| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| swainsons |
Comparing different HPR BreedsHi All,Is it fair to compare the different HPR breeds with one another, is it fair to run a Spinone (for instance) against a GSP in the same trial with the same rules. In the case of GSP's, I know that they have been bred to track game whereas a Brittany (for instance) would have no clue how to do that. From the above, does it make sense to have different training methods for the different HPR breeds? I find this fascinating and would appreciate any comments. Regards, Leon Besaans |
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| Allyson |
I think I am right in saying that on the Continent not all HPRs are grouped together for competition as they are in the UK because of some inherent differences in the way they naturally work.
Certainly Weimaraners for example have traditionally not fared well in comparison to GSPs as the former were bred primarily as tracking dogs and the latter are naturally more prone to air scent (hence one of the reasons that Weims have been used far more in tracking competitions here in the UK). Weims appear to have a different style to that of GSPs in my limited experience. As I do not compete in field work myself I will leave it to others to respond to your particular question whether or not it is fair to compare, from MPoV I suppose if you have a specific style in mind then one or another is going to generally not meet that criteria. However I would probably take issue with you on the tracking statement, ALL dogs can track, we do not have to teach them to do it (we have to train them which is a different thing altogether) but whether or not a Brittany would track game or not would, I think, depend on whether or not it thought it worthwhile and had learned from experience, if that makes sense. A GSP would not be my first choice of HPR if I was specifically looking for a dog to track game however!  It would be a Weim, followed by a GWP..................
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| Marjolein |
In Holland, we do have three different field trial groups. The first group is for pointers and setters, the true specialists. This is called Quête à la Française. The dogs are supposed to hunt +/- 200 mtr to the left and 200 mtr to the right of the handler. All they do on trials is hunt, point and be steady to shot. These dogs don't retrieve.
The second group is what we call continental I. This group consists of the dogs that do not hunt as wide as setters and pointers, but run wider than the reach of the gun. These dogs hunt 80 mtr/80 mtr. This group consists of the GSP, GWP, GLP, Epagneul Breton (this dog can be capable of running quête style and range as well), Griffon Korthals, W Vizsla, SH Vizsla, Cesky Fousek and Poodlepointer. The last group is called Continental II. This is for dogs that hunt within the range of the gun. Some judges like it when they cover more field, others punish you for that, b/c according to the breed standards this is not what they're supposed to do. You'll find both the SH and LH Weimaraner in this group, the Drentsch Partridge dog, Large and Small Münsterlander, Bracco Italiane, Spinone, Epagneul Français and all other HPR's that aren't mentioned in the other groups. I think this system is a good system. It actually looks at the origine of the breed and it's standard. Although we always want to be better, run wider and faster, it shouldn't be the intention to breed grey Pointers with amber coloured eyes for example. So to answer your question, I do not think it's fair to compare a Spinone to a GSP. I do think it's fine though to let them work in the same trial, as long as the judge looks at the original hunting abilities of the dog. I have no idea if there is a difference in the way you train different HPR's, I've only had Weimaraners. What I do know though, is that all dogs from the CI and CII group are versatile dogs. They can do everything, but are no specialists. |
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| Helen |
Our pointers and setters are not expected to retrieve here either.
I think that if we didn't run say a spinone with a gsp, in a trial in this country, we would struggle to find any trials to compete in. I don't think there are enough people competing with their dogs for say a glp to run in a trial on it's own. Helen |
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| guy |
Yes i think it is fair - A trial designed and run by a Spinone Club is for the benefit of a Spinone. Should a Brittany choose to run in that test then it must be judged as a Spinone not as a Brittany.
Why would you wish to do this? Each breed was surely developed to suit the needs of a particular region and it's style of hunting. One does not compare 'driven shooting' with 'rough shooting' with a view to saying one is better than the other. They both have their followers. They both achieve the same end - dead game. So it is with HPRs - the same but different - long may it stay so. |
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| lazerbeam |
As regards tracking,
All dogs have an inherent ablity to track, in the sense of following a scent to locate a quarry. The animal that approaches at right angles to spoor laid by a quarry, will not only have the ability to locate the scent, but also to identify the direction in which the quarry was going. If this were not so the animal would not survive long in the wild as it would go hungry and die!! Having trained tracking dogs for the services for many years it is my experience that in starting a dog to track it is important that the animal is taught to be "track sure". That is to say that it should follow the spoor as close as possible to the source. IE in the case of a following a person the animal should track footstep to footstep. It is then more likely to be accurate and less likely to lose the track. |
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| MC |
I think you could run them in the same trial if the judgeunderstood the breed differences. By this I mean the differences in speed and somewhat in the manner of hunting, but certainly the desire to find the game, persistance, retrieving incl following a track, and ability to point should be in all of them.
