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Mike

HPR FT Championship 2013

It would appear that the HPR FT Championship is back on this year.

Only details at present:

15th & 16th November 2013 on the Swinton Estate which is in the Harrogate, Masham area.
wildman

Where did youhere about that Mike?

Chris
Greymaster

Penny Simpson posted a round robin email yesterday, but Nigel Dear (KC) has also discussed it briefly on Facebook.

It is to be run by the KC.
munstyman

I've just had a message through the HPRFTA to the same effect, it must be true Smile
Peter
DesO'Neile

Perhaps you already know but when it's announced I'd be interested to know what the qualification requirement will be.
biscan

Does anyone know the results?
Jo

Winner & Guns Choice - 10.Mr M Canham's 's FTCh Jhebron's Nephrite of Stubblemere
2nd Place - Mr C Gray's FTCh Trugvang Balder
3rd Place - Mr R Gould's Wamilanghaar Cara
4th Place - Mr A Blackledge's Kerride Henry
Diploma of Merit - Mrs R Field's Deepthatch Pocona
windem bang

Does anyone have a list of all the competitors ? Wish I could have been there to spectate .

Bill T.
DesO'Neile

Would somebody please explain the status of woodcock at H.P.R. trials. Is there ever a circumstance where a dog can bump a woodcock, or pass a woodcock, and remain in the stake?
When I say is there ever, there are circumstances, I believe in retriever trials that once the trial has progressed to a certain level a dog will not be eliminated. There is also the question of snipe in Pointer and Setter trials. You can bump every one you come to and be ok but if you point the first and then bump the second on you are out.
I did take a quick look through the J Regs and haven't found this point covered.
romanriver

Des, I was put out today for not pointing one, she indicated but not enough!
windem bang

I was twice eliminated from HPR trials for my dog failing to point woodcock.

Snipe seem to be a bit of a grey area. I have been at trials where a couple of the dogs did point snipe while some of the others did not. The snipe found, pointed and flushed were not shot at and in one of those trials only two dogs , not the dogs that had pointed snipe, were fortunate enough to find partridges that were shot. Only the partridge pointing dogs got into the top places.

I thought that was a bit unfair .

Bill T.
greylag

not 100% on this but woodcock treated like other game,snipe credited if found but not punished if missed
terrier

After years and years without a championship the hpr group have finally got thier wishes granted and have once again had a championship to run in. After years of shame , caused by dodgy judging etc etc, the kc have finally agreed the hpr group have got thier house in order. Due to work commitments i could not attend the event. Could anyone post a link to any reports on the championship event please because the silence on this forum is deafening.
windem bang

I will second that.

Bill T.
romanriver

Cant wait for the video, personally I don't think the house is in order yet, but its getting there!
terrier

I have just watched the dvd twice.
Helen S

And.......  Confused

Helen S
terrier

These are MY thoughts on the dvd. The championship looked better than the 1996 one , nothing could be as bad , but not a lot better. What struck me was the apparent poor levels of training. All through the competition dogs did as they pleased. A single "pip" of the whistle, no reaction. A long single "peeeeeeeep", no reaction. Multiple " pip pip pip", no reaction. "heel,heel,heel" , "sit,sit,sit" no reaction. Dogs "roared" at to sit to flush. Dogs continually told to "hold" whilst retrieving. Not good. If this lack of training and poor handling is over looked nothing will move on. It ain't moved much in 17 years. And these are the best dogs !!!!!!.
windem bang

If that's how it went there is hope for me yet !  Laughing

I can see no reason why HPR's are not generally trained steadiness to flush and fall of game to the same standards as field trial spaniels. Spaniels are often further away from their handlers than are HPR's during the flushing of game yet spaniels stop instantly ....or else they get chucked out of the trial.

It might do HPR judges a lot of good to attend a couple of Open spaniel trials to see for themselves the standards of steadiness ..... with minimum noise .....that can be achieved.

I'm a bit puzzled about the "Heel-heel-heel." Why did any dog need to walk to heel in an HPR trial ?

Bill T.
terrier

Every single trial i have ever been to i have heard a competitor tell his/her dog to heel. Wether during a walk up, moving to try for a eye wipe or moving to different ground.
windem bang

That's interesting. I competed in a good number of HPR trials including two Championships and never saw a dog required to walk to heel. Things must have changed over the years.

