| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Claire |
Grouse Training DayOn Monday I spent the day on Barningham Moor with Andy Cullen of Laochin Gundogs and 8 other handlers. We had 2 weimars, 2 GWPs, 3 GSPs, 1 HWV and 1HV. The dogs were all at different levels as were the handlers and it was interesting to watch each dog work. We all got 4 runs, each lasting 5 minutes. Whistle it was a training day on grouse but we also used it as a count for the keeper. We counted over 100 grouse
The weather was strange as we were all worrying it was going to be too hot but when we got up onto the moor it was quite foggy 
Whistle worked extremely well, better than I expected tbh and Andy actually said to me during her second run, "this is the time when you want people who say weimaraners don't run to be here to see your dog"  On her 3rd run she pointed a covey of 7 or 8 grouse from about 30 - 40yards, they must have moved as she slowly moved forward, then just when she went on point again they got up. Andy was really impressed, he said it was an outstanding piece of dog work and easily the best of the day!! I was gobsmacked at how enthusiastic he was over her He had to explain to me why what she did was so good because I was a bit overwhelmed at his enthusiasm. She also had her first point on rabbit which was a fantastic point and I was really chuft with that.
However, as always I have come away with a few areas to work on. She was unsteady to the grouse getting up and although she didn't run around like an idiot she did run around in a circle a couple of times before finally stopping to the whistle. And when the rabbit got up that she had pointed she buggered off after it  I knew that would happen so I wasn't overly concerned, it just reminded me of what I have to work on.
However, my biggest disappointment of the day was she went to chase a sheep. I am GUTTED to say the least  I have worked bloody hard hard to ensure she doesn't do this and so far she has NEVER EVER chased a sheep. I have worked her amongst sheep both on the moors and in the lowlands with absolutely no concern from me and no problem at all. Infact, before everyone arrived I was walking her on the moor, on the lead and she was looking her usual warey self when glancing at the sheep. This sheep was on its own, Whistle stopped and looked at it for a few seconds before deciding to chase it. She initially ignored me yelling at her but then when Andy yelled and I blew my whistle she responded and broke away and came back to me. Sadly I couldn't bollock her as she did come back to me but you can imagine I just wanted to ring her bloody neck  She got about 4 strides in before stopping the chase. A little later on I was working her near about 4 sheep and she showed interest in them, but a single yell from me took her vision away from the sheep and she carried on working. I asked Andy if he thought I should put her back in a pen with a sheep again but he didn't think it would make any difference, but personally I disagree with that. It has been suggested that perhaps she was chasing the chase as opposed to the sheep and I had never considered that. Any thoughts anyone?
I have done nothing for the last 2 weeks except work on my stop whistle and I am definitely seeing improvements by solely concentrating on this, I am still struggling a bit to get her to respond quickly when she has her nose on something 
Overall I had the most excellent day. Andy is a fantastic trainer, very patient with the handlers and very kind but firm with the dogs. Barningham Moor is amazing and I have never seen so many grouse. I've taken a few pictures but due to the fog I sadly couldn't take many as they wouldn't turn out. I've attached one below with Whistle in it but for some reason I can't attach others so I'll try again in a new post. 
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| Claire |
Nope, can't post any more, says something about image has expired 
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| BritAnnie |
Put them on photobucket and put the link in here.
Where is Barningham Moor? BA |
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| weima |
North Yorkshire/County Durham border. It is just off the A66 Scotch Corner. It's quite an easy moor as moors go 
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| BenB |
Good result ! Sounds like a fantastic day out. I could really do with a grouse moor!!
Re: the sheep - was this after the rabbit chase? Just thinking that if she got away with it on the rabbit then she might have been thinking she could get away with it again? Teasel chased a sheep once and only once!! I broke every "rule" and gave her a proper bollocking when she came back. I then put her on the lead and dragged her after the sheep and as soon as she looked up she got bollocked again. I was so livid that every bit of training book I had ever read went out the window. I guess different dogs respond differently. I like the way Whistle is hogging the limelight at the front of the pic! |
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| Helen |
Sounds like she did really well.
TBH, I wouldn't worry too much about the sheep. If she was really into chasing, she would have gone without stopping. You worked her later with them and although she looked, she didn't chase. I would just get near some sheep and see what her reaction is. If she is interested, give her a rollocking. You should see more grouse here next year than you did at Ray lol Helen |
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| Mike |
Really pleased you had a good time Claire, I had hoped to be able to make this one (the car was poorly for the last one) but not enough hours in the day unfortunately.
