he was so keen he was almost anticipating. I was less bothered about that than the fact he was marking well short. This just proves to me how difficult I find dummy throwing with nerve damage in my arm and being a girl . He dithered a bit when 10m short but he did extend his run out without interference from me.
The next retrieve was lobbed onto the edge of the ride so still almost visible but less clear and getting close to game. Again he was a little short but he ran out and collected it well.
The final three were lobbed into a mix of cover off the ride and definitely into game territory. He worked his way along the edge after still marking short and then was out of my view, my friend had clear vision and said he was so concentrated on finding the dummy, she raised her arm when he had it so I could pip him in at the right time.
She is going to continue helping me with extending his marking and keeping an eye on him when he is out of my eyeline so I can react if he goes self-employed.
Annie also was inspired yesterday, Mugi is struggling to carry dummies now, a combination of too few teeth and occasional pain from the ones he still has. At the same time he enjoys retrieving and I can't keep him retrieving partridge all the time as I just don't have enough in the freezer. Anyways, Annie found some neoprene aqua dummies and reminded me I have one, she is kindly getting me more so today I found the dummy from the garage and tried Mugi on it. He had a ball, he was having so much fun again as the softer and lighter dummy was so much easier for him to handle. I just need to alter the throwing cord as he trapped a paw in the loop when running back and hobbled himself.
After getting drowned with the two cockers I called it a day but we had a very good session with both useful lessons learned and a plan to extend his marking.
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BritAnnie
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I'm very pleased I found these - I was just browsing on Ebay and up tehy popped! So I bought two for Allez and one each for Chase and the Mooj. Sorry to ehar he has tooth problems - maybe we need to change his name to Moothy instead of Mugi. Did we ever hear what his name means by the way?
Should get the dummies early next week, will post on provided they arrive before Wednesday(Moving day), otherwise will have to wait till they arrive on the redirection notice. Al had his harness on today and is hunting much better on a line now - even managed to stop him chasing the crows, so thank you for the present Freddy.
Annie
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cressy
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What a good day - hot so only fun training today.
I decided to do control in the woods starting with a sit before hunting
Sit to whistle
Then another control sit in the pheasant pen - plenty of scent but no birds obviously about
Followed by some good hunting through the bluebell woods staying in good range to me
and finally some water retrieves to cool down
All the water retrieves coming back to hand as well .
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Greyghost
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Doesn't he look all growed up Sue He's coming along nicely 
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Helen S
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Cor Sue you are really doing wonders with that little chap.
Helen S
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Lisa
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Wow Sue! You are doing so well with him!! You're beginning to put me to shame with all your training I seriously got to get more training in with Blu!!
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cressy
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I thought I would update where we are at .
Chase has today been for his first training since I went into hospital, I was expecting little as he has become stir-crazy. I also can't really use a whistle or my voice much so it could have been interesting .
We started off with off-lead heelwork up to a pheasant pen that has just been enlarged and is being got ready for birds. It gave me somewhere I couldn't lose him while having plenty of scope for him to run. Well when I released him run he did - but never far from me and he was frequently checking in. He hunted well on oldish scent and I was pleased. We exited the pen at the far side and I walked him by my side (as opposed to heel) back towards the car. At one point he detoured onto some scent (deer) but he recalled quickly and tidily.
From the car I got out his dummy and he did two nice simple seen retrieves with tidy delivery to the front. By now it was time for a drink.
My friend then joined me and we planned to work her spaniels for a time as Chase had had an hours work. We were thwarted though by the keeper asking us for some help, he had a muntjac in a pen and he wanted us to use the dogs to drive it out. I was a little uncertain but the worst that could happen was he would chase so heart in mouth we went. I needn't have worried, he hunted his ground well and better still he worked with the other dogs 4 spaniels and 4 labs without messing about, he also knew how to behave around the 2 dominant male labs, he sat quietly by my side and didn't make eye contact. We didn't find the deer but it was a useful session.
We went back to retrieving with the spaniels and then my friend threw 3 retrieves for Chase which he did well.
Final fun was Chase and the two spaniels in the lake, they had a whale of a time with Chase flinging himself in and bringing back his dummies well.
All in all a really good session, I think he was glad to be challenged and out there working hard.
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Helen S
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Sounds like you had fun after both of your recent confinements.
Hope you're feeling better soon Sue.
Helen S
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kiwi
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very cool, luv the pic's...........all you others need to start taking more pic's of your dogs.....looks sunny and warm too cressy.
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