| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Alkemist |
Is anyone monitoring tail damage and amputations in hprs?It has become necessary for one of Anyas pups (pet home) to be docked aged almost 11 months old. There is another pup in the litter showing regular tail damage and it may have to be docked. That only leaves one left undamaged. The main problem is not 'working' or lack of it, but simply that these pups are very very happy waggy pups who are damaging their tails just being happy
I am disgusted tbh that this situation is still unchallenged, so before I write off to whoever with the wrong facts, please can someone tell me if there is a central effort to log these things or a common route to take action? Looks wise the pet owner has come to love the dogs tail but is taking the decision to opereate based on vets advice, from a vet in NI (who loved the fact that Finn had his tail) who is seeing increasing tail damage since the UK ban. They have tried everything to heal the tail but it just isn't working. I have asked for letters from the vet and from the owner of the dog being docked. I am hoping that someone out there can help me, I really think this is sickening, for a pup aged 11 months to have to undergo surgery for simply being a happy dog. Thanks in advance, Nina |
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| DesO'Neile |
For generations now the breeders of HPR's haven't had to worry about the proportons/looks of their dogs' tails as the vast majority of them have been docked. In Pointers there is a "Pump handle " tail that appears from time to time but other than that just about anything goes but the "Bee sting" tail is still the most desireable.
Now that tails will be left undocked there are bound to become an issue that will have to be dealt with by judicious breeding. For all you know the best/most successful show dogs may have poor tails but just about any issue like this can be resolved over a few generations of considered breeding. |
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| Bareve |
Sue Pitman with the GSP's is collating information on tail damage - especially those who have gone onto to be amputated. We've heard that two of our litter from last year has had to have their tails amputated and we are at the moment collecting information and photos.
Disappointed with Des's comments...... Great if there is such a short tail available in HPR's to breed to and thereby eventually reduce the tail length and when will people stop relating HPR's to the type of work and working attitude of "Pointers" 
As breeders we do take things seriously but as I said a) there isn't a short tail gene in HPR's that I know of b) health, working ability and type is probably higher on my priority list than a short tail. |
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| Mike |
During the consultation period with DEFRA prior to the docking ban I asked who would be recording tail damage, the response was that it wasn't expected to be necessary. On pressing them further and asking who they would accept tail damage reports from the response was that the BVA or RCVS where the only organizations from which this evidence would be acceptable, when I pointed out that both organizations where fundamentally opposed to tail docking full stop and would therefore be highly unlikely to collect this information the reply was that it wasn't likely to be a problem...
Whilst having Fi hip scored on Sunday we were told anecdotally (by the vet doing the x rays and some of the vet nurses) that Weimaraner's seem to be particularly susceptible to tail damage (they had noticed Fi was docked and were asking questions). As for going for a short tail gene Dr Bruce Cattanach proved that was perfectly possible to introduce the short tail gene into boxers and be breeding boxers true to type within four (?) generations. I believe he lost interest when he found the short tail didn't breed true, although he did identify a plan to have it breed true (as it does in some breeds) but a lack of interest in the boxer community put paid to that idea. All of this was done with the KC sanction and I think I am correct in saying that he found no incidence of deformed spines etc. amongst dogs born with short tails. |
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| Alkemist |
Thanks Sharon I will certainly pass on everything to Sue Pitman I have just received pics and I have requested a letter from the vet and the owner, I will also copy the RCVS and my MP and possibly the plonker that pushed this through, Ben someone or other I think, I'll find it somewhere. Also the KC for info I think.
Mike I reckon it has a lot to do with tail covering too (which was why I was suprised that you had experiences with this Sharon, I thought the hairs would help). I'm not sure whether to be disappointed about the comments Des, I understand that this is something new that if it is going to be tackled and bred for should be do-able within a couple of generations, it's just that I seem to remember hearing that argument from the antis when they were coming up with their reasons why we should stop docking. And this is an example where we tried to go along with the bill and look whats happening, the poor wee dogs are suffering, not us, not the antis. I know the owner will be OK, he's a good owner and I'm really proud of him to be honest, I'm just worried how this is going to affect his really happy young dog. |
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| Mike |
Ben Bradshaw is the MP.