Maybe it's best to test them against a set standard than against each other. |
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| lazerbeam |
I think that the judge should be capable of appreciating the different breed charecteristics enabling the breeds to compete against each other.
After all in working trials any and all breeds, mongrels included, compete against each other. I have seen a Pallilon competeing in a utility dog stake and the only consideration given is that below a certain wither height the animals compete in a proportionatly reduced agility section. The handlers are aware of the requirements before competing and it gives everyone the opportunity of seeing the different breeds working. It would be logistically impossible to produce specific trials for individual breeds. Who would be prepared to to judge a stake with only a couple of dogs in it? Long may I be able to compete against and have to opportunity ti observe the other HPR's |
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| Sally |
I agree that we do not want GWT for just one breed but it would be good to see judges taking the hunting style of each breed into consideration and giving them a score that reflects how well they hunted in relation to the breed standard. I have heard a number of judges at the start of the hunting test announce that they are looking for 'whizzy, stylish hunting' and I know that we won't do very well 'cos in general Weims aren't 'whizzy' hunters but tend to hunt more methodically. They have long backs so their shape is different from a GSP or Viz and this does influence their style of hunting. Although it is interesting that some of the Swedish working Weims have slightly shorter backs and are more GSP like in hunting style - may be that is more suited to the open moors in Scandinavia than the wooded grounds of southern England. | ||||
| lazerbeam |
Sally
I understand what you mean but in reality we all have opinions as to what we prefer. Having been a KC WT judge for many years I hope I can appreciate the merits of all the different breeds, This is an old cherry about what judges individually prefer but the answer is that when you submit your dog for the scrutiny of a judge, be it in whatever discipline, you are merely asking for his opinion. If you don't agree with the judges opinion the answer is not to submit your dog under that judge again. This will enevitably reflect in entries under that particular judge and subsequently in a societys reluctance to invite them again. |
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| Allyson |
I don't know about field trials but in Working Trials my view is that there is a specific set of criteria that a dog has to meet to qualify.
Each dog has its own individual style and outlook and a good judge will ask himself, "has this dog completed the exercise as per the rule book", if it has, personal preference should be neither here nor there. For example, there are no marks for speed on the sendaway, fast outruns look flashy however flash is as flash does and speed can be detrimental in some cases. Personally I would prefer that the marks for "style and control" were removed from the search square as many judges, especially those who have only ever worked one breed, expect a particular "style" and will mark down dogs even if they retrieve all the articles with no mouthing or dropping, do not go out of the square etc etc. As they only see this dog for 5 minutes, have no idea about what the breed's natural style is or, for that matter the individual, I find that this section of marks can be badly abused by some........ Just my personal opinion. |
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| munstyman |
Interesting thread
In my experience we, in this country have a good range of KC Panel and non Panel judges coming from a variety of breeds, most of which have a passion for HPR dog work, and they have a good grounding of the various hunting styles attributed to each breed. The format of the test and/or trial firstly judges the dog against the ground type and beat required. The dog ( and Handler) must make best use of the ground and scenting conditions to stand the best chance of encountering game for the guns. The dog must also travel at the appropriate pace for the ground type and beat. It is probably this last point that some handlers feel unfairly treats there individual breed, and gives some credence to chosing specific grounds on which to enter a trial or test. There will always be judges old and new who are blinkered by there own breed experience, but believe me they are far fewer than when I started  Besides because we expect our dogs to do so much to a high standard, add in the vagaries of ground conditions and weather on the day, the presence or absence of game on your beat, multiply that by two (runs on a trial) and you soon begin to realise that breed blinkered judges are limiting their options.
To end my little contribution I'll quote from the relevent KC FT regulations J(B) 8.(5) regarding Style. " Judges should recognise that each breed within the Hunt, Point and Retrieve Sub Group has its own individual style, and they should aquaint themselves with these differences." Personally I love to watch all the different breed styles when hunting, and would hate to see seperate breed specific trials and tests, after all I have learnt so much from them in the past. 
Peter |
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| Barry & Chris Hill |
This is a really interesting thread, and as a new addition to the forum, I would like to throw in my thoughts as a competitor and Judge of New Zealand gundog trials.
I am approved to judge all retrieving classes,spaniels and pointer & setters. HPR breeds of dogs are incorporated into the Pointer and Setter class.They ARE ALSO eligible to compete in our All Breeds classification of trials. The All Breeds trial is made up of a two bird marked retrieve over water and a range, find,flush and retrieve over land - a total of five birds. The Pointer and Setter class in New Zealand has a rich history of many HPR dogs achieving success at the highest level,including National titles,dual champion and grand champion titles. When you are judging, you must judge each run according to the rules of the competition - not the BREED of the dog running. I get very little criticism about my judging style. Those who criticise judges,are generally unable to train their dog to the rules and standard of the event. So for those who make excuses for their dogs based upon its breed,should look closely at their training methods. It is the dogs ability to be trained and the persons ability to train the dog, that will win field trials. This is my opinion,anyway Barry |
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| josie |
Barry - can I ask - what are the rules, for the tests you judge, concerning ground coverage?
