Mike
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Icy waterWe went along to our monthly training at Templecombe today and thought that the weather conditions presented far to good an opportunity to miss when it came to water work....
The lake had a good amount of ice on it and I hid a hen pheasant on one of the central islands whilst Harley was still tucked up nice and warm in the car.
The wind was quite chill (the car thermometer read 0 degrees C) but the wind chill must have been something below zero. To warm Harley up I hunted him up a longish field with some nice boggy bits in it and Harley half pointed and flushed a Snipe (and sat to flush  ) but scenting really wasn't very good (giving him the benefit of the doubt there as he bumped another couple and watched them away.
So on to the lake! 
Set him up nicely and he went out nicely but had some hesitation entering the water to swim when he realized how cold it was, with some fairly gentle urging he entered the water and was going great guns until he encountered the ice. I think the ice panicked him and he thought of returning empty handed but a stern "get on" sorted that out and he adopted a much higher position in the water and used his feet to smash the ice in front of him (which I thought was pretty good thinking on his behalf!) The rest of the retrieve contained no major drama's although he wasn't exactly keen to return but the island was surrounded by ice so he eventually returned by the route he went out. Lavish praise and some enthusiastic "reward" retrieves followed his return and then I asked him to retrieve a seen from the water (no need to go through the ice) no hesitation at all 
To keep him warm we then hunted him through a further three fields before calling it a day. By the time he returned to the car he was toasty and dry.
Considering all the problems I have had with Harley's swimming I am amazed that he managed to do a blind retrieve over a more or less frozen lake with little "pushing" and I am currently sat here with a big smile on my face. 
Have attached a photo, a real shame it isn't video because then you could have heard the ice cracking as he swam through it!
Click to see full size image
In case anyone is wondering why, I jut wanted to have some idea of what would happen if the water was in this condition at a trial and to know if it would even be worth attempting.
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windem bang
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Well done Mike !
Bill T.
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Greyghost
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Re: Icy waterGreat stuff Mike
| Mike wrote: | I am currently sat here with a big smile on my face.
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Ahh that'll be the alcohol kicking in then...... 
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Bareve
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Well done Mike - that was a good idea and I'm glad it went well for you both.
I did some water retrieves today just to keep the dogs upto speed on a real cold day. Kept them away from the icy end but we had 100% success too which was brilliant and with no sheep in his field I was able to "run" them virtually home which dried them off
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Greymaster
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Did you lob the hen pheasant onto the island Mike or did you paddle across to the island in your twinkle toes?
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BenB
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Result!
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Mike
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| Bastillian wrote: | | Did you lob the hen pheasant onto the island Mike or did you paddle across to the island in your twinkle toes? |
She flew for the first time in a year or so...
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josie
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That's great Mike & Harley.
On another subject, it can't be long now till the patter of not-so-tiny paws...?
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Lisa
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Well done Mike and Harley!! What a result, reminds me, I must get Blu back in somewhere, I'm not going through all that effort to get him in again this summer!! 
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windem bang
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Lisa, that might not be a good idea. You could put your youngster off water badly by sending it into icy water right now. Wait until March at the earliest before restarting - the end of April would be even better .......but once started keep it up this time right into the shooting season and try to get a few MARKED retrieves on fresh shot game from water if at all possible.
It is amazing how much keener dogs are to enter water in very cold conditions when they know it is a real bird out there and not a dummy !
I am lucky in that respect. One shoot I pick up on has a river,several ponds and a loch. This winter Buck has even jumped off the edge of ice into a ponds deeper water to catch a pricked duck and he has done some long swims out into the loch for pheasants too. Charlie went off the rocks into the sea for a lightly pricked pheasant last Friday as we picked up at another estate.
Neither dog is being pushed into doing these things, they really want to do it. I cannot remember giving either dog a water retrieve since about September using dummies.
If a dog is a bit uncertain about water retrieves then either do them in warm weather/water or on game fallen straight out of the sky.
Bill T.
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Lisa
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Thanks for that Bill . A very good point seeing how difficult it was to get him in!! Think I will book him into the local dog pool for the next couple of months!!
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windem bang
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Book him in for some game retrieves on a shoot with water ! Then sit back and see the difference !
Bill T.
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DesO'Neile
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There must be somebody on this forum who does enough HPR trials to have come across the "ice retrieve" in an event but I would doubt if a competitor would be asked to ececute such a retrieve in a trial.
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windem bang
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It would probably depend on the individual situation at a trial but two or three times now I have seen dogs have to break the ice at a ponds edge to go in for the water test retrieve. I have seen this even in novice trials.
It is unfortunately often the case that only that one piece of water is available at the trial.
I do not like this "test within a trial" at the end of a long day but if a competitor wants to win then his/her dog just has to swim even under those conditions.
Bill T.