Bill T.
windem bang

I think I have read you wrongly Terrier. I did see and hear the dogs still on the lead being told to heel during trials with very little result but since those dogs were not being judged at the time it didn't matter.

I agree the dogs were not properly heel trained but I aslo see and hear the same heel command given by the competitors not "under the judges" at spaniel trials..... those handlers too use the word "heel" to mean " do not pull so hard." Doing that is common to both hpr and spaniel trialers. Only the retriever trial handlers say heel and mean "Heel."

Bill T.
romanriver

just watched the dvd Crying or Very sad fantastic ground, heard lots of good things from people who were there but the footage shows something different!
terrier

windem bang wrote:
I think I have read you wrongly Terrier. I did see and hear the dogs still on the lead being told to heel during trials with very little result but since those dogs were not being judged at the time it didn't matter.

I agree the dogs were not properly heel trained but I aslo see and hear the same heel command given by the competitors not "under the judges" at spaniel trials..... those handlers too use the word "heel" to mean " do not pull so hard." Doing that is common to both hpr and spaniel trialers. Only the retriever trial handlers say heel and mean "Heel."

Bill T.
I am far too "pc" to give you my honest reply. Lets just agree to disagree.
terrier

romanriver wrote:
just watched the dvd Crying or Very sad fantastic ground, heard lots of good things from people who were there but the footage shows something different!
Can we have have your critique of the dvd please?.
romanriver

The ground and game supply were fantastic, organisation also looked good. I think it unfair to criticise too heavily as I was not there and do not want to be personal. But I was shocked by some of the footage. Anyone who thinks it was a good event needs to go and watch Retriever or Spaniel trials and see how they compare.
I love the HPR breeds and they are a joy to watch, but unless sights are set far higher they will not improve which is a shame.
weima

Maybe David Tomlinson's article on the Championship in the ST was more accurate than people realise then?
Jo

Romanriver, what especially were you disappointed by?  (I didn't see it, nor the video, but I'm curious as to what the ongoing faults are seen to be with HPRs - and why they don't improve.)
romanriver

hard mouth, running in, false points, shouting at dogs, dogs ignoring whistle commands, very poor deliverys. This was the championship!
whvsteve

post subject

hi i went on day 1 and have seen the dvd in my opinion it was very well run on a good ground and the judges did a good job.
i fort the was 5 or 6 good dogs some of them went out due to bad luck that happens.
As for the others i am sorry put slow unfit and lack of style .
I do not know how the judging works i think the needs to be more emphasis put on ground work and hunting drive.
I stopped trialing my h.w.v because she did not enough drive maybe some breeds do not have it.
                                  yours steve
windem bang

romanriver wrote:
hard mouth, running in, false points, shouting at dogs, dogs ignoring whistle commands, very poor deliverys. This was the championship!


Personally I would expect a few false points and wouldn't be too hard on this as long as the same dog did not make them all.

I didn't see the video or the trial itself but the other faults mentioned sound just like the same faults I saw 15 to 30 years ago in HPR trials. Dogs behaving like that in any trials held for non HPR breeds would be eliminated.

I lost count of the number of HPR's I saw beginning to run-in to flush, shot and fall in trials a long time ago. Neither the handlers or the judges seemed to think this was a fault if the dogs could be stopped using voice, whistle or ,once or twice , even jumping in between the dog and the fallen bird ! I saw that done in a Championship.

Our judges really should be made to attend a couple of spaniel trials as observers. They would get their eyes opened as to what real steadiness is.
Steadiness standards need to be set back at Novice trial level long before a dog gets to the Championships.

Bill T.
Greymaster

Even attending a FT what the judges see can be very different from the impression formed in the gallery. So imagine watching a DVD at home, filmed from a single vantage point.

What cannot be appreciated is the wind, its direction, strength and the temperature at the location the dog is hunting.

For sure, faults from dog and handler will be evident, particularly on the delivery and present, and then the verdict of the judges when discarding a dog.

I surmise even so that the recent HPR Championship was light years ahead of the one preceding it.
romanriver

Nigel, shouting at your dog is poor standards, so is whistle deafness.
I take your point about viewing angles but watch it and make your own mind up
Greymaster

I bought the '94 and '96 VHS dubbed to DVD versions, so will wait till someone lends me theirs! Laughing
hprmad

Ive watched the dvd a couple of times and apart from one or two dogs it looked like the standard was poor some of the dogs looked overweight and not very fit...

