shirley cooper
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Hare coursing!What is everyones preferred method of dealing with Hare coursing. On saturday we went on a Hare and pointing training day. I was 1st up in the youngsters with my 11mth old weim who was working quite well till a hare got up and she took off after it at full pelt. I blew the stop whistle to no avail and then I kept whistling, ran and shouted. Now I know the theory if she doesn't obey the whistle when you blow it once you are teaching her to ignore it but I forgot all that when blind panic set in! Anyway she came back and when later she had a 2nd chase I was a bit more ready for her and immediately got after her shouting in a very growly voice and it was a much shorter chase. After the 1st run someone said I should have taken her back to the spot where I 1st blew the whistle and admonish her and make her sit but to be honest after the chase I wouldn't have known where this point was. I just wondered how you all deal with this?
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josie
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I think different people approach this differently. My personal take on it, with my dogs, would be:
I'd prevent it from happening by not putting the dog in the situation where it would happen until I'd trained her to respond in the way I wanted. That means either walking in places where I'm unlikely to come across any hares, not entering SPTs or FTs and doing lots of steadiness training. After a basic sit to whistle, I increase distractions to include rolling balls, thrown dummies, lots of excitement. Then I use a bolting rabbit (and a willing partner by way of Adam to tow said bolting rabbit up the hill and reset it repeatedly  ). Then a rabbit pen, using a long line so I can get the correct behaviour (sit), and reward it. Then the "real" world, going to a rabbity field and wearing a long line at first. I'd make sure that I don't need to use the long line at all to prevent chasing, before moving onto the next stage. (Otherwise I'm building on shaky foundations and it will just fall apart.)
The 2 things I really try to make sure are: 1. Always reward the sit with very tasty treat, game of tuggy or other big reward. And 2. Always prevent a chase from happening. This means that the dog is learning that trying to chase doesn't work and there is no reward there. But there is a huge reward if the dog sits. The combination of these 2 things, consistently repeated over time, eventually work.
All this takes a very long time - Grey is 2 yo now and it's only this summer that the final part of all this steadiness stuff will be done, so we can enter some FTs this winter.
Some people like their dogs to chase and think they can be steadied up later. I think it probably depends on the individual dog you have, and also how able you feel you are, as a trainer, to instill that obedience after the dog has learnt that chasing is so rewarding. I know that I wouldn't be able to stop Grey chasing once she had learnt how much fun it was. Slate, I think, might have been different.
All this is just my opinion and what's worked with my dogs.
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Bareve
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Good advice Josie but when you have a confirmed hare chaser that will still not be enough
Freddy was everything that you have mentioned to the point of going into a down position as soon as he saw a rabbit even before I blew the whistle but if he struck a hare he would be gone!!!
Shirley - I found the way it worked with Freddy was to use my voice. He knew what the stop whistle meant and was "very" good at an instant response but it didn't work with hares. The first time my voice worked was an accident - I automatically shouted "no" even tho I had the whistle in my mouth. Freddy is basically very responsive to my voice and me shouting made him do a "half halt" so I yelled "down" and he did stop and with a further "down" he went down and watched it away.
I had to do that another 6 times and now he treats hares in the same way as rabbit - once he see's them he is in the down position before I have responded with either voice or whistle.
Thinking back - each time he came back to me after his chase I basically put him on his lead and walked him home - which he hated - but I didn't want to tell him off once he had come back to me. I know some people when dogs "break" the sit then haul them back to the spot where they broke but unless you could stop her within a few feet I would have thought by the time you walked her out to where you think she broke she would have forgotten all about what had happened.
Whatever you do if the stop whistle doesn't work then stop blowing the stop whistle as it's not working. Do try the "verbal" especially if she isn't used you being "verbal"  If you are ever out with Rory and they strike a hare he is "very" verbal - more so than using a whistle.
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shirley cooper
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Thank you both, Sharon she did respond better when I was verbal rather than whistled as I think it came as a bit of a shock. I have been told before about taking them back to the spot where it happened but like you say she's probably forgotten it by then and also I would have to find the right spot. Needless to say we shall be working on this with a passion now, would a rabbit pen do any good do you think?
