| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Tobermory |
HPR vs English Pointers ?Hi everyone!I currently have German S/H Pointers and am looking to obtaining an English Pointer from working/show stock. Havinig had english pointers 15 years ago I am curious as to whether I can train an English to retrieve game, has anyone been successful? I love the breed and the reason I got a GSP was so I could work them on the local shoot. Has anyone used them in this way? |
||||||
| Helen |
We have 3 english pointers, and have just trained one for a friend. They can be used for retrieving, I think Derry Argue has them retrieving. I know one of ours will retrieve a ball when we are mucking around.
I think "Madmax" on here is wanting to use Max in the beating line but my initial thoughts of having 3 working line pointers, is that it's not the job for them. We work ours on the grouse, and it's a joy to see them run so hard and so far. I guess if the shoot is a partridge one where there is a lot of ground to cover, they may do better but I wouldn't like to say they would be any good on a pheasant shoot. I'm more than happy for someone to disagree with me. Maybe if you train them from the word go to go on a beating line, they may fair better. I'm just thinking of ours on the beating line and thinking I would never see them again lol. What did you do with your previous pointers? Helen |
||||||
| madmax |
Max's training is coming along well. He's doing well with the retrieving. It's not natural for him, but with perseverence, it's coming on. | ||||||
| Tobermory |
My English pointers were just pets I got my first english when I was 20, it was a rescue dog 10 months old with a massive scar down its hind quarters and had sarcoptic mange. It had no experience of being in a house and was terrified of noise, but it became the most affectionate and rewarding dog in many ways. My second pointer was obtained at 8 weeks to live with my 3 yr old 'first' pointer, this proved to be my initiation into the english pointer attributes and hardships of training!
I now work GSP's on local shoots and use them for counting grouse and partridge, I would envisage using an English for partridge counting, grouse counting and outside days on partridge. Although I would find it quite interesting to try to train them similarly to GSP's. I do not wish to curtail thier hunting drive and freerunning style as that is what they do so beautifully, but it would be quite nice to have a little more direction control and biddability. I don't think that I would use them in the beating line, as you say it would be quite a challenge! My younger GSP is quite hard to keep in, in the beating line as I allowed her too much free hunting when she was young. But I would not change that as it is in her makeup to run hard. |
||||||
| MC |
Yes, you can train your Pointers to retrieve game.
|
||||||
| DesO'Neile |
The U.K. and Ireland are the only countries that I am aware of where Pointers aren't used to retrieve. This is due mainly to the custom and practice that surrounds their useage here.
I like to hear of Pointers being used for different aspects of shooting but sometimes I have to ask myself, Why? |
||||||
| langhaar |
HPR/ PointerSome ex field trialling pointers retrieve shot grouse on their shooting days as Peter O Driscoll does with his. My Embercombe Pointer did so too and did it very well. No point dragging along a retrieving breed when you can use the one perhaps! |
||||||
| Tobermory |
Thanks for all your replies to my questions about retrieving with English Pointers, I never knew that Peter O'Driscoll used them for retrieving. Would anyone out there know of anyone who is breeding pointers that are from working stock but that also have good bone, I am looking for something that is in between the looks of a working pointer and that of a show dog. Of course I would not want to compromise the working ability but I like the look of a well boned dog. | ||||||
| Helen |
Try Dominic at Upperwood. That's where we get ours from. Here is a photo of Milly who is 3 years old and a fantastic worker.
Upperwood details at: http://www.dogsworldwide.com/upperwood.htm Helen |
||||||
| langhaar |
You will find it extremley difficult to find a Pointer which could be hopefully dual - purpose. I stopped going down that road after 15 years, nine years ago. If I wanted a Pointer with working ability and one with good conformation/ looks, there is only one kennel in the UK. Best talk to folks in the breed, there are many owners you never see who have a wealth of knowledge like falconer Roger Upton who has his own stud book going back to the 40's. | ||||||
| DesO'Neile |
Bone. Is this enough bone?
|
||||||
| sinan |
All English pointers out of UK do retrieving job.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Giy_KhQGVOg We import English pointers from Italy, Spain, Czech Republic, Hungary, Germany etc. and all our English pointers are good retrievers. If you look for an English pointer in Germany they do more jobs than HRP such as blood tracking, big game hunting like wild boar, deer etc. 
All English pointers have to retrieve in Germany otherwise the pointer club of Germany don't let them to breed as a working gun dog. The Germans have several exams for all breeds of gun dogs and these dogs have to do all kind of hunt. For instance cocker spaniel, English pointer, GSP (Germans don't call this breed as GSP they call German Shorthair), English setter should go for wild boar, deer, fox, woodcock, pheasant etc. There is no concept as a bird dog or versatile dog in Germany. All breeds should go for all kind of hunt in Germany. You can call all gun dogs as versatile in Germany. We have English pointer of Postschwaige blood from Germany. They are good retrievers. English pointer is HPR dog out of UK. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=lCJDEyE-YS0&feature=related http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=FvSdwVQcybo&feature=related http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=7FmpdMtSmo4&feature=related |
||||||
| Helen S |
I loved the shot of the three dog pile up!