I wouldn't worry about the sheep thing too much, Harley has grown up with sheep and been firmly told what is and isn't acceptable but there where still ocassions when he was really "aroused" when it was dicey but it is pretty much only when they are running and it didn't take much to stop him and now after this spring he has been in situations where he has had 20+ lambs running only meters in front of him and just watched them away. She is listening to you but probably just needs more exposure and sterner bollockings when she gets it wrong, I doubt it will take much to persuade her to be "good" |
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| sako75 |
I enjoyed that post and well done Claire , Whistle is fairly coming on !!
I agree about the sheep , if she was an avid chaser you would not have been able to stop her no matter how loud you yelled. A few more bollockings should get the message across - practice that ROAR girl !!!!
Barry. |
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| Lisa |
Wow Claire, sounds like you had a great time! (except for the sheep!) Like everyone else has said it may not have been the sheep in particular but the rush of the chase?
I have a worry with Blu and sheep but I just need to get near more so he can learn to leave them alone!
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| Claire |
Thanks Guys. I really appreciate everyones thoughts, advice and opinions not to mention support Glad you didn't mind reading through a rather long post, hate writing long posts but sometimes I just have so much to say...... 
Well I spent a good hour and a bit on the phone to Tom last night and as usual he pulled me back into line with my worries and put everything into perspective. Sometimes I think he is my dad A common phrase from him "now listen to me young Claire....."
Anyhoo, the sheep thing he isn't worried about either. He asked if she had pointed the sheep first and funnily enough Andy thought she was going on point but that was because he couldn't see the sheep and I could. I said no, she's eyeing up the sheep, and then she gave a little chase. Tom said this is not unusual even for a dog that has previously been good around sheep. He also said that its important to remember that on a moor she is in 100% hunting mode. He would have taken her back to the spot and chastised her there and then. He doesn't believe in not chastising just because the dog has returned to you. I wish I had chastised her now because I could easily have taken her back to the spot and I at least would have felt that I had dealt with it. Regarding her being unsteady, again he doesn't see this as a huge problem and says he will get her steady within an hour I've told him I'll be holding him to his word He'll use pigeons so I'll let you know how that goes when I next go out. He said its not unusual for young inexperienced dogs to be unsteady on a moor because the dog is usually associating the stop whistle with the sound of gunshot and of course if you are training/counting then there is no gunshot. So you are asking a dog that is in full hunting mode to suddenly stop and sit and this is asking a lot of a young inexperienced dog, but obviously it is achieveable through time and training.
He has been trying to get me to enter the novice grouse trial later this month and I must admit I have been tempted, however she is due in season
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| Mike |
Claire,
If Tom thinks you are ready for the trial, just enter it. You can find all the excuses in the world but you'll never know until you just "do it", if you just take the view that you are there to do the best you can and see what they are about then you won't be disapointed, even if things don't quite pan out. You never know she may be late and if you haven't entered you can't run! I didn't want to do my first trial but got pushed into it by "teacher" and look how that would have turned out if he was a swimmer back then! If I have read your original post correctly you whistled Whistle back from the sheep and she returned. I still think (if that is what happened) that bollocking her then would have been a bad idea, if however you blew her down and she had ignored it then put those running shoes on and even if she returns to you of her own volition she deserves to dragged back to the spot she should have sat (with an appropriate amount of bollocking). I must admit I do hate it when Harley has ignored the whistle and I have to go after him, doesn't take long for hm to realise he is in the shit and come back to me and lie down, doesn't change the fact that he is in for a bollocking (even if I don't like it) on the flip side 100% consistency seems to be paying off (Except with Deer )
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| BenB |
Mike - are you looking to get a new personal best for running the 100 metres in this coming season?!
Coco decided to outrun me the other day - by the time I caught her up and got my breath back she had clearly forgotten wahtever it was she was doing wrong! |
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| Lisa |
I must admit, I have been chasing Blu when he ignores me now! I was fed up with keep repeating him to stop and for him to just wander around ignoring me Like you say Mike, when Blu sees me tearing towards him he knows there is going to be trouble Funnily enough, after the first bollocking he tends to do as he's told for the rest of the session!! It kills me to run after as I'm not the fittest person but it does pay off!!
