Interesting Genetics article

Mike · Interesting Genetics article

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/12/frontpage/dogs.php

Shocked

Very suprising looking Whippet!

Ghilliegumdrop

Flipping heck Mike, do you reckon it's been at the spinach Question

Jan

josie

Yuck!

windem bang

I really must be getting old, I just feel a deep feeling that doing this is wrong. Just because we can do it does not mean we must do it.

Personally I would get no satisfaction from winning a trial, a race or anything else with a dog so scientifically genetically enhanced. I would feel I was cheating.

This kind of breeding would be expensive. The ordinary "man in the street" would be less able or unable to afford to purchase these pups and our sport would suffer as only the wealthy could take part in any gundog test or trial with a real hope of winning.

This kind of genetically improved dog could easily result in a further split in gundogs - and in who can afford to own what.

I haven't thought all this out very clearly, I can only repeat that I have a deep feeling that doing this is wrong.

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

Must say I agree with you Bill, not only that what the devil are they trying to prove Question

Jan

windem bang

Hi Jan,

If this is not a hoax and what I have read is true then they are not trying to prove anything. They are trying to make money by breeding freaks that can win on a race track.

The mighty dollar rules all.
Makes me sick.

Bill T.

Mike

Whoa there Mr. Bang!

What is interesting (from my point of view anyway!) is the reaction this article has drawn, very similar to the comments on the articles website infact.

Firstly Bully Whippets do exist, however whether all of them end up looking like the canine equivalent of the incredible hulk is open to further investigation. The effect exists in humans (a German boy who must be approaching 8 is the first documented case. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/ ) and it exists in Cattle, the Belgian Blue being a "fine" example of an entire breed with this defect.

The genetic mutation effectively takes the upper limit away from muscle size, it would appear the more protein these dogs are fed the bigger they get. Assuming the original picture is unedited the owners of that dog (if they knowingly gave it excessive protein) are without a doubt being cruel!

Secondly the assumption seems to be that
a) breeders have deliberately worked towards the bully whippets, nothing could be further from the truth, they are the ultimate example of why breeding the best to the best isn't always the best plan. When they discovered these suprising individuals in their litters they called in the scientists to find out why, with a view to stopping it (I believe I am correct in saying that this "condition" can be quiet uncomfortable for the dogs and in most cases they where dipped at birth, although I can't actually find that article now) The scientists identified that if a dog carried two copies of this genetic gene you got the bully whippets. However (and this is the kicker) the really fast non-bully whippets are carriers with a single copy of this gene, so breeding two carriers (i.e. the really fast dogs) gave rise to the appearance of the bully whippets.

b)There seems to be an assumption "science" helped this happen, again this is fundamentally incorrect. "science" is trying to help breeders avoid this.

I am not having a pop at anyone, I am just trying to highlight that the breed the "best to the best" paradigm isn't always the way to go.

windem bang

So will the breeders of the race whippets producing this mutation, cease breeding from their line of dogs or will they continue because they are willing to accept an odd gross mutation for the sake of their puppy sales and probable race track wins? The pups with only the one gene contributing to this would be valuable animals.
I'll wait and see on this one but I'll be surprised if human nature and human greed doesn't triumph.

Bill T.

josie

So Mike, what we're saying is that they need the bully whippet gene carried to produce the fastest normal whippets, but you don't know if this gene is carried if it is recessive, and when you breed 2 carriers together (as you would if they were 2 of the fastest whippets) it will be expressed and you will get a bully whippet...?

I remember there being a conversation some time ago about white markings on Weims and there was one theory that we shouldn't breed out these white markings because they are part of what makes the silver a light silver and not a darker grey. And that because the white markings are seen as undesirable, we are getting darker dogs. (No idea if all that is true, I'm just summarising it.)

In fact, I think this all goes back to chocolate. A little chocolate is a good thing. A little of the bad is good. Ta da!

Helen S

I hope this is the right place to post this - on the subject of genetics and colour. I saw some silver labradors advertised the other day, bet they're not registered! Never heard of them before, would they have had a Weim great grandparent by any chance?

Helen S

Helen S

I take back what I just said. I spoke before checking the facts, I hope I didn't offend anyone.

www.nzsilverlabs.com

The website explains it all.

Helen S

windem bang

Hi Helen, I first heard of silver labs only a few weeks ago myself. I understand they are just another fashion fad that we may eventually regret. I have myself seen and trained black, tan and white labs looking not only in colour but also in type, a bit like a miniature rottweiller. Purebred labs can throw up some odd colours and coat types long, short, wavy, straight with good undercoat and without.

