GLP & LM

The Croc · GLP & LM

Are these dogs very closely related or are the same dog just with another name and geographic location?

If different what are the differences?

Brian

tashap

German Long Haired Pointer and Large Munsterlander???

Thought they were two seperate breeds, know the munsterlanders are vocal when on game where as the GLP are silent hunters.

Munsti-Sue

I may be wrong Confused

but Large Munsterlanders are descended from German Long Haired Pointers...which is why you get the brown and white Large Munsters.

lagopuslagopus

Very briefly, they started off as the same breed and split when some people decided they only wanted the brown and white ones which became the GLP and the farmers decided to keep the black and white as Large Munsterlanders. Mine are NOT vocal when hunting for game and most of the ones I come across aren't either. Some might be if chasing something! but then so are SOME dogs of many other breeeds including the GLPs!

The brown that you sometimes get in the Large Munsterlander litters is not because they are 'descended from' the GLP but just down to genes from when they were the same breed a long time ago. Black is dominant over brown but if you get two dogs mated that are brown carriers you can get brown in the litter so if you mated a GLP to a Munster which carried brown, you would also get brown as well as black, but if the Munster was black black you wouldn't, but some would be brown carriers.

More information on the Large Munsterlander can be found on the Club website www.largemunsterlanderclub.co.uk

I feel sure that Peter might have something to say on this question when he gets back from the CLA

langhaar

The Deutsch Langhaar was descended from the Spanish Falcon Dog , the Stober or rummage dog and Brackens which were scent hounds. Around the 1700's variations in coat type became selectively bred even though the German Vorstehhunds did not seperate into short, long and wire for another 100 years. Brown was the colour of choice because of it's camouflage appearance.Scottish Setters ( Der Wildhuter Hunde) was bred to the Longhaired Slow Dog , Der Deutsch Langsam. These Setters were not the black Gordons but a variation of different colours. Even working Gordons today still carry a lot of white.
In 1879 it was decided to breed a longhaired Brown dog with great versatility and what was produced was " German Marmalade with a little English Sauce ". No blacks were included from this date. Interstingly enough no black Kurzharrs were allowed in their stud book also.Although the 2 breeds have common ancestry they are not the same and haven't been for a 127 years.

The Croc

Do they hunt the same or differently say like ones like a Lab and the other like a Spaniel, not a good analagy but you can see what I'm trying to say.
Are they calm like Labs or manic like Spaniels or some where in between

Brian

langhaar

All HPR'S have the ability to air and ground scent unlike our English breeds which were bred for either or. The Longhair was a foresters dog and was used for all types of game. It had to be robust to protect it's master. It also lived as a family dog so temperament was an important breeding factor.
As for hunting skills the Germans are true roughshooters and expect their dog to perform on fur, feather and boar. They cannot obtain a hunting license unless their dog has had prufung gradings which includes obedience.
Over here my dogs have never ceased to amaze me with their instinctive skills.
More information is on the website www.arany.co.uk including The Inheritance of Coat Colour in the GLP written by Dr R Simpson BSc Genetics and Zoology.

münstermanager

But, as an aside, Langhaar, weren't LMs bred back to GLPs once, twice or so in the last century? I understood that it was to improve certain hunting skills in the LM (I don't know which). Someone also told me that it was also to improve type as LMs were getting a bit stocky... I assume this must have been of some benefit to GLPs or it wouldn't have happened?

As another aside, I notice that a couple of the German kennels in some GLP lines are the same as those in some LM lines. Do you know if these German kennels have both GLPs and LMs or have they changed from LMs to GLPs? One of the kennels was Chamavia and I think a Chamavia was one of the first, if not the first stud dog, to be imported from Germany so I assume he was black/white! I'm sorry to ask so many questions, but I find all this really interesting. My German is lousy these days but there doesn't seem to be anything on the German sites about this 'breeding back'. I've actually ordered an old German GLP book so I shall be interested to see if it has anything in it if I can understand any of it - I struggle with the German in the LM one these days.
Thanks

Sue

münstermanager · OOPS

got that wrong, the Chamavia dog was a bitch in whelp not the stud dog. Sorry.
Sue

langhaar

In 1970 the Grossen Munsterlander applied to the Langhaar club to use a GLP stud dog to a M bitch to extend their very small gene pool. Infant vom Feuersang was mated to Eibe de Wynen. Six years later Lady de Wynen was mated to DL Tim von Feuersang.
Twenty years later permission was granted to use a DL dog but I don't know to how many bitches.
There are kennels in Germany who breed both DL's and GM's de Wynen , Chamavia and Lonsstein are some .

Adding the recessive brown to black increases the percentage in breeding GM browns which are culled in Germany.
Hope this answers your question Peter.

