German Tracking Tests

langhaar · German Tracking Tests

We did three tracking tests, first one was the VGP which includes a 500 meter track either +/- 6 hours old or if the handler desires +/- 12 hours old. We did the 12 hours track.

IMHO the VGP tracking is just to observe the basic tracking abilities of a dog and although difficult enough not a measure of the dogs real abilities.

The second test in Germany is the VSwP 20, which is a track with a length of 1 kilometer. The track is more than 20 hours old before starting and is created by either dripping or stamping 250 cc roe- or deer blood over the length of a kilometer.

Furthermore it contains two 90 degree changes in direction marked by extra blood and likely some hair.

The third test is the VSwP 40, which is the same length as the 20 hours track and contains just as much blood but it is at least 40 hours old before the test starts. It contains three 90 degree changes in direction and eight indicator points that contain a little bit more blood. It’s a good thing if the dog points out the indicators.

When a dog passes the 20 hours VSwP it is indicated with one of the following abbreviations SWI/, SWII/ or SWIII/. Meaning he passed in either first price, second prize or third prize, a indication of the level of the dog.

When a dog passes the 40 hours VSwP it is indicate with one of the following abbreviatioms SW/I, SW/II or SW/III. (note the difference of the position of the slash). Prizes also an indication of the level

When the dog has both it is marked with SWI/I, SWI/II, SWI/III or SWII/I, SWII/II, SWII/III or SWIII/I, SWIII/II, SWIII/III

We passed both in second prize which means SWII/II

Hope this gives some insights.

Ewart

Maybe this link will help as well;

http://www.vomsturmland.com/docs/hodson_article.pdf

Ewart is a DL owner in Holland, thought this may be of interest to those who believe in maintaining a tracking instinct in our breeds, or not as the case may be!

Marjolein

Well done!!! I've a tracking qualification in Holland, ZwF I. This means a first place (with maximum points) in a bloodtracking trial F (500 mtr's and 24 hours old). So I know how difficult it can be.
We're planning on doing a VGP later this year and we want to do the schweissprufungen as well. Can't wait!!!!

(you have to have a hunting licence btw to be able to do these tests (with a Weimaraner) in Germany.)

langhaar

Did you introduce the tracking element at the same time as field work or did you teach field work first before starting tracking Marjolein.

Did you teach the dog to differentiate a training day by putting on the harness and leash for tracking ? How does your dog know the difference ?
Also have you trained only on cows blood for the JVP, HZP and then train for deer scent for the VGP or VSwP

In a schweissprufung are you tested on the same day with schweisshunds? Do they always include verweiserpunkt containing heart and lung pieces on their tracks?

At the end of the track are the dogs allowed to make contact with the carcass?

Thanks Brenda

lagopuslagopus

When we were doing 'ordinary' tracking years ago it was the harness going on (after a while obviously) that told them what they would be doing. The same with the Search & Rescue and the coat they had to wear for that.

Dave A

Police Dogs are the same ,the harness is the trigger as they always wear one when practicing/training and not being daft switch on to it.

Marjolein

Brenda, with this particular dog I started with the fieldwork. Unfortunately he wasn't as good as I'd hoped so made the switch to bloodtracking.

I am convinced that if you have a good FT dog, you shouldn't start with bloodtracking. I think they can differentiate the difference between the two disciplines, but I am also positive that you can never compete at the highest level if you ask all these things of your dog.
It's not impossible, but I haven't seen dogs yet that can compete at their top in more than one discipline.

I haven't done any bloodtracking for the VJP and HZP. When I train for the bloodtracking trials I mainly use freeze dried cow blood. I also use roe or deer blood every now and then, but when they're used to cow blood, roe or deer is easy for them.
Billy for example was only trained on cows blood when he was entered in his first trial. He won it with 100 points and the qual. excellent.

Depending on the trial, it is possible to compete with schweißhunden. So far we've competed in a Vizsla trial, with only Vizsla's and one Weim. In Weimaraner trials with only Weims and in a schweißhunden trial with only one Weim, the rest were specialists. We didn't make it in this trial btw.

Yes, you'll find lung, heart, liver and bone for example during the track.

The dog is allowed to make contact with the roe, but isn't supposed to bite it.

HTH

josie

Mar, what happens at the end of the track, when the dog reaches the find? And what is the reward for the dog, does it just enjoy the tracking itself and find that rewarding? Or does the dog need something at the end, to reward it??

Marjolein

This is different per dog. The dogs get a reward at the end of the track and that's what they do it for. Billy for example is something else. When he reaches the end, he wants to go on. The reward or the roe at the end of the track doesn't do anything for him. So for Billy, the track itself is the reward.

josie

Is the reward a food treat, or is it the actual deer at the end? I'm just asking because the WSRHP club seem to have a tracking element in their open working test, so I probably should have a practice with Slate before attempting it! I know roughly about the working trials method of training tracking but I figured this is different.