A good friend of mine who i train with run in this years spaniel championships asked to have a look at the dvd as he was thinking of getting a Brittany and he was horrified at the overall standard...
terrier

hprmad wrote:
Ive watched the dvd a couple of times and apart from one or two dogs it looked like the standard was poor some of the dogs looked overweight and not very fit...

A good friend of mine who i train with run in this years spaniel championships asked to have a look at the dvd as he was thinking of getting a Brittany and he was horrified at the overall standard...
Good post hprmad. The standard of dog work at the hpr championship would not a c.o.m at a novice spaniel trial. That's what i cannot understand, why is the training so poor?, surely some of the guys mate around with good spaniel /retriever guys??. Why don't they realise the standard is so low?.
caithness hunter

terrier wrote:
hprmad wrote:
Ive watched the dvd a couple of times and apart from one or two dogs it looked like the standard was poor some of the dogs looked overweight and not very fit...

A good friend of mine who i train with run in this years spaniel championships asked to have a look at the dvd as he was thinking of getting a Brittany and he was horrified at the overall standard...
Good post hprmad. The standard of dog work at the hpr championship would not a c.o.m at a novice spaniel trial. That's what i cannot understand, why is the training so poor?, surely some of the guys mate around with good spaniel /retriever guys??. Why don't they realise the standard is so low?.


Is the standard of training low? Perhaps its as good as its going to get with all the "dual purpose" or pet breeding going on in HPR's.
Greymaster

terrier wrote:
Good post hprmad. The standard of dog work at the hpr championship would not a c.o.m at a novice spaniel trial. That's what i cannot understand, why is the training so poor?, surely some of the guys mate around with good spaniel /retriever guys??. Why don't they realise the standard is so low?.


What aspect of the HPR's work are you condemning from your armchair viewing of the HPR Championship when you compare unfavourably to retriever/spaniel trials?

Does anyone ever compare against aspects of pointer/setter trials?

And never any credit for water work.

As a large part of HPR work is assessed on the hunt - range, pace, style, drive, use of wind, ground treatment etc. How have you objectively compared this work as seen on the DVD with retriever/spaniel trials?

It is always a cheap shot to speak as you have done but I am quite readily able to dismiss it as pure and simple bias unless you are able to argue your point objectively.
windem bang

When I went to spectate at a HPR trial last year I saw dogs hunting woodlands too fast and too far and I saw dogs hunting more open ground not fast and far enough.

The hard going dogs in the woods and game crops were inclined to miss or have accidental flushes on birds. The groundcover broke up the dogs pattern and caused "eliminating faults."

On the more open ground , which was mainly rashes, some of the dogs would not hunt far and fast enough and got down marked or dropped from the trial. The dogs that did try to show pace and range got turn whistled by the handlers who feared "letting 'em rip."

It would have been a very hard trial to win and all that was awarded was a c.o.m.

Are handlers becoming so used to having to keep dogs "in" if they want to win trials that when the chance comes to really run ,the dogs are too inhibited to do so ?
Is this part of what may be wrong with our trials  ?

To be fair to the majority of HPR 's of yesteryear although I saw many instances of dogs being out of control , I didn't see many dogs that lacked in range and pace.

Bill T.
Mickeydredd

Bill

You raise a valid point. Perhaps hpr owners are afraid to let their dogs open up as some judges may deem them to be "out of control" and perhaps prefer a tighter "regimented" pattern?

In moorland conditions with perhaps sparse grouse present, the only way an hpr will find game is by opening up, in addition to having decent head carriage, although as Will touches on, some modern hpr's dont appear to have the natural drive to do so.

Mike
Greymaster

windem bang wrote:
When I went to spectate at a HPR trial last year I saw dogs hunting woodlands too fast and too far and I saw dogs hunting more open ground not fast and far enough.

The hard going dogs in the woods and game crops were inclined to miss or have accidental flushes on birds. The groundcover broke up the dogs pattern and caused "eliminating faults."

On the more open ground , which was mainly rashes, some of the dogs would not hunt far and fast enough and got down marked or dropped from the trial. The dogs that did try to show pace and range got turn whistled by the handlers who feared "letting 'em rip."