Helen S |
||||||
| windem bang |
If the Germans are using pointers, setters to do blood tracking , retrieving etc. why did they bother to develop G.S.P.'s etcetera ?
Bill T. |
||||||
| sinan |
I don’t know why the Germans bother about GSP but I am not eager to have a dog from Germany because of their temperament. Their dogs are extremely cat-sharp and over bold. If you are not good trainer you probably can get in trouble in some situations in the field. Especially DK, DD, Weimaraner go for all kind of fur and feather. They attack to sheep, cow, donkey, livestock, sheepdogs. | ||||||
| maxine mccullough |
Hello Sinan, I cannot speak for the temperament on the DK or the Weimaraner in Germany but the temperament of the DD in Germany is excellent - they do NOT "attack" sheep cow donkey, livestock, sheepdogs". I do not know what experience you have with the Drahthaar but under the VDD system they are not allowed to be aggressive. We have several DD's from Germany and have competed in their system. IMO the temperament we have imported from Germany is far better that any of the original "GWP" temperament that was imported into the UK, nervous and aggressive dogs from these original lines still appear in the UK, still get bred from and still produce poor, nervous/aggressive temperament. If you are referring to the DD maybe you could let me know which lines/kennels you mean, I would be very interested to know. Regards, Maxine McCullough |
||||||
| Bareve |
Hi Maxine Interesting comment Are you including Mr Allround of Wittekind in your comment above as he was certainly one of the early imports in the breed and his temperament was second to none both with people and other dogs. Did you ever meet him?
|
||||||
| kiwi |
after spending most of my youth hunting pigs i can honestly say the english pointer is 'not' a breed i would like to see used for pig/boar, they say a picture can prove alot but the fence in the background tells me there is more to that picture than what you are trying to prove.
i also cut my teeth walking behind my old bosses english pointers and they can not compare to the versitile abilities the wirehair has, you need a bold,strong and a wee bit on the sharpside dog to hunt boar and track and contain animals the size of red stags, the gwp/dd ticks all the boxes. |
||||||
| maxine mccullough |
Hi Sharon, I did not meet any of the first few imported but I certainly met the first generation progeny and in fact only yesterday I had a chap here who had a first generation dog and a bitch from the original bloodlines in the UK before my time. The temperament on both was far from acceptable, both with people and dogs - I won't go into details on here, other than to say he was amazed at how friendly all our dogs were. There is nothing in the DD standard to suggest that the DD should be aloof with strangers (as our standard used to say) the DD standard uses words like firm, self controlled, well-balanced, not shy nor aggressive. Having just returned from Germany, once again, after visiting several kennels and meeting lots of dogs, not one showed any signs of poor temperament, they were all bold, confident and I made no excuses for going up and getting hold of every single one - not one batted an eye. The VDD state in their literature that the DD "should be friendly and self-aware with regard to people and dogs and is a suitable family dog. I am not saying things haven't improved in Germany as they have - they have worked very hard at getting the temperament that they now have and are very proud of that fact. My response was to the comment that the DD was aggressive and attacked various creatures from cows to dogs and I of course came to their defense. Whilst there may be some dogs outside of the VDD in Europe - if you are breeding under the VDD system or acquire a dog that has come through the VDD testing system, i.e. gone through all the tests - then a good temperament will be guaranteed. The dog has to be assessed several times in its life at these tests and judges cannot stand for nervous or aggressive behavior - you do very very occasionally see it recorded and it is documented that the dog was aggressive at a first VJP - the pedigree is stamped accordingly and therefore cannot be included into the breeding system, occasions like these are very rare though. Maxine |
||||||
| Bareve |
[quote="maxine mccullough"]
Hi Maxine I don't disagree with what you have just written and I agree the Germans have improved their temperaments by huge steps as we found to our cost on our first trip to Germany back in the early 80's where you couldn't put dog or bitch closer than about 6 ft to one another. Also some of the original German imports left a lot to be desired in temerament too 
All I was pointing out was that Mr Allround temperament was not as you said in your original email as that was one of the reasons Miencke imported him. Just for trivia - the original standard we used came from the FCI
|
||||||
| maxine mccullough |
[quote="Bareve"]
Hi Sharon, Maybe you didn't understand quite how I meant it:-)) - Mr Allround wasn't one of the FIRST ones imported neither was Desert Mills Henry and that was why Peter and Mary imported him - he did have the most wonderful temperament also javascript:emoticon(' ')
Probably like us - the FCI have changed their standards over the years - we are lucky as the VDD were going to be opting out of the FCI and the JGHV up to two weeks ago. This would have been catastrophic for the rest of the world as no-one would have been able to register any German imported dogs with any other Kennel Club - however fortunately it was decided to stay within the umbrella of the FCI. Maxine |
||||||
| Helen |
Having worked pointers and gwp's, I know which I would prefer to work on a boar! Think I would be too much of a wuss though and it would scare the life out of me lol.