One thing that is bugging me is the vets that do dock who are adding extra requirements over and above the AWB. |
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| Mike |
INterestingly whilst hunting around for the current DEFRA requirements (they have changed there website again breaking all the links on the BASC and RCVS websites  another great use of our taxes) I found this relating to Scotland:
Which seems to suggest that in Scotland at least they will consider CDB submitted evidence. |
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| cressy |
I am interested here as I have had a WSS who was docked who experienced bramble damage, my deerhound who would never have been docked has split his tail as he thinks like a gundog and launches into deep bramble cover and my current foster is a full tailed weim and she whacks her tail everywhere.
With luck my foster will do more field training while she stays once she is over her season but I am a tad worried about her lovely strong tail as she uses it loads. My ickle breton remains the only dog I can be sure won't damage his tail! It is such an emotive issue that I hope all comment can remain constructive. |
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| BritAnnie |
Sharon, didn't you know that Allez is a natural bob-tail? I thought you did? There are quite a number of naturally short-tailed Brittanys. The Kennel Club allow the word 'bobtail' to be included in their registration documents if correctly certificated. I also have a bobtail bitch, Belle, from top working lines in France, who is about to whelp 6 pups, of which I would expect 50% to have short tails(the sire was docked, but his litter brother is a bobtail, so it is just possible he is also a short tail in which case the percentage would theoretically increase to 66.7%). The gene does not just cause a bobtail. It can cause any length of tail up to two digits short of a full tail. So, many dogs will have been docked which carry the gene. Brittany breeders are also now importing new bobtial stock from France. Dr Cattanach came to our weekend last year and gave us a very informative lecture on the short -tail gene. The bobtail has appeared in two Cocker litters that I know of. One here in Scotland a few years ago and another in Ireland earlier this year. Friends of mine have a rescue Springer which they now work. She has had her tail amputated at 2 years because of continual damage. Their vet's disgruntled comment was "should have been done at birth, saved the poor bitch this trauma" |
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| Bareve |
Sorry Annie I wasn't meaning Britts because they have, as you say, natural bob tails. I was meaning the other HPR breeds that have full "normal" tails and it's all very well breeding to naturally short tails if they are there to start with.
Perhaps we should start a "mixed" breeding experiment with Border Terriers as they have nice short tails. Just imagine the "dog anti's" getting wind of breeders deliberately breeding mixed breed litters just to fix a trait that "Joe public" don't even think causes a problem!!!!!!! |
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| Mike |
Surely that is exactly the way it should be being tackled in our PC world? 
Isn't it exactly the method that all the breed founders would have used? i.e. dog x has a desirable trait so let's use it? Even the KC where prepared to let Dr Cattanach do it for boxers. To my mind if it is considered a problem (i.e. long tails) surely the better method is to breed a short tail than cut the excess off, even Joe public can see the sense in that. Hope I am not coming across as anti docking, never owned a full tailed dog and not planning on doing so in the future and was present when our litters have been docked but it just seems to me that if a gene could be introduced in those breds where i isn't present then that surely would be a good thing. |
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| Tracy |
We have an imported gwp from Holland with a shorter tail, it is a couple of inches shorter than our undocked pup. In Candy's litter there were several pups with shorter tails. Not sure whether the breeder was trying to breed shorter tails. Magic our male's (also imported from Holland) tail is also shorter than his daughters.
Tracy Hoping to do some working with our undocked pup, who seems to wag and bang her tail constantly, so far no damage but we will see. |
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| BritAnnie |
Well I have been offered quite a large sum to use Allez on a working springer bitch(no problem for registration they said as they have a springer stud dog anyway and would just register pups as his since they are similar. ) I know there is someone deliberately breeding 'Bringers' somewhere in England but I have principles and refused point blank.