The Croc

Langhaar
Are you saying that the GLP is bred with "protection" as part of its make up.
Now are they or LMs more laid back, and which is (dog dependent) the easier breed to train, and mature the quickest

Brian

munstyman

Oooh look what I've found Shocked

Langhaar answering a question that I have not asked, well not quite any way Laughing

What I realy want to know is how a dominant coat colour gene of `black' can come out of dogs with a recessive coat gene of brown

( without out crossing to a dog carring the `black ' coat gene). Your answer is correct but that part is basic genetics, as once introduced a brown recessive gene will be carried (not shown) in a numerically larger percentage of offspring.
Hi Croc, To answer your question both dogs are very similar in temperment, developement and hunting styles ( the Dutch varient of the Longhair is more setter like in its hunting IMO). If you can get on with a Munsterlander you will get on with a Longhair, The choice of lines and breeders is of course smaller with the Longhairs, but that is not a bad thing, I know where I would go if I wanted to change breeds....but that would get me into all sorts of trouble...so its just between me and Langhaar Wink

Of course you could always opt for the Kliener Munsterlander, as I happen to know that the initial breeder of `smalls' is moving down to EastDown in N.Devon, don't know when or where exactly, but just thought I would bait the hook again.
Peter

The Croc

Hi Peter
Have a good time at the Game Fair?
Here's a link to a movie of a KM on a retrieve, the guy is an American but he posted this on the UK Wildfowling forum

http://media.putfile.com/Snake-River-Retrieve

Just been reading up on the KM, seems they can be a bit hyper!!! unless I read it the wrong way.
Brian

langhaar

Sorry Peter, thought it was you asking an intelligent queation!
A black dog B can carry an allele for brown b so if two alleles join bb you'll get brown. A longhair owner has written a thesis on colour inheritance in the GLP which refers also to the LM on the website. As for similarities between the two breeds I'll keep my own councel on that one!
Colour inheritance can also affect instincive working traits in a breed.

The GLP is at a crossroad in the UK at this time.

langhaar · LM/GLP

Sorry didn't answer the Croc's question.

If by protection you mean sharpness the answer is no. It was the old Game Wardens Dog and lived as a family member. Like all good hunting dogs it would protect its master if it was say charged by a boar! As much as my Konan would protect me if I was in a difficult situation. What Konan cannot protect me from is having to continually justify his existence in the UK.

münstermanager

Thank you Langhaar. You answered my question brilliantly. Actually, you also started to answer the one (affect of colour) I didn't ask in your last reply to Peter!

I am sad to hear that you are continually having to justify Konan's existence in the UK. I guess you won't say more.... I have been amazed, of late, to hear of the comments made about those who are trying to improve their breeds (all sorts) with 'foreign' dogs...

It's a shame that you are keeping your own counsel about the similarities/differences between the two breeds. I find it very interesting (like the differences between Large & Small Münsters). I shall just have to bump into you again at the vets or something...

One thing though, can GLPs be as vocal @ home as LMs can be? It's just that the vocal reputation of LMs was put to The Croc on another thread and he may find it helpful/interesting to know, perhaps. I think it was with regard to kennelling.

The Croc, I don't know if having a kennel at home is exactly the same as 'going to kennels'.... Both of my LMs have loved going to kennels because they can have a real barkfest. The last one always came home sounding like a sea lion.

Best wishes
Sue

munstyman

Langhaar ,
Der I be abit fick, I don't ask Intelligent questions...just controversial ones Laughing

Most of what you get from the LMC regarding the origins of the LM, all state that the LM developed `from' the German Longhair. however the coat colour geneology means that this can not be so without out crossing the early generations at some point, [b]or[/b] that the developement of the two breeds originally came from both black and brown ancestors (and therefore the same breed origins) splitting later in their history when the Longhairs breed club was formed, excluding blacks from their criteria. This is what I thought the research that you mentioned to me previously was going to determine. i.e. Are LM's Black Longhairs or are they mongrels....say like the dutch Longhairs Shocked

. Not controversial enough Question

Well how about the German Longhairs really being brown Large Munsterlanders Twisted Evil

As I'm on a roll Cool

If as you say there are links with coat colour and working attributes, does that mean our dogs have a better deal than the Weims Question

.....I'll be safe, there won't be any weims owners reading this Rolling Eyes

Croc, I would say all the dogs in our group have a youthful exuberance nothing more, its just up to the trainer to channel their energies into something useful Wink