Wonder why the rest of Europe use pointers to retrieve and the UK, on the whole, don't? Any idea Des? Helen |
||||||
| sinan |
Hi Maxine;
I never had a DD but I witness other hunters’ DD in bad temperament in Turkey. I don’t know the kennel names which they come from. I know some hunters who have DD, DK paid for the landowner for killed sheep by their dogs. As I mentioned that you can get this kind of situations if you are not good trainer. We don’t have VDD test system like in Germany. The dogs are not getting any VDD tests here in Turkey and maybe we can’t select bad temperament dogs. I am not sure about German VDD test system too. Aggression toward other animals is also related to socialising. Some sheep dogs can attack to sheep if they are not socialize with sheep in their critical period. This is the same for gun dogs too. But DD, DK, Weimaraner and some other German breeds’ agrresion level is higher than others. This is my observation only. Because of this I can say that German imported German breeds are not good for inexperineced hunters who is not good in dog training. |
||||||
| maxine mccullough |
Hi Sinan, It appears from what you have said you have sadly acquired some German Breeds with poor temperament. If whoever imported the DD into Turkey had looked into getting quality bloodlines from tested VDD dogs from Germany you certainly would not be having the poor temperament issues you are now experiencing - this is a great pity for you in Turkey. Regards, Maxine |
||||||
| sinan |
Maxine, They import puppies from Germany without finished their VDD examinations. Do you think that could it happen because of this? The dog should be adult to finish these exams. | ||||||
| maxine mccullough |
Hi Sinan, I can only speak for the DD - the VDD is the club which governs the DD and they are a very powerful and well respected club - the biggest within the JGHV. I know the other HPR sub-groups are members of the JGHV and obviously follow the same hunt tests but I am not aware of temperament issues etc., within other HPR breeds. Anyone who imports DD puppies into Turkey would be wise to only buy from tested DD parents, parents that have been through the complete testing system and that have achieved the stamp "Zuchtauglich" which means eligible to be bred from. Without this stamp you have no guarantee what you are getting and this is maybe where the problem lies. Regards, Maxine |
||||||
| DesO'Neile |
Simply custom and usage. But it wasn't always that way. Read Col Hawker's Diaries. | ||||||
| sinan |
Hi Des,
Where can I read Col Hawker's Diaries? Is it in the internet?? Hi Maxine, Do your DD club in the UK hold the same exams with German DD club in Germany? How do you organize these exams? I mean do you work with German club or you manage by yourself? Do you have any association as JGHV and hold the same exams for other gundog breeds in the UK? The JGHV has very detailed exams for all breeds of gundogs and I don’t think so other countries do the same exams as JGHV. Do you think that JGHV’s exams and rules are necessary and usefull for a gundog breed? Thanks |
||||||
| DesO'Neile |
I have only ever seen Lt.Col Peter Hawker's Diaries or his equally interesting, Instructions to Young Sportsmen in hard copy form. Try Googling them. | ||||||
| maxine mccullough |
Hi Sinan, No the JGHV are tests associated with the FCI - the UK Kennel Club whilst recognize the FCI do not follow their standards or testing system - we have our own field trials and working tests. We have no system in the UK governing what we can and can't breed from, there is no requirement here to have any sort of formal tests done before breeding. I think the VDD system is an excellent testing system, I think the system they have for documenting evidence of genetic breeding abnormalities is also excellent. The yearly stud book allows you access to every litter registered together with all problems recorded about each puppy tested, each stud dog etc., - including any temperament issues if they arise. Regards, Maxine |
||||||
| petermac |
Re: GWPs or DDs?
Hi Alex, The first dogs in the UK were not German Wirehaired Pointers, they were Drahthaars, mainly from Holland, descended from Drahthaars from Germany. The German Wirehaired Pointer is a UK version, created over many generations and as such banned from the Drahthaar breed pool in Germany. The same has happened in the USA between the AKC GWP and the VDD-GNA Drahthaar. They are not permitted to interbreed now. A couple of weeks ago the VDD came very, very close to pulling out of the FCI. Then the KC would probably have ruled that Drahthaars and their progeny would not be eligible to be registered in the UK as GWP's. That was all about a show vs working arguement in the FCI's priorities as I understand it. A 'UK standard' different to the original homeland standard for the breed in most of the rest of the world - and without a versatile testing regime linked to breeding rules - then they are, by that, effectively two separate breeds. I think that is why some UK HPR clubs (German Longhairs and Large Munsterlanders) are starting to take versatile testing more seriously, to get the Germans to accept that we can test and interbreed. We are fortunate at the moment, the Germans still tolerate us using VDD dogs to improve the quality of UK dogs, but that tolerance will not last for ever. If I had to choose, you can guess which side of the fence I will fall - Maxine on the other hand ...... who knows? 
