josie
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hip scoring - before 1st season a bad idea?Grey is going to be 1 yr old in about 3 weeks so I was thinking about organising her hip scoring.
Only she hasn't had her 1st season yet. Do you think I should wait until after that?
People say it's best not to score them just before/during a season because the joints can be looser (so goes one theory) but I won't know when it could be if she hasn't had one yet. And I did also wonder if her first season might have some sort of maturing effect on her joints in some way, so I should wait for it?? What do you think? Should I do it bang on 12 mnths anyway, or should I wait for 1 season? (Slate's first season was at 8 mnths and she was scored at 12mnths, so I didn't have this dilemma then.)
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windem bang
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What's the hurry ? Why not wait until the season is over if it worries you at all ?
Bill T.
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weima
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I have always had my bitches done at 13 months whether they have had a season or not. I haven't had any problems & if you asked my vet who breeds Weimaraners she would say the same.
It's not so much the taking of the xrays but who is scoring them 
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Helen
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Have I heard this right - I am willing to be wrong as my brain is mush at the moment!. Anyway, is it better to get them hip scored in between seasons? Going by what you have said Claire, it doesn't matter??
Helen
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sako75
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| Quote: | | I have always had my bitches done at 13 months whether they have had a season or not. |
Same here , we had Millie done at 13 months under sedation rather than GA.
Barry.
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weima
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It doesn't make any difference whether they are in season, have just finished or just about to have a season. Unfortunately there are a lot of myths around about a lot of things to do with animals in general.
Grey may not have a season until she is 2 years old, it is possible. Slate is from a line that does tend to have early & frequent seasons hence why she had a season at 8 months
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josie
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Well, luckily they are not frequent, only every 6 mnths, which is plenty for me.
I'll use Marilyn again, who uses sedation, and scored Slate.
Bill - there isn't a big hurry, but hip scores can be affected by injury or by wear and tear, so I think a lot of people want to get them done early rather than wait a long time. I have an extra incentive to want to do Grey sooner, because sometimes I am a bit concerned about her movement on her rear right leg, particularly when she has been running for a while so I do want this soon as a form of reassurance as well.
Helen - I've no idea if the theory that they should be done between seasons is right or not, it's just something that some people say and as there seems to be no way of knowing if it's true I thought it wouldn't hurt to do it between seasons anyway!
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Ghilliegumdrop
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I have been told that scoring by the BVA cannot be done under 12 months so the Demon is booked in for April  With a bit of luck it may quieten him down for 5 minutes 
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Rhimad
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My Vet wont do it under sedation? Saker will hip scored this year, then I will be looking for a handsome boy for her in 2009
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Danielle Mason
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Hip scoringWe managed to pesuade our vet to hip score under sedation. Our boy is 19 months and we are hoping to have his done as soon as possible.
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weima
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| Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | | I have been told that scoring by the BVA cannot be done under 12 months |
No it can't.
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Linda W
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My oldest 2 were done when they were 3 1/2 years old Chloe's score was 5/2 and Chance's score was 2/3. If the hip is good it shouldn't change too much. Though as said, injury will make a difference if it is a very bad one, but what is the likelihood of that kind of injury? I've always waited until my bitches are about 2-3 months after a season, but there isn't a real reason for doing it.
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BritAnnie
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What is the Forum's opinion on unbalanced hip scores? I have always been advised by my vet that the hips should as far as possible be equal. My three were all done at around 18 months and are 3/4, 3/5 and 7/7. (the girls were done when NOT in season, but not at any particular time between them) But I have heard of scores of 19/3, 13/5, 17/2 etc which to me indicates possible HD on one side to a degree (apart from being above our breed average of 17). Thoughts?
Annie
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weima
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Any dog that doesn't have a 0:0 score has HD to a degree. I too am led to believe that as close to equal scores is better than 1 high 1 low hip.
The Weimaraner breed average is 13 however, and this will apply to all breeds, it is only the average of the dogs that are actually scored. If all dogs were scored then the averages would be higher.
I am not a hip score fanatic but do like my dogs to be scored for my own piece of mind and those buying my pups or using my stud dogs. If a dog had a score of say mid 20's then I would still use the dog but any higher than 30 I would think twice.