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| weima |
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| weima |
The Weimaraner Club of Scotland are collecting information too. I think there may be a form on their website. | ||||||||||
| Bareve |
No problem Mike - you're not coming across as anti docking in my opinion 
However I find it difficult enough to find the right sort of homes for our wirehairs - where they are understood and live with families who can cope with their, at times, high maintenance attitude. Therefore the thought of producing "many" litters of mixed breeds in an attempt to fix a trait "scary". Yes Dr Cattanach did it but he did it with a breed that already had a fairly decent following of people prepared to buy puppies - who may or may not look like the breed they originally wanted "or" he did the other which I could NOT do to a healthy puppy He probably also had the facilities to keep those he wanted for future breedings but I wouldn't. We all have limited time/facilities and even if the KC decided that "breeders" could go down that route - who then decides which breeder does it as they wouldn't want everyone doing it?
We have two full tails from the litter we produced last year (from a bitch who genuinely does not work). Both tails reach the hock and in my opinion are not that long - both have been damaged. The one damaged her tail quite high up (for which we have been accused of having her tail fixed which is a laugh because even if we could have found a vet to do that we wouldn't have done just the one bitch we would have done them both !!) and the other one has had two sessions of dead tails following swimming sessions. Another dog has a tip damaged quite badly and it's being watched closely - another has also damaged the tip but seems to be OK since. Two have had serious damage to tips with concerns about sceptacemia (sp) and both have, with a lot of arguing from their owners, been amputated. At least at this moment in time we can still use the option to dock, at a cost determined by Vets, and there seems to be breeders still doing this with the breeds that can be legally done. What now needs to be done is for show societies to start and consider those legally docked breeds and allow the changes to their show organisation decisions to take place so that these dogs can also be legally shown...... or the KC can make the same allowance they have just done for the docked agility dogs 
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| Bareve |
I hope that she doesn't do any damage to her tail Tracy
I do agree that the Dutch dogs do seem to have a shorter tail and it seems that it's not just the "odd" dog but the Dutch dogs don't seem to have the other qualities/traits I would want to introduce "just" because they have a shorter tail. |
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| Bareve |
Yes I meant to ask Mike what did this mean? |
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| Alkemist |
It's not the outside working environment thats causing the problems with this dog, its the dogs every day life:( Wagging his tail, he's hitting stuff, splitting the end of his tail, which just will not heal. Suprisingly the vet has actually suggested the dock, and the full dock, which I am in agreement with.
What really is a shame is that I sent 2 of this litter to genuine working homes but I couldn't produce shotgun licences when neither of these people have them, yet both worked their dogs And I have to decide on the option of another litter but I am a little bothered about not being able to dock.... and I don't see how I am going to get to a position where I can breed shorter tails and thicker tails as there are very few dogs with tails mature enough to be used at stud.
We have tried before to get our dogs worked but we've never really had much luck getting past the first stages. I think Anya may be a bit old now but I think if the only option we have is to go down the route of working our dogs and getting a shotgun licence we will have to try (as she begs out loud lol - any helpers?). We thought about this last year and were going to apply for a licence and not get a gun but then we heard that you couldn't do this. I've contacted a local 'opposition' councillor today who was very very sympathetic and is very keen to help. He's going to get me Ben Bradshaws opposite numbers details. I was mega suprised, they even suggested contacting the local press but I am a bit worried about doing that in this day and age, our neighbours don't know much about our dogs and we don't advertise it - always worried about thefts you see (mind you sometimes I could give the little madam away lol). I also rang the KC, but they just referred me to the CDB email address.... Nina 
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| weima |
If you have a litter of pups even if you don't work your dogs all you need is a letter from a perspective owner stating they intend to work the puppy. I know of a few people in Weimaraner who don't work their dogs but got letters from the owners & the vet docked the pups.
You can apply for a shotgun certificate & not have a gun as many have done |
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| Bareve |
I no longer have a shot gun certificate but I had a letter from the shoot captain, letters from the puppy people saying they intend to work and my puppy contract included the fact that the puppies had been sold to homes as a working gundog.
