guy
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Developed unsteadiness to flushWell we have now done five trials. I have learned more than the dog and until yesterday have been happy to say 'handler error' put the dog out. However yesterday we had a piece of ground that was ideal for him, rough wood with light bramble banks. We ran 12, and because the gallery were not able to keep close to the field he was his usual 'wound up self' He found an d pointed a bird in bramble, worked round the clump on command to flush it and when he was able to get in managed to follow its foot scent to find and force it out of the cover. At the flush I blew his stop to no avail as the little treasure decided it was a bird worth trying to catch.
Thinking about it - I have a number of reasons and areas that I feel i need to address - I am sharing this as it is 'my' view on the matter and an outside perspective may have a different view as to reasons and solution. Bear in mind several months ago he sat to flush without any reminder.
A couple of months ago (prior to my first trial ) I introduced him to retrieving runners - his first was a partridge that glided across his horizon at a low angle, anded and legged it towards maize. He had probably a hundred metre run to the bird. His second bird was one that almost hit him before landing at the fence behind us before running strongly. Then out picking up he had a very strong running cock bird, judging by te yelp he got spurred (good thing as he now picks his birds across teh shoulders rather than the stomach).
A few weeks ago we had a couple of days HPR hunting in Germany where he decided he rather liked their method of almost trying to catch the bird as it fell from the sky. I was suffering a severe head cold and in hind sight a chest infection so had neither legs or lungs to sort this out.
Last weekend we did a lot of work on sitting to flush - I had earmarked a good public path through one of the shoots and with the agreement of the keeper worked him there. The couple of daylight workouts I managed to fit in during the week only produced one woodcock - to which he sat. His hunting was good and he was very sharp on the whistle
In Germany he 'took advantage' of my condition to 'slip' his whistle, his ultimate sin being on our return to England and being called out into the garden for his night time 'duties' before bed - he just turned tail and returned into the house. Needless to say not for long. May also be linked to a further bitch in his domain.
Gosh this is nearly as rambly as a WB post.
The dog is nearly three.
I perceive three problems.
1. He is considering a bid for pack dominance. He certainly tried it on in Germany. When out at a trial he can sense that I am not the 'top dog' so pushes for position
2. Picking up runners has reinforced the notion in his head that any bird that does not immediately fly is his to collect. Maybe as it is late in the season all the birds he has found have been carrying shot, and therefore legitimate retrieves ?
3. Sit to whistle - this seems a bit of catch 22 - whilst out on our own he will sit from a run in just a few paces, when working cover - on the blast. When at a trial this goes to pieces, and because we are at a trial the behaviour is reinforced by lack of correction.
Finally because he is a Brittany 99% of our training outings over the past nine months have been 'retrieve retrieve retrieve'
Thanks for any thoughts.
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windem bang
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I'll try to avoid being "rambly" I see one major problem - handler error.
Field trialling and rough shooting or picking up are not the same thing. A field trial standard dog can be used for picking up or rough shooting but not necessarily the other way around.
When working a field trial dog ANYWHERE - it is in a trial the difference is it is in a trial where you CAN correct it.
After ANY flush whether a "wild" flush or a commanded flush, keep the dog at the sit for at least 20 seconds before hunting on. Extend this whenever possible to 2 - 3 minutes. Waiting is good for their souls.
Wait the same lengths of time before sending the dog for a retrieve - or pick it yourself. I often get a cigar out of the tin, unwrap it ,light it and partially smoke it if the situation allows this before sending the dog.
If a runner occurs do not send the dog while the dog can still see it, whether in the air or on the ground. If possible again wait a few seconds after the bird has got into cover before sending the dog.
This is not a good thing while picking up and I find the best thing to do is to have more than one dog. I have the trial hopeful for selected retrieves and an older "past" trialling dog that gets the majority of the retrieves. The other alternative is to get a dog like a lab and send it for most of the retrieves. Keeping your trial hopeful steady and noise free while this is going on can be difficult but if you can manage this it will add greatly to the degree of control you have over your trial dog.
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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If you find out how to sort this one Guy , let me know....Ghill does the same thing out on a shoot. She did not, however, do it on the SGWC last week thus lulling me into a false sense of security  When we have our beaters shoot last weekend in the month no doubt she will do it again.......however she will be in for a shock as she is the only dog there and I may well be the only beater there if she tries it on she will get a clip on her backside as she runs past [that is, of course, if I can move fast enough] What makes it worse is the others ratbags just laugh and enjoy the sight of me jumping up and down and swearing at her  Ghill takes no notice, no doubt Bill will tell you brittanys are like that .
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Not ramble.... are you on the pills again Bill  
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windem bang
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The delights of my medicine bag have been sampled this morning and ANY dog is like that - not just a britt. I rather suspect that both you and Guy allow previously taught standards to slip on "ordinary" shooting days.
That may be fine if what you want is an "ordinary" gundog.......... but it's no bloody use at all if you want a dog capable of winning trials.
I think I put that rather succinctly ! 