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BritAnnie
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I'd agree with that. I wouldn't be happy with anything above 20 either.
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windem bang
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I don't know enough to say much about equal hip scores being desirable. I had a hip score of 3 and 5 for one of my lab bitches. One buyer from a litter I bred from her backed out saying this was too high a hip score. He bought a pup from a bitch with a better score. I knew this bitch had other faults (nasty tempered around other dogs and a bit temperamental about retrieving)
About a year later this man asked me how to cure his young dogs retrieve problems. I'm only human. I told him to ask the breeder he'd bought it from!   Never mind , maybe it had good hips !
I think there are other things just as important as a good hip score. Working dogs need those other things too - remember to score for them.
Bill T.
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Helen
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I have read, in the distant past, that a very different score could be down to injury. No idea how true that is and of course, I could have been dreaming it!
Helen
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weima
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| windem bang wrote: | I think there are other things just as important as a good hip score. Working dogs need those other things too - remember to score for them.
Bill T. |
You're absolutely right Bill but unfortunately some people will only look at a dogs hip score & not the dog as a whole
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Linda W
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Before scoring any dog I would make sure that it had a good temperament. There is no point in breeding from a nasty dog (or bitch ) as it would only pass on these 'qualities'. Then I would want to know that it could hunt. If it didn't show any sign of wanting to work in any way I wouldn't want to breed from it. HPR's are working dogs, and IMHO they should be bred firstly for that. What is the point of having the most beautiful dog in the world if it can't do what it was bred for? 
As to the actual scoring. The sire of one of my bitches had an uneven score. Whether it was from injury or not I'll never know, but my bitch herself had a decent evenish score (only a point or two different.) When do you decide what is uneven? Is it 5 points, 10? Or a lot more?
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weima
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| Linda W wrote: | | When do you decide what is uneven? Is it 5 points, 10? Or a lot more? |
I think when the score is difference is more than 10 eg 3:12=15
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Ghilliegumdrop
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One of the worst moving dogs I ever saw had a hip score of 0/0, another, owned by the same person, moved like a dream with no problems from her hips and her score was 49/44 But I suppose, being more or less even, she would have moved straight anyway. These, by the way, were Border Collies
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windem bang
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Back when the world was young and I was an apprentice guide dog trainer one of the things I was supposed to learn was how to spot H.D.
I was to look for " a hitching gait." The head trainer, ( god bless his stinky cotton socks) would move dogs past me and have me give my opinion of them.
Dogs were X- rayed from time to time but the testing procedure was crude. I seem to remember trying to hold struggling dogs down on a table on their backs while a vet or sometimes two pulled and pushed the hind legs into the required positions. I can remember one little lab spraying poo around in his terror.
Only rarely did the x-ray results and the results of the "hitching gait" spotting happen to agree. A fault in a dogs movement I easily pick up on but I do not think anyone can accurately prophesy H.D. on the basis of simply looking at how a dog walks.
With no real knowledge of anatomy or of "conformation" I have been able to pick sires for my bitches or pick pups from known sires and dams. I do go by how they work and how they move and after 40 years of choosing in this way I've never yet had one single dog fail me as a worker due to any leg problem. The problem my dogs seem to be unlucky with is cancer, this filthy illness has caused the early deaths of 3 of my dogs.
I still don't think much of the H.D. testing system - there are variables and unknowns in there that make a fool of the test at times but for the time being it is all we have unless we all become "hitching gait" experts.
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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I also think it depends who is on the 'panel' when your dog's xrays go to be read. Some people cannot read one for toffee
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windem bang
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I think there is a lot of truth in that Jan.