It would have been a very hard trial to win and all that was awarded was a c.o.m.

Are handlers becoming so used to having to keep dogs "in" if they want to win trials that when the chance comes to really run ,the dogs are too inhibited to do so ?
Is this part of what may be wrong with our trials  ?

To be fair to the majority of HPR 's of yesteryear although I saw many instances of dogs being out of control , I didn't see many dogs that lacked in range and pace.

Bill T.


I think you may have summed up a typical HPR trial with three types of terrain all in one day and not every HPR will have been fortunate to run on its "bred for" terrain. Let's face it, there is such variety among each of the HPR breeds that none are likely to running on its designed for track at most trials.

In the long run, in the UK, by unnatural selection, and by running only "ALL HPR" trials we could end up with the unintended consequence of lowest common denominator of all the "versatile" breeds, rather than letting each breed excel at what it was designed for, running on its designed for terrain.

Moreover, there could be a propensity with the lack of diversity of breed specialism among FT Judges to unwittingly favour a single set of characteristics found in one breed type to the disfavour of other types.

FT custom and practice does not reward breeds with a propensity to track and curiously regard low head carriage as undesirable.
lagopuslagopus

I haven't seen any of the HPR videos/DVDs but I did read somewhere that the spaniel Championship this year was stopped early on the first day as too many dogs were going out! If that is true, and I don't know anyone who was there either,  they obviously weren't all perfect.  It only ever seems to be the HPRs that are criticised (rightly or wrongly)
windem bang

Since the whole idea of owning an HPR is that one dog can do the job instead of having to own several, I cannot see us having , for example, woodland only trials for Weims, moorland trials only for G.S.P.'s and marshland trials only for spinones.

Maybe it is my fault as a trainer but I cannot make a naturally slow paced or close ranging dog into a fast ,wide ranging dog. I can ,however, do the opposite of this to some extent.
Other handlers seem to be the same as me. They breed or buy naturally hard running pups and then have to train them to slow down and to keep closer in during woodlands work.

I can my hunt my present Brittany pup in woodlands but it is easier on my nerves to work my neighbours viszla instead ! The viszla does naturally what the Brittany has to be trained to do ......that is slow down and keep closer in. A trial judge would almost certainly give higher marks to the vizsla yet if those two dogs were seen hunting on open ground the judges opinion would be the opposite.

My point in writing this is that I might be able to slow the Brittany down enough to win a woodlands trial but I could not speed the vizsla up enough to win a stubble field trial.

If trailers are deliberately breeding towards slower dogs with less range then I think they are making a mistake.

Bill T.
windem bang

lagopuslagopus wrote:
I haven't seen any of the HPR videos/DVDs but I did read somewhere that the spaniel Championship this year was stopped early on the first day as too many dogs were going out! If that is true, and I don't know anyone who was there either,  they obviously weren't all perfect.  It only ever seems to be the HPRs that are criticised (rightly or wrongly)


The spaniel champs were stopped for a while for two reasons that I know of this year. One was that a man dropped dead with a heart problem I think ?

The other was that one of the guns fired a shot too close to a competing dog .

I have no doubt at all that dogs were eliminated for both hard-mouth and whining, they were during the last two spaniel championships I attended.

Bill T.
Greymaster

lagopuslagopus wrote:
I haven't seen any of the HPR videos/DVDs but I did read somewhere that the spaniel Championship this year was stopped early on the first day as too many dogs were going out! If that is true, and I don't know anyone who was there either,  they obviously weren't all perfect.  It only ever seems to be the HPRs that are criticised (rightly or wrongly)


It seems to be an alternate activity of the other breed groups to knock the HPR, rain or shine... sigh... Crying or Very sad
Greymaster

windem bang wrote:
Since the whole idea of owning an HPR is that one dog can do the job instead of having to own several, I cannot see us having , for example, woodland only trials for Weims, moorland trials only for G.S.P.'s and marshland trials only for Spinones.
Bill T.


Fair enough, but it should be realised that any one HPR will likely be outclassed by another breed which was bred to do well in woodland, or open moor etc. All though all can do a satisfactory job whatever the terrain, some will be outstanding if it is lucky enough in the running order to draw its favoured ground.
goshawker

windem bang wrote:

If trailers are deliberately breeding towards slower dogs with less range then I think they are making a mistake.

