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Mike

Interesting article on breeding for sound nerves

In Praise of Working Dog Temperament

Must admit that this article (the blue "clicky" above) and the quote below has made me reconsider a lot of what I "know" about "nerve" and its genetic component.


Quote:
As an example, friends I know who have been breeding working GSDs for 40
years have been using a puppy test for most of that time. Each pup in a
litter is tested individually on 3 separate occasions in an unfamiliar
environment by unfamiliar people. In part of this test a starter pistol is
fired near the pup, at that time only 6 weeks old. These breeders report
that is very unusual for working bred GSD pups to show more than a mild
initial startle response that they quickly bounce back from. The smoking
pistol is placed on the ground, and the behavior of the pup is observed
after that. What was inadvertently discovered is that dogs who grew up to
be outstanding SAR or detection dogs invariably approached and confidently
sniffed the smoking pistol. They report: "It's a fairly complex, problem
solving, behavior pattern for a 6 week old puppy: They hear the gun, alert
to the sound, curious; they smell the gunsmoke, they "reason" the two are
somehow connected; they follow the scent pattern, find the gun (which has
been put on the ground a few feet away); smell the gun, sometimes paw at
it; with a look of understanding that this is the noise source. Then ,
pleased with themselves, problem solved, off to other things!! These pups
have continued their problem solving scent work into adulthood and are the
most successful search dogs."

They say a more typical response of American show bred GSD pups in the same
puppy test was to run away in fear at the sound of the pistol firing, with
an extended period of recovery. Some didn't make it that far, as the test
had to be terminated when the pup was too fearful of being in a strange
environment.

This is a difference in nerve strength, evident even at 6 weeks of age. At
least in some breeds, sound nerves is a genetic trait and must be selected
for or else will gradually deteriorate over generations. What we call weak
nerves in a dog appear to be wary survival traits that can help keep a
non-domesticated animal alive in the wild.

Information provided by Laura Sanborn


Whilst I suspect a breeder may stand a very real chance of making an entire litter gunshy at six weeks I also really like the idea of pups at that age shrugging it off!
BritAnnie

After reading this and with a fair number of years behind me I think I'd stick to the noisy household while the pups are in the nest with pan lids banging on the floor, metal bowls thrown about etc etc.
BA
Rhimad

Whilst I suspect a breeder may stand a very real chance of making an entire litter gunshy at six weeks I also really like the idea of pups at that age shrugging it off!

I agree, you stand a chance of terrifying a whole litter, but saying that,  I was cleaning out our puppies kennels a couple of weeks ago...pups would be six weeks, they we all out and about in the garden,  in the field right next to our garden they were shooting pigeons and everytime a shot went off all 5 puppies stopped and looked for a few seconds and then carried on their game of beating up the Border Terrier pup this happened 2 or 3 times until 2 of the dog pups actually went across to the gate to have a closer look.... Maybe we should keep those two:lol:
Rhimad

We always make sure we make a lot of noise around our pups and I think it is the safest and probably kindest way to get young puppies used to noise.  I never get used to the noise of metal dog bowls clanging onto concrete or kitchen tiles.....It does my head in....I am noise shy but the pups will take on anything.
Mike

Rhimad wrote:
until 2 of the dog pups actually went across to the gate to have a closer look.... Maybe we should keep those two:lol:


It will certainly be interesting to hear how those two (if you can remember which two!) turn out.

Might be an idea to clarify what I meant by having changed my mind  Laughing I used to be very much of the opinion that gunshyness was created in a dog rather than an inherant characteristic (and I am certainly not advocating deliberately making six week old pups gunshy) but it seems to me that if the dogs are happy with the testing up to the point of the gunshot (which I assume isn't  excessively loud or close!) then it really would be a good test of nerve and another "useful" test for pups, I have no idea if any of the HPR breeds are "robust" enough to take this, although I suspect they are. Also I think I am correct in saying that at six weeks it occurs before the first fear imprint period?

So what I guess I am saying is that you are unlikely to make a "robust" dog gunshy regardless of what you do where as a dog with weak nerves could possibly be conditioned to accept gun fire but maybe it would be better not to breed from such a dog? But then I suppose that other evidence of the dog having weak nerves would come to light as well i.e. reluctance to face cover, excessive reaction and long recovery time to new situations and so on. But maybe it  would be a useful first indicator before wasting a year or two on training?

And yes our pups have always grown up with the sounds of everyday life around them, the whelping box being in front of the washing machine and Rayburn assured it!
Rhimad

The two that showed interest in the gunfire are the two we have left so we are probably keeping one and I will certainly try to keep taps on the other one, it will be interesting to see how they turn out.