We now have brought in 3 Dutch, 4 German and one Italian Drahthaar so far and you can expect to see some more this year. My biggest issue with UK tests is that it does not help the deer stalking community. They are an important group, shunned by the KC and need good dogs. The Drahthaar is the definitive and most popular deer stalkers dog in most of Europe and many of my dogs now go to stalkers. I would love to keep the breed together and so far have managed to do so, but with the docking law I believe that Sharon (Bareve) will not be docking, I guess Rory will and we will be as much as we can, so we will no longer be able to compete in a large number of key shows including Crufts with any Drahthaars. The split is going to come, really sad but the UK government are almost forcing that. |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
I'm very interested in this statement, Peter. How did they get the interbreeding stopped - did the German Club or the FCI set it up - we have a problem with the American Brittany as you know. BA |
||||||
| Helen |
Please can you continue this topic in this thread:
http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/ftopic1917-0-asc-60.php Thanks Helen |
||||||
| petermac |
Whats happening in Brittany's I am not up to speed there actually, but interested. In Drahthaars, the AKC has a different breed standard (which does not permit Schwartzschimmel (black and white) Drahthaars but does allow predominantly white ones - which the Germans do not like at all). AKC breeders were doing as Alex suggests, drawing on the VDD gene pool to improve their dogs. I am not sure about the details, but to cut a long story short when the VDD-GNA was formed (the VDD group for North America that follows the German system), the breeding regulations stopped any AKC lines being registered in the German system and VDD breeders will not generally sell pure bred Drahthaars to AKC GWP breeders, though that is not a VDD rule, I think they expect it - any VDD-GNA guys on here ??. The reason for this is the AKC , like the KC, does not police the German breeding regulations or operate the JGHV tests, they have their own testing systems. The Germans (and North American VDD breeders) do not want their lines 'polluted'. |
||||||
| BritAnnie |
I'll PM you Peter and Maxine re Brittanys | ||||||
| maxine mccullough |
OK Anne, Great, Will read with interest Maxine |
||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
Copy me in on that please Annie....it will save you having to tell me about it
|
||||||
| guy |
and me | ||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
She could write a book and give it to John to flog for club funds hey Guy
|
||||||
| guy |
well perhaps edited highlights. | ||||||
| Ghilliegumdrop |
No, the highlight would be the best bits 
|
||||||
| DesO'Neile |
I stumbled on this thread by accident. It so happens that I am just about to finish a season where I have shot over a continental retrieving Pointer. Toftens Chris is six years old. He has got his retrieving qualification for Aben Klasse and he has been run in trials both in Denmark and here in Ireland as well.
When it comes to shooting I know he was an experienced partridge and partmigan dog but nothing could have prepared the big dog for what he has been doing here in Ireland. He is hunting brambles and whinn bushes and his retrieving is a very helpful addition. he was a bit reluctant about the brambles at first but now it is a question of how to get him out of the brambles rather than how to get him in. I don't know that I could ever take Chris fowling as he is at best ambivalent about water, even thought to get his retrieving qualification he would have needed to complete a water retrieve however in all other respects he is a top quality dog. As a wee bonus he has sired a dual champion, DKCH,DKJCH, Astrup's Dirty Dancer. |
||||||
| Rob Clay |
Lt. Col. Peter Hawker's Diaries (both Vol I & II) and his Instructions to Young Sportsmen are out of copyright, as such they can be downloaded - complete and free of charge - from the following site. Search with the author's name in the "creator" field. If you download the pdf version, you will get electronic copy of the book, including all pictures/photos etc. http://www.archive.org/advancedsearch.php |
||||||
| Bernie |
GWPMODERATOR DID YOU REMOVE MY ENTRY THAT I PUT ON EARLIER TODAY,IF SO WHY? |
||||||
| josie |
Please check your messages: You have been sent a Private Message to explain why your post was removed. | ||||||
| sashalgwps |
Mods can we lock this thread? It was 'done to death' 12 months ago?
JMO Alex |
||||||
| josie |
Bernie, unfortunately I've had to delete your second post here too. I'm not sure why you chose to reply to my PM on a public thread. | ||||||
| josie |
My only concern with totally deleting the thread is that there's useful info on here and it seems a shame for us to lose that or to be unable to continue the more useful parts of the conversation by locking it. However, the thread will be monitored and action taken as needed. | ||||||