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Bareve
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That's what I think got through to Freddy was the voice - he wasn't used to be told off verbally at all so he literally stopped to find out what was going on!
I also initially stayed clear of hares (or tried to) but realised that the only way I was going to stop him was to meet the problem head on as such. So I did a SPT and I did lots of training/exercising in the hopes of meeting hares - I even F/T'd him knowing that he wasn't steady to hares and kept my fingers crossed that I didn't find one
Not sure about the rabbit pen as Freddy knew instantly the difference between hares and rabbits which was why I had the problem. It would be a good starting point but if you get to the stage where she is completely steady in the pen to rabbits and out exercising on rabbits but still isn't steady to hares I would say she has also learnt the difference between them!
Good luck Shirley
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shirley cooper
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Thanks Sharon
We had our 1st SPT yesterday and I was dreading coming across any hares but thank goodness we didn't with either the weim or the HWV pup. We hadn't actually come across a hare until saturday though the weim did manage to catch a mixy rabbit on the moors a few weeks ago. Come to think of it we havent come across a rabbit other than this one either so will actively be searching for them this week!!
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Lisa
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So how did you get on then Shirley?
I was petrified that Blu would be a chaser so I really drummed the steadiness into him, sos much so I created yet another problem that he then wouldn't pick up game!  He sat wonderfully to the whistle though!!
Saturday he had his first hare experience and this was with other dogs hunting too. One dog saw the hare and chased, then another dog joined the line and to my shock so did Blu!  I don't think he even saw what he was chasing but to him it looked like fun!! He ignored the one blow of the whistle, and I take a shaky bottle out with me which I throw close to him which is usually what stops him, I just wasn't quick enough and he was gone, he was soon back to me and I couldn't do anything as he had come back to me! How frustrating! 
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shirley cooper
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The weim pup - Visha didn,t have a v good run in the morning it was almost as if she was out for a stroll in the park, just a couple of indications of scent but no birds on her beat. In a way I guess a hare would have been good, at least it would have woke her up. She got asked to do a 2nd run in the afternoon and was much better this time but still no birds. The HWV - Csinszka was handled by my husband and she had a good run in the morning but Wayne hampered her a bit, no birds though and on her 2nd run I think she had had enough as she ran straight to me. This is now the 3rd time she has done this - she did it on the moors a few weeks ago, saturday on a training day and then on the SPT. We don't know if she is tired and wants her mom or because the gallery is nearer the action(which it has been on each occasion) so she hasn't forgotten about me by the time he lets her off. We don't want this to become a habit so don't know whether to swap dogs or hope that as she matures she will want to hunt more than want to be with me.
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Lisa
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Blu is like this with either my daughters or Pete, if they are around he won't do anything! He will just run for them thinking he is missing out on something! and he is now 2!! Our rule is kids and husband are banned from where Blu is training! Suits me
Shame there weren't any birds, and you never have a hare when you need one!! 
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Greymaster
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I think we have all had a weimaraner-hare-raising weekend. It was frightening seeing those barbed wire fences looming wondering if your dog was going to cheese-wire itself being focussed on the hare.
No physical harm done, but when Misty returned her heart was pounding so hard it was almost like a cartoon character, beating out if its chest.
Misty was one to join the pack. We were in a dip and she caught sight of two weims haring across the horizon and just went to join them, it was a conspiracy, with sudden whistle-deafness kicking in.
That's one risk of hunting them too far ahead and ranging wide I guess.
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DesO'Neile
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When it comes to dog training I am really a bit of a neanderthal so I don't understand why somebody would play "tuggy" with a dog that they might possibly want to retrieve to hand. From my limited exposure to explosives dogs I understand tuggy as a reward but not in the context of a retrieving dog. Obviously a competition dog needs to be completely steady and also deliver a retrieve willingly. A shooting dog doesn't need to be completely steady but still needs to deliver. I simply can't see tuggy and easy delivery as anything other than mutually exclusive for the vast majority of trainers.