We have been lucky with all our wires, and never had any problems with gunshy, even the two that we didnt get until they were 18 months old and hadnt been exposed to gunfire.
josie

This doesn't sound very different to the more standard puppy aptitude tests, where an open umbrella is chucked on the floor or something is dropped which makes a loud noise.  Again, these are scored as the puppies which come forward to investigate being the more promising prospects.  The whole gun thing doesn't sound like it has any benefit to it as compared to another loud noise and does run the risk of scaring the less confident puppies and putting them off gunshot forever LOL!
Linda W

I have a friend that does the puppy test on all her pups (I've actually done a couple for her) I didn't believe that it would tell me anything that we didn't already know, but it's amazing what does show up. Pups can be brave with other pups around, but put them on their own and the true nature comes through.

My last litter, born in May, were outside playing quite a lot when the gas guns would go off (great reason living out in the countryside beside crops  Wink ) and they all stood and stopped what they were doing. A couple ran indoors but came back out again, eventually. They did get used to the noise after a few times, but I didn't let them go to working homes. The ones that stood and went to the fence were the ones that are in working homes, and doing well, so far...  Very Happy
windem bang

I'm inclined to agree with Josie, a gunshot fired without warning from a few feet away would make me flinch never mind a puppy. Another way of looking at this would be that the pups that showed no fear were too stupid to recognize a possible threat. I'd think this test must be being done close to the pups or the pup would be unable to make any connection between the bang and the pistol laid on the ground. It is quite possible that there is no connection made anyway, the pups are simply curious of this object placed there and so investigate it.

If I had a litter of gundog pups and a prospective buyer wanted to do this test my reply would be unprintable and he wouldn't be staying long anywhere near my pups!

Bill T.
Mike

Bill,
I am quiet suprised at your respone to that TBH. When I was reading the article and the note I thought this might be something that would align with your way of thinking, with your belief that hard mouth for example is down to breeding it doesn't seem such a huge leap to think that good nerves are down to breeding as well. The suggestion that pups would be too stupid to recognise a possible threat doesn't seem reasonable when the desired response would be initial suprise followed by curiosity as opposed to no response at all.

I also think possibly the wrong impression is being created here i.e. that someone whips out a pistol over the head of the pups and fires it, where as it says quiet clearly that the pups are being assessed along the way and the person assesing them will call a stop to it if the pup is showing fear for being in a new environment for example.
josie

I just don't see the benefit of using a pistol as compared to, say, er, dropping a baking tray at one end of the room and seeing which pups go and check it out...?
Mike

Because it is a more extreme test, that's my take on it anyway. I suppose they are pretty sure that most of the pups in a working GSD litter will pass less extreme tests and are looking to find the best candidate's for ongoing training?

I think Allyson said quiet a long time ago that the problem with some of the tests is that always be sure of the response you are seeing, is it a lack of reaction due to stupidity or familiarity or strong nerves? As an example dropping a baking tray wouldn't create a huge reaction at six weeks (likely reaction would be nine hungry mouth legging it over to see what else I had dropped on the kitchen floor  Rolling Eyes ) from our pups because they were continually exposed to kitchen type noises even prior to whelping, so for the pups in our last litter what would it tell you? But take a litter raised in a quiet out building and I guess a baking tray being dropped would potentially be very scary? Having said that I suppose you might get a different reaction if they were alone and in an unfamiliar environment.

Just thinking out loud now  Laughing
windem bang

I think this test , if it works, takes testing further than I want to go. Yes, I think hard mouth is often down to breeding but I depend on the breeder breeding from a soft mouthed bitch mated to a soft mouthed sire for as many generations as possible to achieve the soft mouthed pups.

To my mind this test,used on a litter of gundog pups, could ruin a perfectly good puppy for life. My rather old fashioned hard outlook on dog training stops short of doing that. A 6 week old pup is a baby, I give babies the chance to grow up a bit physically and mentally before deliberately subjecting them to a test as traumatic as this one may be.

As with hard mouth I think it is a breeders responsibility to mate a non gunshy or gunnervous bitch to a dog of the same virtue. I'll take my chances of a pup from a litter bred in that way. I've had spaniels, labs, brittanies and G.S.P.'s as purpose bred gundogs over the years - quite a good few dogs, not one of them has been gunshy. The nearest I've come to that is two dogs I've had that loved shooting including heavy gunfire at driven shoots but which did not like the "crack" from a dummy launcher.
These two pups would have failed the pistol shot test yet they were perfectly good gundogs, one of them was an Open Retriever Stake Winner.

With this test you could be throwing out the babies along with the bathwater.

Bill T.

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