Marjolein

Whatever works for your dog. In most cases, this is food.

langhaar

Am going out with a stalker on Sunday to be taught how to lay a blood trail.He will bring me cow/ deer blood, a deer head and hooves to put in the freezer for practise.

He is a member of the Bavarian Mountain Dog committee who have now decided to allow HPR's to enter their tests. I will find out the date of their next one and enter Arthur if all goes well. At last , a venue for those who want to utilise all the skills of our breeds and my thanks to the BMDC committee for being so ininivative.

lagopuslagopus

A chap who was up on the moor with us last season had one of those dogs. He uses it for deer stalking.

munstyman

Langhaar wrote:

langhaar

Thanks for the tips Peter, am looking forward to watching these hounds work.

Marjolein

If you don't have blood available, check out waidwerk sweat scent concentrate: http://www.waidwerk-international.com/products/track/index.html
This is used by many trainers here in Holland. Works wonders and is easy in use.

langhaar

Click to see full size image

munstyman

I like the stick for holding the slots Idea

I bet it worked out cheaper than the shoes:
http://www.waidwerk-international.com/products/track/index.html

I have some of that waidwerk Marieke, and agree its good stuff and means I dont have to keep pestering the local abbatoir, or filling up the deep freeze with suspicious little packages Wink

Peter

langhaar

It was an exceedingly interesting day and thanks to Pete Garaway for his expert tuition His enthusiasm for the Bavarian, it's role in deer management and his commitment to maintaining it's working ethos in the UK was refreshing.
We used a " hot " trail hence the stick but uses shoes for cold trails. Tracking is much more dificult than it looks but it was interesting to see our dogs perform this task with ease. They were inexperienced and so was I but what was evident was their ground scenting abilities are as undiluted as their air.
Their reward for completing the line was a retrieve of the head at the end which they did naturally without prompting, with Bavarians they are allowed to rag the head in training rather than retrieve it. They also speak on command.

We won't do a retrieve again but will keep the head in the cage and make the dog sit by it without touching so with a carcase on their next track they will sit by it.

I have to admit I'm hooked, this is a skill equal to field trialling and I can now understand why our German breeders are anxious we maintain blood tracking skills in our dogs in the UK. There's more to our breeds than pointing birds but I realise I'm in a very small minority here. However for those who have an interest the BM Club will allow HPR's at their tests / training.

josie

Sounds v interesting, thanks for the report. Do the BM club have a website?

munstyman

Langhaar wrote:

lagopuslagopus

Where do they do their training Brenda?

langhaar

Their last one was in Gloucestershire and will be organising another at the end of this month, where I don't know yet. It is the Bavarian Mountain Hound Society of GB. As a new club it is building up a core of dedicated owners who wish to learn the skill of blood tracking. If there are HPR owners who are interested in a demonstration/ tuition just let me know.
I have no hesitation in doing this with our own dogs who have, still are or going to field trial. Teaching tracking does not interfere with bird work.
What you do need is a good dog who has the will to find game and has a good nose whatever discipline is being taught. Here I go preaching again-
Amen!

langhaar

Click to see full size image

Pete's " Shrew "

Lynn

Brenda, as you now have more indepth info on tracking Cool

I'd love to have your comments on the tracking part of our nat apt. The following is the description we give explaining what the tests are about. This is aimed at the innocent Laughing

untrained youngster

TRACKING or NOSE WORK
This is to test your dog’s ability to track and find wounded game.
A scent trail is laid by dragging some dead game (cut open) along the ground or spraying the ground with
diluted blood. Your dog must follow the path of the trail with reasonable accuracy with its head close to the
ground. You may assist and encourage the dog onto the trail initially and correct the dog if it strays but most of the initiative must come from the dog and it must show an ability and interest to track for itself. There is a retrieve at the end of the trail for your dog to find and retrieve if it wants, but this is not part of the test.
Your dog will not pass if it cannot locate the trail, continually loses the trail or shows little interest in tracking.

langhaar

I have passed on your request to Pete Garraway as it's a case of not going to the monkey but the organ grinder.

Did write in the GLP breed notes the LMC was the only Club to support tracking in HPR's and all credit to you.