This is not surprising considering breeds such as pointer, flatcoat and border collie were almost certainly used to "improve" the original labs arriving in this country.

Bill T.

Helen S

The sire of the litter I saw advertised looks rather like the Chesapeake Bay Retrievers I see at our gundog club. It is the rounded head, low set ears and pale eyes along with the almost curly coat.

See the website. It is quite interesting what they have to say, I only wish I had thought to investigate before making off the cuff comments without thinking.

Helen S

windem bang

I've read the website and I'm not against silver labs of this type but I'd much rather have one of the original silvers, the American field trial type!
I don't really think the show bred labs will come to much harm from the introduction of silver coat working strain but I'm not so sure the reverse is true. If I was wanting a working dog I wouldn't buy one of these English showbred crosses. The show labrador is for show people, few of them can work at all never mind work to any great standard. I know, I still train, or try to train a few of them!

Don't worry too much about having made a wee mistake, I've been doing that all my life !

Bill T.

Mike

Helen,
With regards silver labs, I think your original premise is probably closer to the truth, just because it says otherwise on a website trying to justify ignoring a breed standard and who have a vested interest in selling these non-conforming pups doesn't make it true!!! They make all the usual claims about haveing field bred dogs in the pedigree, but also emphasise how striking and rare the dogs are Evil or Very Mad

We have a very similar problem in blue Weimaraners (black dilution dogs as opposed to brown dilution dogs of the "standard" Weim). But at least with blue Weims it can be bred out in a generation with no chance of it suddenly reappearing down the line.

A bigger problem here IMHO is by actively selecting for colour alone you can be assured that other things are not being actively selected for (i.e. health, working ability) and as grey is a recessive trait you will be choosing from a very limited gene pool. I'd be very suprised if these "rare" grey dogs don't command a premium (and as WB pointed out earlier is a pretty good motivator for us humans!)

Ghilliegumdrop

When up in the Lake District a few months ago we saw a Weimar that was marked just like a Dobe. The tan was in the usual place ie; eyebrows, up the front legs and under the tail. When I asked if the dog was a pedigree I was assured that it was and the whole litter had the same markings and, what is more, he had the papers to prove it Exclamation

.
I was at Cruft's several years ago and went past the lab benches and saw a row of dogs that all looked just like Vietnamese Pot Bellied Pigs. The heads were big , the muzzles were squashed and their bodies [what you could see of them] were fat on short legs. thank goodness for the working labs.
Jan

windem bang

It is a sad state of affairs when so many people in showing and working now think a well bred working lab. is better looking than a show one.
For myself I think the working people have simply kept to the basics of the breed a lot better.
I sometimes look at photographs of the last of the dual champion labs, dogs such as Knaith Banjo and think that's what a lab should look like. Nothing is exaggerated, what is there needs to be there. I.M.O. that is where the show people nearly always go wrong- they think that more must be better with no real knowledge of what the dog is actually supposed to do.

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

Hey I'm just one person and I don't judge so what the heck I'm probaly totally wrong and thats what they should look like Twisted Evil

Jan

windem bang

Hi Jan, you are not on your own on this one. Over the last few years, some show judging friends of mine have expressed similar sentiments about what labs. have turned into. (Yes Jan, believe it or not , I still have a show judge friend or two Surprised

They must be gluttons for punishment, poor souls Exclamation

)

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

Well put it this way, I certainly wouldn't buy one [even if I wanted anything other that a brittany] Laughing

Jan
Is Annie one of your judging friends then Question

tashap

jan i don't suppose you asked the ped name of the mismarked weim did you??? These litters usually get disposed of to the pet market so they are difficult to trace.

Ghilliegumdrop

I didn't get that far Tashe, I will say that he was a lovely looking dog and apart from the tan markings would not have disgraced the show ring. Super temperment as well.
Jan

windem bang

Hi Jan, I wasn't counting Annie, the others are perfectly normal non Brittany people Twisted Evil

Bill T.

Helen S

Am I right in thinking I have seen a "blue" dobermann? I'm not saying that is what Jan saw at all but it just jogged my memory.

Thanks WB and Mike, but the reason I was annoyed with myself about my off the cuff comments was that if someone had made ignorant comments about something I had taken pains to learn/develop, it would really annoy me. If I had made an educated criticism then it would have been different!