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | | score could be down to injury |
Our second Brittany, Bonnie, had a high score - 30/28 (she was never bred from for that reason). We got her from her breeder at 14 months. She had been kept in a small run with her brother and had got into the habit of 'bouncing' up & down on her back legs to expend her energy. Her breeder didn't take her out working with her brother because she wouldn't range far enough(stayed within 25 yards!). We had her scored as soon as we got her as we had intended breeding, but it was not to be. She was a very loving bitch and lived to the ripe old age of 17 and a half - with no pain in her back legs at all, she eventually had to be pts as she became incontinent and went gaga, poor thing. She was a great little show dog but I could never keep her closer than 200 yards when I let her off to hunt - so much for her breeder saying she wouldn't range
BA
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weima
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| Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | | I also think it depends who is on the 'panel' when your dog's xrays go to be read. Some people cannot read one for toffee |
That's what I said in my original post
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Liz
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Going back to timing the x-ray with the bitch's seasons - I had Sherry done fairly quickly after her first season (she waited until 15 months before she came in) and she came back with a score of 36 (17:19) way out of line with her parents and litter brother - which is why she won't be bred from. I've always wondered if her high score was due to it being too close to her season - and I guess I'll never know.
Oddly enough, though, a lot of people at agility say she is one of the smoothest jumpers around!
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Sorry Clare....do you think we will all get put down when we go Ga-Ga like Annie's girl 
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josie
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Liz, that is just what I'm afraid of. I mean, what if I do it and get a high score, I will then always wonder what would have happened if I hadn't done it close to a season. But on the other hand, if I wait, I could be waiting ages! Sigh.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Why would being in season, or close to being in or going out, affect the hip score What does your vet say Have you asked him/her
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cressy
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| Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | | Why would being in season, or close to being in or going out, affect the hip score What does your vet say Have you asked him/her |
Knowing that at certain points during a human cycle hormone influences will make certain connective tissues more lax ( ultimately to soften the symphysis pubis to allow the passage of a babies head) I guess there is a worry that if the dog is at the same point in its cycle the hips may be 'looser' than normal making the angulation measurements etc different. My assumption here not that I have facts, my weim was never hip scored as she had too many health issues so breeding was out of the question. None of the boys are done, a bit late for Mugi , Freddy had some arthritis when I got him at 13 months old so little point and he would never be bred from and Deerhounds are not scored so Brice has not been done. Chase will be done as soon as my health issues are sorted, thankfully my own vet is able to perform the procedure under sedation and comes highly recommended.
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josie
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It's not my vet who does the scoring and vets don't always know best, so I try to get a range of opinions and go with the majority. But in this case there seems to be nothing to lose by waiting (apart from not knowing for sure if there is a problem) and potentially something to lose by doing it at the wrong time, so perhaps I should just wait.
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windem bang
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Does anyone know if there is a "best time" to have male dogs X-rayed for H.D. scoring ??? As far as I'm aware none of Bucks ancestry have been scored going back to when Methuselah was a pup !
On the odd occasion when I've asked about H.D. scores for G.S.P.'s I've been looked at with horror. Two of my G.S.P.'s were tested years ago but this was done as a comparison study by the Royal VET. Assoc., they wanted to check G.S.P. hips against Doberman Pinschers.
The usual message I get from G.S.P. breeders is if it aint broke don't look for a break ! Up to present this has worked well so I can't complain.
Maybe the show bred lines are different, I couldn't say as I never go near show breeding.
Bill T.
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Claire
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Personal preference here but I would wait until after first season. I've absolutely no experience behind me to back that up, its just a gut instinct based on thoughts similar to what Sue has posted above. I also think that the chances of an injury giving a higher score is extremely low unless your dog has suffered a serious injury that you are aware of. Again personal preference here, but my thoughts are that if you wait until your dog has totally stopped growing, started to mature and had a season if its a bitch, then the score is likely to be more accurate because one would assume that once the dog has stopped growing, the joints are going to settle down etc. IMO the most important thing about hip scoring is accuracy as opposed to how low can the score be.
I got Whistle done after her first season and when she was 19mths old. I was a tad worried because she had been a nightmare of a pup to stop tearing around the place, but her score came back as 4:6 which I was quite happy with. Interestingly my breeder and I put Whistle's x-ray on top of her dams x-ray and compared them. Same vet had taken the x-rays, the hips believe it or not were almost identical and infact 1 of Whistle's hips (the one scored a 6) was slightly better than her dams (we measured them as well as just looking at them) and her dams score was 5:5 which made us wonder if Whistle's score should have been slightly lower or her dams score should have been slightly higher
Bill I can't comment on the show lines stuff as thankfully weimars are not split But perhaps if more people who breed purely for working actually got their dogs scored then you would get a more accurate picture all round 
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windem bang
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Yes Claire, you are probably right but among the many folk I know who work their G.S.P.'s pretty much non -stop here in Scotland , I don't know of any that hip score their dogs. I even know vets with G.S.P.'s who do not hip score their own dogs ! Maybe I've just been very lucky up to now, I don't know but I do know that Dirk, Bucks uncle and a dog I bred myself died at 14 years of age and was still running at that age. Maybe some lines are good and others are not ? I've stuck to pretty much the same lines for about 20 years.
