DesO'Neile
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Clicker FT ChCalling Clicker Trainers.
Is there a gundog living that has become a Field Trial Champion in any breed, that was exclusively Clicker Trained?
big_mike split this topic as it was well off topic.
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josie
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Not to my knowledge, but then it's a bit of a vicious circle, because until there is, competitive gundog people won't want to try it, and if they don't try it, there never will be one. So, give it time.
I also think it's worth discussing what exactly "exclusively clicker trained" means, of any dog, not just of FTChs. For eg, I'd say that 95% of what I do with Slate is pure clicker training. However, there is still that 5%....
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Mike
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Des,
I doubt it. As the people who are likely to teach solely using a clicker are likely to be teaching that way for idealogical rather than practical reasons it follows that most people attracted to clicker training are unlikely to be attracted to field sports (which by definition usually require the death or suffering of another animal). I use a clicker for training but couldn't describe myself as 100% because I have used corrections (but I am fairly sure that is more a limitation of my ability rather than a fundamental flaw in the tool).
I believe that Philippa Williams has been succesful with her retrievers and they are clicker trained but I don't think it's 100% though and I am not 100% sure to what level (Jo has done one of her courses so I am sure she can respond better)
In the US there are some field titled dogs that are supposed to be 100% clicker trained.
Don't know if that helps at all?
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Allyson
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Hmm, not sure I would agree with you Mike. I don't personally find a conflict between clicker training and field sports............
If you are going to shoot an animal to eat it, I have no problem with that at all.
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Helen
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| big_mike wrote: | | idealogical rather than practical reasons it follows that most people attracted to clicker training are unlikely to be attracted to field sports (which by definition usually require the death or suffering of another animal). |
I don't agree with this. It is probably true that there are no clicker trained gundogs around, or not many anyway but that statement makes it sound like we are all bunch of raving lunatics, just hungry for the kill, rather than the pheasant casserole.
Helen[/quote]
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DesO'Neile
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I don't see why this was off topic. It was asked as a response to the "Debunking Dominance Theory " thread. This is the Working HPR Forum and I just wondered how relevent Clicker training is to Working HPRs? As with everything else man made, Filed Trials are flawed and could always be improved upon but they do offer an element of uniformity when it comes to accessing a dog's working ability. Theories like " Dominance Theory " have helped form the training regimes that are widely used today and to great effect by some people and I promise you that if the majority of trainers thought that clicker training would make the training process shorter or produce a better dog then they would embrace the idea. I just wanted to put Clicker training in perspective. There are thousands of dogs trained to compete in Field Trials worldwide and yet nobody can state categorically that one has made the grade, that grade being F.T.Ch. That is the contemporary situation. I wouldn't like another generation of dog trainers to get less than a balanced view.
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josie
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For me, clicker training is central to training my HPR, and probably the clicker retrieve alone is the single most important bit of training I've been shown by any trainer to date.
I think a lot of people need to get over this hang up about "clicker training". I mean it's just a box you click. Traditional gundog training uses retrieves as rewards all the time - did the dog sit quickly to whistle? Yes - so send for retrieve as a reward. Did the dog do a great retrieve? Yes - so throw a "happy bumper/dummy" and so on.
What's the difference between this and clicking a damn clicker before you throw the happy dummy as reward? Or clicking the sit before you let the dog get the retrieve?? All you're doing is making a click noise when the dog does the right thing, before you continue to do what the vast majority of traditional gundog trainers do anyway - reward with a retrieve.
Obviously there are differences because some dogs are not rewarded by retrieves, and because "traditional" gundog trainers use an element of punishment too, but I don't think anyone would deny that most traditional gundog (lab) trainers in the UK largely train using retrieves as rewards and denying retrieves as punishment. This is positive reinforcement and as such is totally no different to clicker training, except they are not making a little click noise first!!!
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Mike
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| Quote: | | I don't see why this was off topic. It was asked as a response to the "Debunking Dominance Theory " thread. |
Sorry Des, I was just scouting around tidying up and didn't see any connection between what you had asked and the thread title and your question made no reference to debunking dominance either so I moved it. I am sorry if that has annoyed you, certainly wasn't my intention.
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DesO'Neile
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Sometimes my links may seem obscure so apology accepted......though it wasn't really necessary.
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Pippa
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clicker FTCH | Quote: | | because until there is, competitive gundog people won't want to try it, and if they don't try it, there never will be one. So, give it time |
I think in time that there may be a clicker trained FT ch. There is an SH in the states. A poodle clicker trained, I can’t remember the trainer’s name but Jim Barry on Eric’s forum would tell you.
SH is a pretty tough qualification - a dog has to have passed five fairly stiff hunt tests to get the title.
I think it will happen because it is a challenge and people love challenges
I do not agree with the claim that “ the only reason no-one has succeeded because competitive gundog people won’t try” I know several serious gundog trainers, including two FT judges who have given it some serious time and effort. Gundog trainers are not fools and are only too happy to take on board any new method which offers them a competitive advantage. I have found establishing basic behaviours with a clicker to be extremely satisfying and relatively quick, but proofing them against distractions rather more time consuming than mainstream modern gundog training which mixes predominantly positive reinforcement with the occasional correction.
I think the reason there have been no FT CHs totally clicker trained to date is because the method does not give them any competitive advantage, and because current modern gundog training methods are already both humane and effective.
Pippa
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