Lynn

Thank you for the mention. Your breed notes are usually the first I read. However I've hardly had time to open the dog press - its a bit hectic trying to wear the FT sec hat along with the Treasurers Hat as well as the Odds and Sods hat Rolling Eyes

By the way if anyone can volunteer to help steward, dummie throw, take refreshments round , etc etc at Hall Barn I will be eternally greatful Wink

langhaar

Click to download file

United Bloodtrackers Club US has an aptitude test Lynn

langhaar

The BMH Society have now completed a Natural Ability Tracking Test . This has not yet been given final approval by their committee. The aim of this test is to promote tracking instincts in their Bavarians and also HPR breeds. It is hoped a certificate of successfull completion will be awarded but this is not an indication those that pass are " trained " tracking dogs.

A day for this test for HPR's will hopefully be arranged in September.

Their Sschweisshunde Level 1 and 2 Tests are also at their final committee stage.

The British Deer Society and BASC are willing to promote a register of trained dogs who can be called out for deer management and by the police if a deer has been injured following a RTA. Only those dogs who pass a 1000m trail laid 72 hours previously will be accepted as " trained ".

These tests will be based on the JGHV sschweisshunde prufungs

Click to see full size image

This booklet is available from the JGHV.

Drucherei Hesse hassdruck@t-online.de

For those UK owners with VDH registered dogs who are wishing to enter JGHV prufungs a test of 400 m will be included in the BMHS programme.

It is hoped a HPR representative will be approved and co-opted onto their tracking committee.

Any one wishing further information please e-mail
brenda-arany@tiscali.co.uk

wildman

Are you sure you have your facts right?

How much blood do they plan to use on a 1000m track 72hrs old?

This is a ridiculous standard to pursue using 250cl (the ammount of blood loss generally accepted for a Roe Deer to go into shock and a normal volume for blood tracks).
In fact I would go so far to say that there won't be many 'trained' dogs on their register.

What about lose tracking and reporting?
This has much more merit in a practical sense than following a dog in a 10m line. In reality most UK deer are shot (and lost/wounded) in upland commercial forests, predominately Sitka Spruce, where trying to follow your dog in a 10m line is pretty much useless.
Also what happens if the deer is actively mobile and requires aprehension?

There is a world of difference from following artificialy laid tracks and pursuit of the real thing. Whilst training and testing has much to commend it, setting a 1000m/72hr track as a standard is ridiculous and bares little semblance to reality.

langhaar

I'm sure any input to the BMHS would be greatly appreciated.

Their secretary did send me an e-mail asking if your kennel would be interested in contributing both positive and negative opinions of their testing requirements. I would be happy to provide his number if you could e-mail.

wildman

I am sorry if I came over as a little bumptious in my previous post, I have sent a PM.

paintandpins · tracking

Hi all,

I tend not to post on forums but something that I think needs correcting so as not to give a false impression is the information that has been given by Langhaar in relation to the BDS BASC test/register that you mention. The details you give will not be the required standard should a register be formed and the reason that I can stop anyone panicking, (not that there would be anything to panic about if it was 1000 yards 72hrs), is that I have spent the last couple of months writing the guidelines for the actual test that may be used.

A few quickies whilst I’m here

Blood loss should not be seen as only that which leaves via a hole. Many injuries have very little external blood loss and In that respect you are correct, training can bare little resemblance to the real thing, but mostly from the point of view that the blood loss after the initial impact/ flee, will be far less in reality than a training track, and in some cases none at all.

Loose tracking does have its place and the release of the dog when appropriate is good practice, however the use of a tracking lead gives you far more advantages than disadvantages, control, teamwork, accuracy ,safety to name but a few.

Deer can be lost anywhere and much depends on the injury and the circumstances surrounding it however as I was told many years ago by a German handler when posing the question of entering dense cover, you get on your knees if you have to and back your dog up only the lazy make excuses not to. I have done so ever since however tempting avoiding wet pine needles down my pants is at the time. Reporting is a good point to raise though can be difficult and time consuming to get right.
Remember in those very areas you have mentioned, e.g. commercial blocks, it will be very hard to hear/locate a dog speaking when it has free tracked an injured deer for two miles before bringing it to rights. That leaves you with the other two methods which both require the dog to show the handler the find and you will have to enter the blocks anyway as the dog will show you by following its original track. You can’t avoid those pine needles

Don’t get too caught up with times and distances, whilst training for work, what we ask our dogs often bares little resemblance to reality, however the benefits appear when in a live situation we need them the most.

This is why I don’t write on forums I go on for ever, hope I’ve been able to give you all some food for thought.