We've changed our vet as our long standing vets (for over 30 years) were not interested in docking and we've found a vet more than happy to dock providing you have the paperwork as above. As for the tail damage on our pups - only one of those is actually working. The majority of the damage so far has been around the house/garden/exercising generally. |
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| Mike |
What I mean is this:
Vets are asking for letters from future owners yet the AWB and the SI don't have this requirement. They have a requirement for the owner to provide the a statement stating:
Obviously at the time of docking the owner is the breeder and the intention is of the SI is only that the dog is likely to be used in a working role, DEFRA fully accept that some dogs that are docked will go to non-working homes and as far as they are concerned the only requirement beyond that is that they aren't shown at shows that the public pay to enter. Now I admit it is not difficult to generate a number of letters to cover all the pup but fundamentally it isn't a requirement of the statutory instrument. I only have a bee in my bonnet about it currently because one of our bitch owners is doing the ground work for a litter at the moment and coming up against this from her vet. I am going to drop DEFRA a line and see if they have changed there advice on this matter. |
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| DesO'Neile |
Where did I say anything about a short tail? Now that a lot more dogs will not be docked there are bound to be lines that have tails that will be predisposed to damage. Obviously, I would have thought, breeders will favour dogs from lines that aren't prone to damage in an attempt to lessen the possible damage to their pups sterns. I have only ever seen one dog that wasn't docked and had tail damage. He was my own Prince of Darkness and he didn't do it working he did it in the run behind the garage where one side of the run was the red brick gable end of the garage. All the other dogs that I have seen with tail damage were spaniels of one sort or another and had alrerady been docked. What am I supposed to draw from that? That some people don't know how to dock? |
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| weima |
But Mike for my litters I produce the documents to say I work my dogs which I get from the shoot keeper & don't provide any other documents.
Are you saying the owner of this bitch her vet won't dock her litter? I thought the bitch was worked? |
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| Mike |
The vet will dock but has asked for letters from all the pups future owners stating that they will be worked. As only two are currently spoken for that will be tricky to achieve! What you are outlining (document from the keeper) is exactly how I expect the system to work and how the statutory instrument is worded. Yes the bitch is worked.
What I don't understand is why a vet that is willing to dock is adding requirements over and above those required by law. |
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| weima |
A lot of vets still don't understand the requirements that's why Some will only dock the amount of pups that letters are provided for not the whole litter so at 3 days old you have to decide which pups are suitable for working.
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| Alkemist |
Well if anyone can point me in the direction of a vet that will take letters from the owners and me I'd be grateful, I did enquire but was asked for more than that unfortunately.
Talked to the owner of the dog last night, it's a shame. He's having to ask friends not to call, because Finn is wagging when people come in and he's hurting himself. Tales of cars and houses covered in blood, dreading coming down the stairs, knowing that the dog is going to be ecstatic to see him and he's going to wag and get hurt quite sad really.
Thanks everyone for posting, it's really good to hear all the different experiences and situations where you all are. Nina Update, just called my vet, explained the situation, offered letters for every pup, and offered to pay for microchip and certification, the receptionist was sympathetic, the vet clearly in the beckground gave a resounding 'no'. wouldn't even point me in the direction of someone that could help. |
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| weima |
You need to ask BASC to put you in touch with a vet who will dock near you failing that you may have to travel to a vet | ||||||||||
| BritAnnie |
And that's one of the worst things about this stupid law - trailing newborns around the country to get heir tails docked! 
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| Alkemist |
Thanks Claire, I'll try ringing Basc today for advice.
I am in a right nark now as I just rang the Royal college who lied to me on the telephone and stated that Weimaraners were not a working dockable breed and that docking is unethical whatever the law says. Oh if only I could swear online!! I actually thought a professional body could behave professionally, never mind, I can be a bit dim like that sometimes
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| weima |
The docking law didn't make that happen it was happening long before that. People would travel a few hours with newborn pups to get them docked because their own vet wouldn't. |
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| Alkemist |
Alas, BASC have been helpful in finding me the right dept thanks for the direction Claire.