Also - do you think, then, that there are no breed differences between ground coverage? |
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| Barry & Chris Hill |
Hi Josie
The rules here in NZ are really quite basic. Dogs are expected to range all the ground available, according to the cover and the direction of the wind. I expect the dog to work the face of the wind at all times,and will not penalize a dog that slows its pace down when hunting denser ground cover.nor will I penalize a dog that runs freely in open cover, providing it stays in contact with the handler and does not pull ahead into a head wind. My pet hate is a dog that shows little interest in ranging out and potters about hunting make believe scents. Yes, there are differences in breed styles for ground coverage, BUT provided the dog works all the ground available and does not miss game different breed styles should have very little bearing in the final result. Some questions for you Josie Do run your dogs at championship level? Have you made a dog up to Field Trial champion? Do you judge field trials at championship level? Barry |
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| lagopuslagopus |
Re: differences between hpr breedsBarry
This is how it should be in an ideal world, but unfortunately in some cases it still is not. Edited by big_mike to put in the quote |
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| josie |
Do run your dogs at championship level?
Have you made a dog up to Field Trial champion? Do you judge field trials at championship level? As far as I know, the UK no longer has a HPR championship. Rumour has it the championship was discontinued due to poor standards, but I've no idea if that's true or if it's just rumour. (Anyone know?) I think Mike asked a question on another thread about whether or not the championship is going to be restarted, but I don't think he got any answers to his question. |
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| MC |
NZ pointer & setter field trials were not developed for HPR breeds and the formula has not changed.
In NZ we have an all breeds trial where the dogs are judged on ground coverage of a spaniel trial. I would imagine that in an HPR field trial the judges would have to acknowledge the vast differences in some of the HPR breeds and their inherent working style. It is incorrect to expect breeds that differ so much in working style and speed, for instance Spinone to GSP, to be judged as though they are one breed. Nevetheless, hunting is hunting and all the basics that are expected in our HPR's should be shown by any breed. |
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| chiendog |
Well said! I believe that when it comes to pure field work for birds, there is far too much made of the supposedly major differences in breeds's styles....usually by those trying to make excuses for a lacklustre preformance. Sure, a Bracco is supposed to trot while most others gallop, sure we can expect a GSP to range a bit more than say a Munsterlander, but the bottom line is that they should all hunt HARD. Think of football. Of course there may be differences in the way a midfielder runs compared to a striker but both are supreme athletes that should make anyone of us look like we are standing still! Both should play with extreme drive and passion. And both should be judged by their drive, passsion and ability to contribute to the game. I Just came across this thread and was reminded that I wrote something on this very topic on my blog a while ago... You can read it at http://chiendog.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_chiendog_archive.html |
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| munstyman |
Oh I just couldn't let that go 
It was put to me many years ago, that I would never do well in Field Trials because I had a `slow, plodding Munsterlander' and was always up against `fast, flowing head held high GSP's and GWP, and that those that were judging were from the ranks of the GSP and GWP fraternity. Experience showed that at the time this was probably correct, certainly the LM's at the time were indeed a little lack lustre in their ground treatment. Instead of changing breeds I decided to change attitudes, to this end I trained my Munsty to range wide and fast, she was a hard hunter with a great nose and plenty of game sense, so increasing pace did not mean she would miss game ( something that at the time could not be said for some of the GSP's) . The added advantage was that with a Munsty the dog had a better work rate and was more thorough when in cover and disturbed less game, so on trial grounds that included such cover for part of the day, we often gained places regardless of the judges as other dogs put themselves out. HPR's are indeed `Versatiles', the breeds do have different styles and natural abilities, but good training and an understanding of what will be required in your goals for the end result, can effect the way you get your dog to work and perform regardless of breed, just remember the old adage `Horses for Courses'.
Peter |
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| Liz |
Many years ago the HPR Club of Scotland held a "demonstration day" whith various HPR breeds - can't remember exactly which ones, but I'm pretty sure it included Wei, GSP, Munsterlander, Vizsla and Brittany. It was fascinating to see the differences in the way the breeds worked. I particularly remember it as it was the day I lost my heart to the Brittany seeing the way she worked the tussocky ground.