Mark www.paintandpins.com

wildman

Hi Mark
It is not the pine needles down the pants we are scared of, I am faced with such inconveniences and worse at work every week.
It is simply the fact that you can't follow a dog in a line for any distance through thicket stage Sitka Spruce. The trees are planted at extremely close distance and at the point in the rotation that they close canopy the branches meet each other to the ground.
Now, we do go in there after our dogs when they have reported a definite kill and often come out looking like a chainsaw accident, but following a dog through such cover with a line is not an option.
It is not difficult to train a dog to find, report and return to a dead deer but it does require one thing - training.
GPS satellite tracking also has a lot to commend it providing added insurance and security and getting round the problem of 'hearing' the dog, it is however expensive and perhaps doesn't work so well in extreme closed canopy. Radio telemetry doesn't work well round here with all the undulating ground.
I am all for using a line in training, where the handler determines the terrain and cover encountered. It has much to commend it and is essential in situations where the dog may come in proximity to roads, traffic etc.
But when you really need a dog, and the deer is actively mobile, it is not just the dogs nose you want, you need to exploit the fact that the dog is faster and more agile to bring the deer to book, attributes it can't utilise when attached to a cumbersome human particularly one crawling on his hands and knees with pine needles in his pants.

paintandpins

I cant say I disagree with any of your points,(ok most of them Very Happy

) wildman. Thicket stage is a problem and decision to release can some times be a close run thing on these occasions.
Gps and telemetry are very good backups but as you say they have their downsides and one of them is cost but then what value a lost dog.
I do think you have hit the nail on the head that whatever you require of your dog requires training. There seems to be very much an expectation by some handlers that when you get one of the breeds that are currently in vogue for deer work that it should track and report straight from the box so to speak. Poor training and advice seem to be prevalent at this time and in many cases it is perpetuated by the sporting press and im sorry to say some elements in the sporting organizations.
When you say it is not difficult to train a dog in these tasks I tend to find that people would disagree, however this is down to the conflicting advice and overall lack of experience and handler confidence in this country with deer work.
Handlers have few people to turn to and even on forums I have seen not only bad advice given but shockingly dangerous advice. As with all new areas it will take time but I have to say that I am always glad to see that the interest is there and that people like Pete are persevering in trying to change attitudes and get things right.
I don’t think we will agree on the tracking lead and until the point I release that dog I will always be the lump on the lead, mind you that may be something to do with Mrs Mark being very good at getting pine needles out of all the best nooks and crannies, but that’s another story Embarassed

langhaar

Click to download file

Have forwarded copies of BMHS Aptitude, Test 1 and 2 to interested HPR Clubs and individuals. If there are other enthususiasts please e-mail Pete.

johnhod

I can see the letter but no details of the tests. Is there another document that should have appeared with the letter?

langhaar

Haven't put the tests on but I can forward to you johnhod or any other owners who are interested, brenda-arany@tiscali.co.uk

Brenda

langhaar

Schweisshunde Tests

One of the goals of the BMH Soc. of GB from the very beginning was to establish tracking tests as in Europe, we have worked from the tracking test rules from the continent as a basis; we have had to have the rules translated and proofed to make them workable here in the U.K.

As Secretary I have contacted various non BMH Owners, Breeders, Clubs and Societies regarding the Tracking Tests to establish whether or not Tracking Tests were required for other breeds. The response was all enthusiastic and very positive. Owners of some of the other breeds have been very instrumental and supportive of our goals, to the extent of including information in their relative ‘breed notes’ in the dog press. We, through the assistance of others have also been able to source out Judges; the Judges are experienced judges and are qualified to judge tracking tests on the continent, with one judge actually residing in the U.K. We fully intend, with help, to train and appoint our own judges in the future.

The purposes of the Tracking Tests are ultimately to preserve and encourage the natural abilities that for which our hounds came into being. The Tests will be open to al K.C registered dogs with expectations of HPR’s and BMH’s being most numerous in tests. We have had other breed owners in contact wishing to take part in the Tests, Cesky Terriers, Curly Coated Retrievers and the Bassett Fauve de Bretagne to name a few. The tests are run as a test not a competition, so any amount of dogs can pass or fail on the day.

Please read through the Schweisshunde Tests on the web site.

The Schweisshunde Aptitude Test is very basic, being designed not to overmatch but to give handlers the confidence to hopefully go further.

The Schweisshunde Test Level 1 goes further to test the tracking ability, behaviour at carcass and some basic obedience.

The Schweisshunde Test Level 2 is a further advanced Test being longer and older with reporting and steadiness to shot being tested.

To register an interest in the Schweisshunde Tests please click at the BMHSGB web site and include your name, breed of dog you have, breed Clubs and Societies you are a member of and the county you reside in.

A meeting is intended for interested parties in November.

Pete Garraway Sec BMHSGB

munstyman

Here's the link:

www.bavarianmountainhoundsociety.org.uk/

Not sure if I missed it elsewhere in the thread, but did it the hard way Cool

Peter