Afterall you wouldn't want a lethargic dog to fetch that downed duck on the Taw estuary with the tide going out, not with those currents!
Peter

langhaar

What we have to understand is in a breeding system as in Germany everything is done for a reason unlike our English style which is unregulated and based on the knowledge and preferences of an individual breeder. One only has to read good history books on the dog such as Arkwright's Pointer and it's Predessesor to find out why one colour was preffered to another. Most continental hunting dogs are brown and variations of such.
In 1556 printed in the Laws and Ordinances of Navarre was written, The qualities that a good dog should have are nose and speed to excess, obedience and a good colour. To the white and wax coloured dog the partridge as a rule lie mutch better for their is no white animal which resembles a wolf, the fox or the wild cat, of which they are afraid, while the dark coloured dogs are lost to their masters in woody ground and often much time is wasted in seeking for them.
Before netting and the flintlock game birds were killed by the crossbow so a black dog would have more chance of an injury or death because it could not be seen by the archer.
There began a much more intensive breeding preference for this colour. So selection for brown combined with instictive ability has continued for hundreds of years.

munstyman

You are a mindful of knowledge Langhaar,
From these writings it is clear that brown colour was linked to the `old ways' of hunting, and that black was innappropriate for those times. Is it not the case that modern shooting dogs are prefered to have white `Flags' on their tails for the same reasons, and one could now argue that a black and white dog is easier to see in a modern shooting context than, dare I say it, than a brown and white dog Question

So have you not confined the German Longhair to the history books, bred for a time long since past Laughing

......Make way for the Black and white Munsterlander, truley the dog for the future Cool

Peter

josie

Or why not just go grey... Shocked

ps: Weimaraner owners are reading this thread Laughing

langhaar · LM/GLP

Tut tut Peter, the past has always shaped the future.
I have a copy of the LM Club News USA which contains an article on A Breed Warden analyzes height to length issues. It states the LM should have be as high as it is long and up to 2" longer is tolerable. In their recent survey 32% of their stock were too long. In checking with contemparies in Germany they explained the LM was more methodical in it's hunting than other breeds in Germany and a box like appearance could give it more speed and endurance. Still haven't got it quite right eh!!
Perhaps a few more decades might help?

Alkemist

Errrr another Weim owner reading too Laughing

But one with a 'foreign' dog too so can understand EXACTLY what you mean.

BTW I rang the GLP club enquiring about the suitability of a GLP - was told to bog off and buy another handbag - apparently all Weim owners change dogs to get a different coloured fashion accessory (silly moo of a woman). This person also slated German GLPs and told me that if I did 'manage' to get one, at least go for the Dutch ones!!!!

Thanks to that person I now have another Weim, but an imported one.
I also have the offer of a GLP from a nice Dutch lady if ever I want one... happy ending after all.

I also had heard that the 2 breeds were just different versions descended form the same dog, so it's really interesting reading this.

Nina

munstyman

Steady Langhaar,
You are moving far to quickly for me to keep up (must be a Longhaired thing Wink

), I thought we were talking Coat colour, I take my dogs out , come back and weve moved onto size Confused

,
Dogs like boxes going further Question

maybe if you stuck a DHL sticker on it, or even a FED Ex then it will get there the next day guaranteed so I'm told, but I doubt it will find any Game on the way Exclamation

Josie and Alkermist (and others) I thought that this was private and nobody was going to see it Shocked

I'll have to behave myself after all this dog stuff is a really serious business and I might get a reputation Shocked

Alkermist sorry to hear you were treated so badly by the `Club' , but look on the positive side I bet you made Langhaar smile Shocked

Although I would have to say that I think you could take a black handbag to more occasions than a brown or grey one Cool

There you go Karen, I'm a fashion guru as well as an artiste.
Peter

langhaar

There is an old adage " There's no bad colour on a good dog "

Thanks for the stimulating input! Hope you've enjoyed it for what it is, my tongue has been held firmly in my cheek!
Didn't know in the US they have a regulated breeding system for the LM, hat's off to them I say.
On a more serious note I've just talked to some one who want's a GLP bitch pup for future breeding to his GLP cross Korthals Griffin Dog so he can start a line of deer stalking dogs! Now that's a fine example of our English Breeding System.

stubournazza

Well - a very stimulating topic but think I got sort of lost somewhere and will re-read as I thought LM's and GLP's where related after a fashion. Is that the question of the universe and everything

Oh and black is sooo slimming Laughing

But I may be tempted by a GLP after my next LM Shocked

-just so I have a dog to match the outfit and plus I don't know of any other GLP's doing competitive obedience = well not up here anyway Exclamation

The Croc

This Thread is really enthusing me I may have to do some research into a
KM as well.

munstyman

langhaar

Nina, could you e-mail be privately on brenda-arany@tiscali.co.uk please.

Thanks, I'm sorry to see your experience with the GLP was not a pleasant one, these dogs deserve better!

Good boy

Any info on where I can get a GLP from good working stock?
Question

Mike

If you email Brenda (Langhaar) her address is in post above yours). I am sure she can help you.

GLP & LM

OOPS

LM/GLP

LM/GLP