Bill T.

I don't think they are from what I have seen, although pet or non specific breeding can't help the situation.
Although a steady dog that does not trip itself up and commit an eliminating fault would probably have a better chance of getting through a trial with sufficient game, than a hard hunting dog that might trip itself up.
whether it has the style to get well up in the awards would depend on the judges i guess.
goshawker

Greymaster wrote:
windem bang wrote:
Since the whole idea of owning an HPR is that one dog can do the job instead of having to own several, I cannot see us having , for example, woodland only trials for Weims, moorland trials only for G.S.P.'s and marshland trials only for Spinones.
Bill T.


Fair enough, but it should be realised that any one HPR will likely be outclassed by another breed which was bred to do well in woodland, or open moor etc. All though all can do a satisfactory job whatever the terrain, some will be outstanding if it is lucky enough in the running order to draw its favoured ground.

Most of the low ground trials i have been on would on paper favour  a slower type dog. At home we can really open up on some decent rape fields and the odd root field… i have never had this luxury in a trial.
whvsteve

post subject

hi I feel most people do not want hard going h.p.r.s that will do 200 to 300 yards at a good pace a lot do not have the ground  to train one.              
I may be wrong but i think a lot will be worked on shoots beating or picking up or on small shoots which is ok  but i dont think it would be good for a hard  going dog.
Because here most of are shooting is for artificial reared game and were h.p.r.s come from they hunt more wild game most people need a slow pace dogs  thats not for me.      
I watched tom brechneys  dvd he said you can a make wide going dog come in but you cannot make a close working one go out and do not go into the woods until it is doing its ground how you want it to  yours steve
windem bang

Re: post subject

whvsteve wrote:
     
I watched tom brechneys  dvd he said you can a make wide going dog come in but you cannot make a close working one go out and do not go into the woods until it is doing its ground how you want it to  yours steve


I agree with Tom on this but do not now have access to open ground with sufficient game ...or any game at all on it to give a dog a "reward" or two in the form of a find. I tried hunting open ground, stubble fields mainly, with the vizsla I train and she began by making some effort to find game but quickly decided that open ground isn't worth hunting. She began to plod over open ground.

She did find game on ground with more cover and in woodlands so she is much better when hunted through that sort of ground. She is capable of doing well in a woodland trial but I never trial her ..... the chances are she would be given open ground to hunt. Good trial dogs can handle both types of ground.

I would think many other HPR owners have a similar problem ? If so then it isn't surprising that some field trial dogs appear to be a bit lacking in range and pace.

I hope to have access to a grouse moor soon and I will be very interested to see if finding a few grouse will cause her to open out and really run.

It has always been the case that those people best able to train and work their dogs over a variety of game holding ground did best in field trials .....the same applies to the spaniel trailers. Many keen spaniel trailers spend a small fortune taking their dogs to ground where the dogs can have multiple game finds that are shot over their dogs.

Spaniels get chucked out of trials fairly often for things like a whine or hard mouth ..... things their owners cannot "cure." They do not often get chucked out of trials for running-in to flushed and shot birds however. Their owners can and do train their dogs not to do that.

HPR's can be trained to be steady to that same degree too but few HPR owners seem to train to that standard . They depend upon whistles and shouts instead.
It is at least as easy to train an HPR to be steady to flush and fall as it is a spaniel....probably easier !

Unsteady or partially unsteady dogs cause trial performances to look untidy.

I.M.O. there is no reason for HPR's competing in trials being unsteady other than handlers who have not properly trained their dogs.

Bill T.
whvsteve

post subject

hi bill
I agree with what you are saying i am very lucky working on a hill farm in scotland i have 1ooos acres to train on it has very little game mainly snipe and hares.
As you know i have a h.w.v whos slow hunting did my head in and is now used on a small shoot i have gone back to a g.w.p which can get out and hunt but harder to train.
Back to the trail i fort most of the dogs were well trained.
so do we sit in are arm chairs and pull it to bits or do we move on and make it better.
No one can say it was not well run the k.c and every one did a great job.
I feel to make it better we should run one every 4 years.
         yours steve
windem bang

Re: post subject

whvsteve wrote:

I feel to make it better we should run one every 4 years.
         yours steve


Hi Steve, I know what you mean but 4 years is a very long time in dog terms. If a dog was ,for example, 3 years old when it won a Novice trial and was 4-5 years old when it won an Open trial and the dog happened to do this just after a four yearly Championship had been held then the dog would be 8-9 years old before it could run in the next Championships.