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greylag
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i can only presume we are talking about very thin cat ice,if not your all mad or daft
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windem bang
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It is very thin ice that I am talking about in trials. Other than that the pond where my G.S.P. has gone in off the ice edge from thicker ice has one end clear where a little stream comes into it. He has an easy route in and out of the pond if he cares to use it.
I doubt if anyone on this forum would send a dog into a definite and known danger even to win a trial.
Bill T.
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DesO'Neile
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| Quote: | | I doubt if anyone on this forum would send a dog into a definite and known danger even to win a trial. |
and that is why I would doubt it would be asked for by a judge although it would depend on the thickness of the ice. It is the sort of thing more likely to be witnessed on a shooting day for a wounded bird, although a second barrel to finish off the bird an then leave it there might be the safest answer. I work near a usually fast flowing river and it is mentioned often that shots should not be taken if the bird will fall either in the river or over it. I would have thought that unless you are prepared to send your own dog onto ice you really shouldn't take the shot as a wasted bird is only marginally more acceptable than a wounded bird left to die.
Sorry if this went off topic, sort of.
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BritAnnie
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Way way back when John was trialling Gigi, we were at a trial where the guns shot the ice so that the water retrieve could be done. One of the two GSPs that went to the water went under the ice for a few seconds but both were OK apart from needing a good rub down.
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Mike
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I guess it is a valid point Des and I suppose it ties in with the thread the other day about jumping barbed wire fences in a trial. Personally having seen how Harley would cope with icy water I would be prepared to ask him to do it, I know he can do it. But even then if he was excessively tired or already cold (i.e. in a condition where I thought he would physically struggle) then I would politely decline. Same with jumping barbed wire fences, I know some expect and train their dogs to do it, I don't. Seeing how the cold water affected him I don't think it posed a big risk to him, I may be being naive but it simply didn't seem to have the negative impact I thought was possible (his panic at having to break the ice was IMHO because it was unexpected and new, I doubt he would react the same way again)
I know that trials are supposed to represent an average days shooting but I wonder if all risk is eliminated from them what impact it would have on breeds going forward? (I do understand that trials aren't the be all and end all for breeding choices but they must surely have some impact?)
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greylag
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you can never eliminate all dangers but dogs on ice is a non starter that is easily avoided. barbed wire is more of a problem as were going to meet with this most days.i dont think avoiding risks will affect the long term ability of a dog
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Mike
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Hi greylag, not sure where you are coming from. Are you talking about dogs retrieving from ice eg. a supposedly solid looking pond, so they may fall through with little chance of getting out? or are you talking about retrieving from water with ice in it? Whilst you are obviously entitled to your opinion, I am not sure why the second would be a problem to a healthy dog, obviously if it was then expected to sit wet in the freezing cold (especially a SH dog) that would be unreasonable but I don't see that preparing yourself (and your dog) for a test that could reasonably be asked for (and we know on ocassion it has) at a trial is a non-starter?
Also I wasn't talking about eliminating risks from tests that may be used to determine breeding potential as having an effect of an individual dog but rather effecting the breed over a number of generations, maybe meaning that softer dogs (or more cautious) are inadvertantly selected for. Just thinking out loud really
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Bareve
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| DesO'Neile wrote: | | There must be somebody on this forum who does enough HPR trials to have come across the "ice retrieve" in an event but I would doubt if a competitor would be asked to ececute such a retrieve in a trial. |
I've done water retrieves where either side of the water where the dog is expected to retrieve is frozen - such as yesterday the lake at Ampton was very frozen in lots of places. Unfortunately it is as Bill says the price you pay to get that piece of card at the end of the trial.
If you are duck shooting then more than likely you would end up putting one of those neoprene vests on your dog - can't see anyone subjecting a dog to repeated water retrieves from a part frozen water without helping the dog in some way. The last time we did a water retrieve from water that cold Freddy took about 10 mins before he could actually "pee"!!!
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Mike
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Does the Wirehair coat help much with cold water? Harley's short hair coat sometimes seems to be dense enough to be almost water proof, where as I wouldn't dream of putting his mum in cold water her coat is now so poor, at 11 and spayed, that it seems to soak up water. Is the undercoat more or less water proof in the correct Wirehair coat?
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Bareve
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| Mike wrote: | | Does the Wirehair coat help much with cold water? Harley's short hair coat sometimes seems to be dense enough to be almost water proof, where as I wouldn't dream of putting his mum in cold water her coat is now so poor, at 11 and spayed, that it seems to soak up water. Is the undercoat more or less water proof in the correct Wirehair coat? |
Yes it is Mike - in a true double coat with a noticeable undercoat. Far too many do not have a true double coat - top coats may be harsh and thick but when parted you can see right through to the skin.
One of the best undercoats we had on a dog was a dog that had quite a heavy coat (one that needed stripping out completely once a year) but his undercoat was so good you could never get the water to his skin. It was easier, when it came to the occasional bathing he needed, to put the shampoo on dry and work it into the coat and thereby you could then get the water to the skin.
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