Clare, just go for it and enter! If Tom has advised you to do so then do it!! You have nothing to loose and you might even be glad you did! You never know until you try!! 
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| Helen |
Go for it Claire! As Mike said, if Tom thinks you are ready, do it!
Re: chasing. I don't chastise when they come back. I get them to walk to heel off lead and do a couple of sits with them. Any sign of not doing it, they get a bollocking. Helen |
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| sako75 |
I don't know Tom but his dogs are renowned for their steadiness. I will be very interested in reading your next post about how he goes about steadying Whistle. In another couple of weeks I will be doing the exact same on pheasant and would love to know how you get on and how he does it in such a short period ? Keep us posted Claire
Barry. |
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| Claire |
You and me both mate! I've told him I am holding him to getting her steady within the hour. He's a great trainer and the good thing about Tom is, even though he knows what he is doing, he still has to change his training methods to suit each of his dogs. He often tells me about how he starts training one way and then has to stop, and do it another way because its not working. He also likes to understand the nitty gritty on things like scent conditions, why a dog is working the way it is, why a dog is pointing the way it is and so on. Anyhoo, here's a linky to my flickr album where I've put the rest of the photos. http://www.flickr.com/photos/38471269@N00/ Edited by Mike, Claire you have a PM explaining why. |
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| Mike |
Claire,
If he steadies her up in an hour, i'll be driving up to see him the week after!!!!! I am 100% serious...
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| josie |
Claire, you must be really pleased, it sounds like Whistle is coming on really well.
Re the chastising thing: If you recall and then she comes back, and you punish, you are punishing the last thing she did. Which, IF you recalled, means that you are punishing the recall. But if you didn't recall but blew the sit whistle (say), and she didn't sit, and then you punish, you are punishing her for not sitting. Which makes more sense in terms of learning theory. When someone punishes or rewards, they are most strongly punishing or rewarding the _last thing the dog just did_. Disclaimer - None of this is advice! Regarding the trial, personally, and this is just my personal opinion, I wouldn't ask a dog to do something in competition which it isn't near to 100% reliable on in training, in a variety of locations. It's just that you can't reward (or punish) in competition if the dog does something right/wrong, and in gundog work there are powerful alternative rewards for the dog out there. (Flushing birds, running bunnies to be chased, deer, sheep...). So the dog will very quickly teach itself it can do one thing in competition and another in training. And then, really, you're in poo. And I just don't think it's fair on the dog to gamble that it will get it right that time. Doing trials is hard enough (I discovered only last year) when the dog is reliable - Slate entered 3 trials last year and didn't get an award, despite the fact that in none of them did she get chucked out for anything - in 2 she didn't find anything to point on her runs (there genuinely wasn't anything there - nothing was kicked up and she was covering the guns), and on one she didn't get an award despite doing the full HPR and going to the water, because she made a pigs ear of a really easy blind retrieve on a pigeon. (She did eventually find it, but needed to be handled and made it look hard.) She is rock steady and in 3 trials we didn't have any luck. To enter her when she was unsteady would have just stacked the odds even more against her, besides giving her the chance to practise things I don't want her to practise
It sounds like Whistle is really coming on though, you must be chuffed with her.
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| sako75 |
I'll see you there Mike !!! 
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| Lynn |
I think all the Forum will be going up in convoy
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| BenB |
Some great pics on your flickr album there Claire - who's the dodgy looking lanky chap?
Looks like whistle is getting some brilliant experience under her belt! |
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| countrygirl |
I had a 'Ben' moment with Rumour a few weeks ago when she went off dear chasing deer, when she got back she got the bollocking of her life as I was as mad as hell , she is now greaty improved she will still track off on scent but If I yell she returns and looks 'sheepish' so she knows what she is doing is wrong its just getting her past the stage of not doing it atall I suppose the temptation is just too much 
Caz |
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| windem bang |
Last winter I had big problems with Buck chasing deer. I got lucky when a deer was so frightened that it ran towards me. I rugby tackled Buck and damn near jumped up and down on his head ! This was the start of me gaining some control with deer around. He hasn't seen any for a while now - that worries me 'cos it's very likely I'll have to start all over again training him not to chase them. Where steadiness - to anything - is concerned it is usually a case of practice makes perfect.
Bill T. |
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| Claire |
No worries Mike
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