The trial would be renamed the O.A.P. Olympics ! Laughing
Personally, I ceased to trial dogs once they'd reached 4 years old and slackened off in their training in order to have the dog enjoy it's life a bit more.

Do you live near Dumfries by any chance Steve ? I have a couple of friends down near there with gundogs and one of them has access to a huge amount of hill and moorland . I went there last year to help him train his spaniel and the ground he had available to train on made my mouth water !
That kind of ground was wasted on a spaniel !

Like you said of your ground ,the game on it was a few snipe and hares but it also had a few grouse. If you have ground like that near home you are a very lucky man . It was about a 3 hours drive for me to reach it or I'd be there a lot more often.

Bill T.
Helen

Not seen or read anything about it.  Have had my head in the sand regarding the hpr world for a while.  However, peaking over the parapet a bit now!

Going on my experience of having a fantastic game finding pointer, and a pretty good game finding gwp.  I could take the pointer on ground with one pair of grouse - about 1.5 square km's.  She would work her socks off to find that pair and she did not let up.  My first wire, wouldn't do so well on that bit of ground but get him on a decent density bit of ground, and he did well.  Second wire, is doing better than he did on lower density.  Remains to be seen how my third copes when I get her up there.

I am not sure that low standards are due to "dual purpose" of this group.  I have a dual purpose wire who is being shown, and trained.  I obviously haven't got her amongst game but we come across it on our daily walk (lead) down the lane.  She has been pointing from a lot earlier than my other wires did.  I am excited for her and am hoping she meets my expectations.

Maybe, this is just a guess as I don't know, but from the spaniel/retriever trialists that I have met, they have all actually worked their dogs, as well as being shooting men.  Do hpr owners do the same, or are they purely training for trials?  I know that some do, as I have friends who do, but I am talking about the wider picture.  Interesting to know.

Helen
whvsteve

post subject

hi bill
I see what your saying 4 may be to long 2 years better so we are getting new dogs in it.
I live near st johns town of dalry in the Galloway hills i do not have red grouse the is 1 or 2 black grouse some times a lot of woodcock.
I do put a few hen pheasants down in the spring this works very well and i am going to try some partridge this year
              steve
greylag

i didnt go to the championship so wont comment on the trial itself,but i have run against several of the dogs this year and last.the standard of training and work is very good and to judge hprs as a group or critisise individual dogs on onr trial when conditions wernt great is harsh to say the least.conditions effect the hpr group far more than the spanners or retrievers.the other point raised about lack of drive or desire has to be countered with the fact that there are so many different breeds who all have different styles.hpr judges know this and should judge accordingly.imagine a clumber competing against a springer,ud think it had fell asleep,but that same dog would cover its beat and produce the game.
windem bang

greylag wrote:
.imagine a clumber competing against a springer,ud think it had fell asleep,but that same dog would cover its beat and produce the game.


I agree with that but clumbers normally run in trials for the spaniel breeds that exclude cockers and springers from them. I think only one clumber has ever gained an award in an Any Variety stake where springers and cockers competed ?

The HPR's have to compete against each other and I don't think judges would be too keen on the idea of giving the slower or less hard going breeds an extra 5-10 minutes of running time to compensate for their lack of range and pace. Doing that could cause complaints of biased judging from the other competitors .

Unless the various HPR breeds are to run in breed specific trials and hold their own breed specific Championships .... which is extremely unlikely, then things will have to remain as they are at present.
I wish there was an easy answer to this but I cannot think of one .....much as I'd like to see a breed other than the GSP win the Championships just for once ! Rolling Eyes  Laughing

Bill T.
whvsteve

post subject

hi bill
A G.W.P will win one soon if they hold any more
       steve
Mickeydredd

Re: post subject

Steve

They better hurry up cos there's a litter of gsps in town that will make their mark!  Laughing

Mike

whvsteve wrote:
hi bill
A G.W.P will win one soon if they hold any more
       steve
whvsteve

post subject

mike
That is good i think i have see the adds and pics of the litter you mean bring it on   ha ha    steve
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