Helen S

Ghilliegumdrop

There was a Showcase on Dobe's in the Dog World recently and the colours include blue, fawn and, would you belive, white?
The people with this dog definately said it was a weimar [with a pedigree to prove it] and it did look typical except for the markings and they looked OK as well. They said that they had been told by the breeder that the markings crop up now and then because of the breeds behind the breed [if you see what I mean] and she had a waiting list for dogs like theirs! I've never seen another one like it so perhaps it doesn't happen that often. Forgot to ask what they paid for it. Perhaps there is room for a new bit in the standard Twisted Evil

Jan
PS Bill no-one who has a Brittany is or could be perfectly normal, this is a contradiction in terms.......and any one getting a second after living with Ghill for years is totally and utterly mad Twisted Evil

Personally I put it down to getting the pension.

BritAnnie

josie

Yes, the Dobe markings are known to occur very rarely in Weim litters. (I was waiting for Tasha or Mike to reply as I think they'd know more about this than me, but in their absence offer up that snippet of info!).

Ghilliegumdrop

Thanks Josie, I was beginning to think [that's unusual in itself] that I was being told a whopper. How often is this type of colour marking cropping up because from what the guy was saying the breeder had them often enough to have a waiting list? Where/why and how does it appear?
Jan

josie

It's a non-standard colour and I'm sure would be an eliminating fault in the breed standard. Dogs with this colour shouldn't be bred from and the guy shouldn't have a waiting list of people who want one.... (not if he's anything approaching responsible).

Ghilliegumdrop

Well I guess its a bit like white Boxers, if its 'rare' then its expensive so more are bred and the money rolls in etc etc self perpetuating Exclamation

There is someone near to me who breeds white GSDs and does no testing and doesn't register them either so there can be no comeback from the KC or breed clubs. Same with the boxers, the woman who breeds those near here has had epilepsy, HD and various other things reported to her, she has been thrown out of several clubs because of her disregard for health issues AND still she is breeding them [and joe public is buying] because they are RARE white boxers and she can and is making a fortune charging double what she gets for the normal colours.
Jan
PS That's my rant for the day Laughing

tashap

its certainly not a colour in the standard and we get a range of them from peached marks which sometimes disappear as the grow up to a peaches and cream marked points that stay with the dog for life just depends on the line and whats in the pedigree. Its genetic but difficult to identify carriers unless a pup appears. I'm slowly collecting data though.

Regarding the Blue there should only be silver weimaraners blue is only recognised in the states although i do understand that there is a french breeder who has also her her dogs recognised as within the normal colour range.

Within both the dobermann and weimaraner breeds breeding practises in the US have had a significant effect on the colour range all of which are faults Dobermann should be liver and tan and black and tan certainly not white, there was an instance of a white dobermann breeders house being set on fire because of the breeds wish not to have this fault bred, an extreme I hope other breeds haven't gone to.

The one thing that I find difficult to understand is why the american kennel club will register a dog no matter what the colour it is, even when its impossible to get those particular colours so they must be the result of a cross breed mating. There is one record of a weimaraner being bred to a lab, the resulting puppies were black and registered as weimaraners with a weimaraner sire that was proven to be incorrect the pups were still allowed to be registered until someone in the club made a complaint but there have been others that have remained registered.

In the Uk the kennel club will register a dog with an american pedigree registration so any problems that might have been able to be removed through the exporting of these dogs is then passed on.

BritAnnie

The Kennel club will register whatever the breeder puts on the form imo. They don't seem to check the colours as expected in their own standards. Our Brittany standard says "Orange/white, liver/white, black/white, tri-colour, or roan of any of these colours" but the KC once registered a litter as 'red and white'; and have also been known to register 'liver tricolour', which we do have but there are other tricolour variations as well but they are not specified separately in either our standard or the French one.
Annie

windem bang

I used to know a lady who in order to sell lovely dark eyed,dark nosed longhaired pure white "German Shepherds" did a bit of judicious breeding involving a Samoyed or two. If what I'm told is true, she sold them as pure breds until someone shopped her to the K.C.

Didn't see much of her after that!

Bill T.

Ghilliegumdrop

Been a bit of that around in the past [and the present] Twisted Evil

Jan

Mike

spettadog

Hi there

Just thought Id add to this. A guy in West Lothian has just purchased a silver lab from the states. Rumour has it that he isnt very happy with it. Breeds a lot this guy. Every time I see him he has a troop of bitches that have just whelped!!! Sad day!!!

Annie

tashap

not sure about bully whippets but having been cycling with the dogs recently the muscles on them can get larger and more defined they do disappear though after a month or so though if you don't keep up the exercise.