I had considered having Buck tested because I've already had a couple of enquiries about using him at stud. The bother is the bitches that came to him would be unlikely to be tested and I have no right to tell others to test their bitches.
Bill T.
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Claire
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I would agree, I don't know any working GSP people up here that have their dogs hip scored either. Still, its each to their own I say
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | | I have no right to tell others to test their bitches |
You have EVERY right. If you let him mate a bitch that hasn't been tested and she produces pups which subsequently have serious HD problems your dog will get the blame, even if his score is good.
I always stipulate bitches must be below the breed average of 17 or my dogs will not be used oin them.
BA
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Claire
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Thats a very good point Annie I have turned down stud enquiries for Harris, for a variety of reasons really including because he is not hip scored. I wasn't keen on allowing him to be used at stud because I was concerned that it would change his attitude towards other dogs. He wasn't the most confident around male dogs when he was a youngster due to being attacked 3 times, however working him on our shoot has given him bags of confidence because of course he is expected to run around, off lead, with several dogs many of which are male. So for me, the risk of using him at stud and changing that attitude just wasn't worth it. But also, he is sooooooo scared of the vets that I didn't want to put him through hip scoring unless I really had to. Shame in one sense because I think he could produce something nice if he were put to the right bitch, but its not the be all and end all
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Bill, all you need to do is have some stud cards made up with his pedigree printed on them [short form] and underneath state....
At stud to approved Hip Scored Bitches only, fee £....., no pups, no fee [or whatever]
Ask for a copy of the bitches pedigree and if you don't like it you can always say they don't match up...or it would be doubling up on something undesirable.
Then if you don't like the breeding or the bitch is not hip scored don't let him be used.
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Hapsberg
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| windem bang wrote: | Maybe I've just been very lucky up to now, I don't know but I do know that Dirk, Bucks uncle and a dog I bred myself died at 14 years of age and was still running at that age.
Bill T. |
I'm sure that Sharon will tell me if I'm wrong but in GWP's, the highest hip score we have ever had was a dog called Wittekind Hamilton. This dog never showed signs of hip problems and was worked until a ripe old age..... and yet his hip score would have had you believe that the dog should have been crippled.
Claire
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weima
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| Hapsberg wrote: | | windem bang wrote: | Maybe I've just been very lucky up to now, I don't know but I do know that Dirk, Bucks uncle and a dog I bred myself died at 14 years of age and was still running at that age.
Bill T. |
I'm sure that Sharon will tell me if I'm wrong but in GWP's, the highest hip score we have ever had was a dog called Wittekind Hamilton. This dog never showed signs of hip problems and was worked until a ripe old age..... and yet his hip score would have had you believe that the dog should have been crippled.
Claire |
I too have had a bitch like that & she is coming up 11 yrs old now as fit as a fiddle with no sign of arthritis. I didn't breed from her because of her score but that's no real shame.
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Bareve
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| Hapsberg wrote: |
I'm sure that Sharon will tell me if I'm wrong but in GWP's, the highest hip score we have ever had was a dog called Wittekind Hamilton. This dog never showed signs of hip problems and was worked until a ripe old age..... and yet his hip score would have had you believe that the dog should have been crippled.
Claire |
There has been quite a few really "high" scores - the highest one listed in the results is in the 70's and this dog finished in the ring and lead a very normal life. This highest ever scored dog (max both sides) isn't showing on the list (but then some of the older dogs don't seem to be showing neither) but that bitch couldn't be kept in a kennel/run because she would jump out of anything - no fence could keep her in. She wasn't bred from but I believe led a totally normal lifestyle - interestingly she was quite closely bred - from memory almost father/daughter.
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