As Munstyman says, it is a case of "horses for courses" as the breeds were developed to suit different terrain and different game. Liz |
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| Mike |
How did you do this???? |
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| chiendog |
I agree with this statement. But only to a point. We need to be very careful about just how much we make of these differences when it comes to judging the natural working ability in a dog presented at a test or trial. My contention is that the differences are not as great as one would think. I say this based on the fact that I have seen all but two of the various continental breeds in their native countries working the very terrain and game for which they were developed. While the terrain may range from dry and hilly to flat and marshy and the game may range from rabbit to pheasant to boar, I have seen much more in common among all the HPR's than I have seen differences. The good ones: 1. Hunt with extreme desire and drive. No matter the colour, size, coat, name or any other obvious difference in the breed put before a judge, there should be no question but that the dog is there to find game. Period. 2. Hunt at speed. Whether questing in a field or forest or water, the dog is NOT out for a stroll. From the fastest breeds to the slowest, the good dogs among them do not dally. They move quickly. I have seen Bracco's (in Italy) at a full trot that move about as fast as a Brittany (in Brittany) does at a gallop. Both covered about the same amount of ground. Both found and pointed birds. Both were steady. Both were excellent dogs and should be judged as such. 3. Point. Tail down, up, level does not matter (except in North America where some organisations see it as important for some strange reason), head up, down, level it does not really matter. Does the dog find and point game? Is it steady? 4. Retrieve, from land and water. Here is one area where we may find more significant differences among breeds. Many of the breeds from southern France, Italy and Spain where it is quite dry are not necessarily tested for love of water. They may or may not have a natural affinity for fetching out of water. This can of course be overcome with proper training. So any dog put in front of a judge where the test or trial requires fetching from water, better get in and get the job done...no "breed difference" excuses accepted. If water work is not in the description of the breed, then it should not enter trials or tests where that type of work is required. (interesting to note that in 2005 the national BICP winner in France was a Braque St. Germain. A breed not noted for its water work. The BICP is a hunting test that requires a fairly high level of water work). 5. Tracking. See above. Same thing. There may be differences in the priorities of breeders but at the end of the day, if a dog is to be judged on its tracking ability, it is too late to claim "breed difference" when the trial is under way (another side note: I hunt with a Weimaraner and an Pont Audemer Spaniel. The Weimaraner has a lower head and is a very good tracker. The Pont Audemer Spaniel has a very high head ...and is a very good tracker. They have different styles but by golly, when a wing tipped rouster is on the ground they both better get their noses on that track and find the bird. No excuses.) To repeat. I understand very well that there are differences in working style among the breeds. As I mentioned, I have seen almost every one of them working the terrain and game for which they have been bred (a great highlight was watching a Drent Partridge Dog actually work partridges in the province of Drent! very cool, and sadly, something of the past. One can no longer hunt partridges in Holland). These differences though are in style and are in many ways quite superficial. All the HPR's share the same essential qualities of desire, athletisism, Hunt Point and Retrieve. And it is those qualities that should be judged above all else. |
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| munstyman |
Totally agree with you chiendog,
But I think the topic in the thread revolves around the perception that some dogs being judged in the UK were being judged by people without understanding the various styles the breeds work. In the past I have indicated that this was commonly the case, but as more of the various breeds have come to the UK, and are seen working, so has the knowledge of the various style differences. It is my opinion however,that this historic judging perception, is used by some in the present day, to justify their dogs poor hunting performance and/or as you put it lack of drive and desire
My quoting of `Horses for courses' was simply to illustrate that whilst the versatility abounds with in our group of gundogs, and they can adapt with the right training and experience to the whole range of country pursuits, we perhaps should choose the breed which best matches our expected work  (  Hence (Apologies for cross threading) I can not understand why you would want to a HPR to do retriever style Trials.....GET A RETRIEVER  )
Mike, to answer your bit, I ran alot , congratulations on your first Field Trial by the way, to fall at the water is no disgrace....unless you are running a Munsty 
Peter |
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| Mike |
If I understand you right YOU are running the pattern right? or are you just getting your dog to run?
Thank you Peter, staying on topic, is this where I am supposed to shrug and say "well he IS a Weimaraner??" 
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| munstyman |
If you say that Mike, don't let your dog hear you, it might put idea's into his head I have a twist on an old saying for Field trials:
You might not get a Munsty to the water but you can't stop it swimming....unless your over confident!!!!
As for getting a munsty to range at pace, its a combination of encouraging confidence, not allowing the dog to plod, and once quartering to an exceptable pattern, moving forward gradually quicker whilst not allowing the dog to shorten its cast. I have noticed a correlation between plodding dogs and plodding handlers irrelevent of breed, try putting a bit of exertion in your walk the next time you walk your dog and watch what happens
( It helps to lessen the impact of over indulgence during the coming weeks as well )
Peter |
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