SUCCINCT = brief, compact,compendious,concise,condensed,laconic,pithy,summary,terse.
( I used one of those dinosaur relative book thingies for the above.)
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Thing is Bill, when Ghill is on a 'trial' insomuch as a SHWC is a trial...she doesn't do it. It's only on one of our shoots that she takes off  She obviously knows when it's important not to do it Sensible my Britt Not like some men 
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windem bang
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A sensible Britt is a contradiction in terms.
Bill T.
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lagopuslagopus
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What a shame after such a long wait Guy. Were there any awards?
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Mike
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You have my sympathy Guy, I have been working studiously to remove the impression from Harley that every bird is his.... Still not entirely convinced it has worked 
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munstyman
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Hi Guy,
If only our dogs picked up the good habits of others as quickly as they pick up the bad ones ( but they tend to be more fun  )
I can really relate to your problem as I had a similar experience with my first munster during her first working/trialling season. ( Although I'm glad she did not get to see her European cousins in action, I doubt if I would of been able to retrain those habits )
I think you have pin pointed the causes, and all of them pretty accurately, it is a combination of all of them. In my dogs case I went all the way back to basics, taking her off game completely and regaining her `respect' and my authority before working on live game again. With the same problem today I probably wouldn't go back that far in training and just drop the trialling, and continue working on game but with a far more disciplined approach. Bills approach would be far more in keeping to how I would work the dog for the rest of the season, the phrase `make haste slowly' takes on a new meaning here, keeping the dog waiting on points and before retrieving can be very beneficial in the long term.
If you don't smoke you could just unwrap a Murry mint that's been in your pocket a while (from the previous season  )....it takes ages to get the plastic off
Peter
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guy
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I have thought up a training regime. Handler, dog, observer, electric collar.
Put electric collar on handlers neck, every time the dog is allowed to do something wrong and not corrected and every time the dog does something right and is not praised the collar is zapped. That should sharpen up the handlers whistle commands and hand signals and also get him reading the dog a bit quicker.
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langhaar
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I think you should stop flaggelating yourself Guy with a horsehair whip unless you are member of Opus Dei!
The day was a very difficult one for a trial with a lot of the ground under water. There were many restrictions for the guns who couldn't shoot birds over the raging rivers so all were shot very close. It your dog has a tendancy to run in, this was the day for it to happen.
Personally if I'm put out two or more times for the same thing I wouldn't enter another until I've sorted this problem out.
You have a hard hunting breed like my own, they are far more instinctive than others so you have to cope with their unpredictability, this makes you a better trainer long term and the dogs so exciting to own.
I always try to think like a dog as it cannot reason why one day its unrestricted and another it's not. If I want one for trialling I don't take it picking up. Mine ran in last year, it's frustrating so I stopped entering and sorted the problem out. I haven't been put out for this, this year.
How was it cured, by listening to a keeper who has trialled labs. On a training day let everyone know your intentions and if your dog runs in on the shot sprint after it, you are the pack leader and it's your bird. They soon learn to ask before they are allowed the retrieve. This worked for me, I only had to do it the once but it may not work for you.
The Germans don't insist on steadiness they want every bird in the bag.
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sako75
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I can relate to this problem Guy - frustrating as hell !!
I took Bills advice on this one and I have recently made an effort to keep the dog waiting for a good while before sending for the retrieve and also picking birds myself. I still have a way to go as she is not consistently steady to fall of game but I will be doing my upmost to crack this problem as it is THE biggest pet hate of mine.
Best of luck and I hope you get it sorted out.
Barry.
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Helen
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My take...he was probably taking the p*ss in Germany, realised you weren't going to do anything about it and thought why not. I hate sending dogs for runners for the first time as it can go tits up if the steadiness isn't totally there.
Helen
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guy
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Yes Germany I feel he did take the pee. I had the first head and chest thing for three years - if I shouted at him I could not then speak and certainly not swallow for about a quarter of an hour, if I ran after him even a few paces I could hardly breath. It was really odd, in the evening I sat on the sofa at the house and would breath in and then I would hear my intake of breath part of a second later - weird.
I think he saw that and the new dog about (she stayed with us in te day and was kenneled at the breeders at night) as an indication a new leader was due - him! We have resolved that one, he does not even pee in my company without permission.
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DesO'Neile
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Guy,
If I may make a general observation. It is difficult to maintain the level and amount of training if it is regularly interupted by events. Even if you do get out, there is a tendency to sort of loose concentration and to dwell on the problems you had in your last event and to forget about wee things like dropping the dog, calling it in, putting it on the lead and then casting it off again. This simple drill if repeated often enough will revise nearly all your control training even if you don't have the opportunity of a find to reinforce the drop. I had only fifteen minutes of light tonight and this drill is exactly what I did after the dogs in question had had a short blow out.
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guy
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Des, thanks for that advice- it is easy to overlook the simple basics - I have to admit you have spotted exactly what i have done - concentrated on the problems rather than reinforce the core skills that underpin all.
Langhaar - thanks for your encouragement.
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