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josie
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Well, it works for me and my dogs: Very gentle mouths on game, excellent retrievers to hand and have always used tuggy as a reward. I'm not the only one - I know of others who also use tuggy. Admittedly not a thousand of them, as even positive reinforcement in gundog work is only at the very beginning.
I like to think that dogs are intelligent enough to know the difference between game and a toy and to moderate their bite accordingly. After all, we think nothing of their chomping their way through a raw bone or two... I'm always bemused that people usually don't mind the idea of gundogs being BARF fed - used to eating raw meat and considering it "food" - but seem to think that a dog can't differentiate between a piece of rope and a dead bird...
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Bareve
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Now running in-experienced dogs together in a line is not something I would recommend because of this "chase" situation. I've seen a very experienced, steady dog suddenly become unsteady as a pack of dogs swept past him chasing a hare. No - not for me - far too much of a temptation. 
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BenB
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"How to deal with hare coursing?"
To answer your original question you really need something with a bit of saluki blood in it, maybe a 1/2 cross with some whippet or greyhound blood.
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Greymaster
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Or lead boots!
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windem bang
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Having a dog 100% steady to rabbits does not mean it will be steady to hares. Hares behave differently.
I don't understand why a number of dogs - some of which were obviously not steadiness trained , were off running together at the same time ?
I too find a shout very efficacious if Buck begins to chase , it catches him by surprise because I seldom use my voice while a dog is hunting.
A lot depends on the circumstances as to whether or not a "trained" dog will chase. Buck found 3 white hares while on a S.P.T. a few weeks ago . He made no attempt to chase. He put up one hare a week ago at a training class and he did attempt to chase and was stopped by a roar from me. The difference was about 130 yards of distance. The white hares were all found withi about 30 yards of me - so he felt just a trifle inhibited !!! The brown hare was around 150 yards away - he didn't "feel my presence."
I don't think releasing a number of dogs to form a hare chasing pack is a good idea at all. Most dogs would succumb to the chase temptation under those circumstances - it's a recipe for disaster I,M.O.
Bill T.
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Lisa
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We were on a Partridge count. Blu had been steady all day and had not chased a thing, which was my biggest fear, we have done so much steadiness with him and I was so pleased with him! We had deer run past us and others had chased the odd hare but he was very good and sat when the whistle went. Towards the end of the day was when the last chase went and I just wasn't quick enough  he saw the other dogs go and I should have been on him quicker but I just didn't expect him to go! Lesson learnt! 
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langhaar
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Why is it so frowned upon for young dogs to chase hares ?
A young dog cannot at this early period of training, distinguish what game is in front of him, fur or feather it's all the same to him, it's game!
Isn't the point of owning a HPR is having a dog who is capable , with experience, of differentiating game scent, that's what makes them what they are. Taking a dog back to hare scent and punishing * it is admonishing a young dog for being bred for multi game species. The punishment should not be be the finding and chasing of game but only the ignoring of the stop whistle. Would this forum members trainer take a dog back to where a bird lifted and scold it for chasing a bird. I would think not so what's the difference with hares?
Hare training should always be about obedience or the lack of it, finding any type of game should be credited. That's why continental spring pointing tests don't eliminate young dogs for chasing hares.Putting young dogs into a situation when they are still too inexperienced to know the difference between species is putting a dog into a minefield.Expecting a young dog to point partridge while expecting it not to chase hares is unrealistic.
*I use this word only as a negative re-inforcement and not implying poor treatment.
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windem bang
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In spring pointing tests on partridge in this country around 22 years ago the dogs were hunted individually and dogs were given about 50 -60 yards to be brought back under control if a hare got up.
What is the rule applying to hare chases now ?
When half a doz. dogs are hunting at the same time we can hardly blame the dogs if pack mentality takes over from training.
I have 2 or 3 times done that kind of work myself with multiple dogs out there hunting at the same time .......I gave it up as a bad job a long time ago. Even if I managed to control my dog I could not depend on the others present to be able to control theirs. When their dogs roared past mine in hot pursuit of a hare it was touch and go whether my training would hang together or not. That kind of multiple dog work was making a rod for my own back.
Bill T.
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