I have trailed around before to get the right vet for the job
After asking at my usual vet though and the answer I got I might have to find a new vet :s |
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| Lynn |
http://www.cdb.org/tail_damage_report.htm
CDB appear to still be collecting data with regard to tail damage? Also they used to keep a list of Vets who would Dock. Worth a try |
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| Mike |
Nina, at the time the ban in England was introduced I was conversing with a lady from Sweden (President of the Weim club IIRC) and she has painted all of her kitchen walls a deep red colour so as not to show the blood from tail damage Looking at one Swedish import you can see that the tail is quiet different from an undocked UK tail but even after 20 years of the ban they still haven't been able to breed a robust enough tail for the cover they hunt in.
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| münstermanager |
Nina
I am sure I saw some contraption for damaged tails to allow them to heal. It was a sort of puffy tube with straps around it and the contraption went over the back of the body so that it could not be wagged off. I can't remember where I saw it, but I wondered if it would work at the time. My first LM's sister damaged her tail just wagging it furiously. My friend used to find her kitchen covered in blood quite regularly - up the walls and over the units etc etc. I thought cutting or docking a tail that wouldn't heal was dodgy as it can 'just not heal' closer to 'the point of no return'. Is this not so? I remember that Beecham's brother injured his working (that litter were not tipped) and the vet wanted to amputate a bit of it, but was persuaded not to do so, I think. It did heal eventually, but took forever. If I remember where I saw that tail damage contraption, I'll let you know. Sue |
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| Alkemist |
Sue, I'd appreciate knowing, because there will still be 2 pups that might need it at some point, but there is no going back for Finn now I think. They have tried a couple of things, like pipe lagging taped into place, a syringe without the plunger taped into place (it shattered), and even just basic padded bandaging. They really need a medal for what they have tried, and it is the vet who is now suggesting the procedure, after trying and not succeeding to stop the splitting.
As with all things, there are risks in the procedure and I know that his owner is desperately worried that something might go wrong, but he feels that he knows that there is no other option at this point, because as he said, just as they think it's on the way to healing, hey ho it splits again and they are just having the same thing over and over. I've asked the owner to write me an account of whats happening, because even I didn't realise just how bad it could be (I really can understand why the lady in Sweden has painted her kitchen red Mike!!). Thanks again everyone, the support is really appreciated I will try the CDB link too.
Nina
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| Lynn |
Sudacrem ointment (found on the babies section) is excellent for healing split tails and fingers etc. Years ago i had to protect a very waggy tail whilst it healed. I will try to describe what we did  Take one girls regulation swimming costume, one mens ankle sock and some gamgee tissue (the stuff you would put under a horses leg bandage.) Cut the sock length ways so it is almost square: lay a similar sized piece of gamgee on top and machine the two together. Resew it as a sock with the gamgee on the inside. The swimming costume is put on the dog with the front on the dogs back and the straps tied around dogs neck.The hind legs go through the leg holes. Now imagaining this position cut a hole in the crutch for the tail and sew the sock into the hole, so the tail is enclosed in the sock when the costume is on the dog. All that now needs to be done is to cut out as much of the remaining crutch as needed,for the dog to pee etc .
After reading this you will probably all think I am bonkers  but I know how desperate you feel with a dog with a split tail and this REALLY worked. We used the contraption for several dogs and even used it without the tail guard(padded sock) the right way on the dog to stop a bitch taking out her stitches after spaying. Appearance wise it helped that the costume was black and the dogs were LMs.
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| Bareve |
Des you may not have actually "said a short tail" but your reference to a "bee sting tail" is generally known as short. I've done a very quick google search and found three quotes from Pointer descriptions and they all refer to a bee sting as being "short" :- a short, tapered "bee sting" tail the short "bee sting" tail, The tail is short, reaching no longer than the top of the hock and preferably somewhat shorter So an ideal tail in a Pointer is a bee sting tail and that is, in comparision to other tailed breeds, shorter With regards to using dogs whose tails seem to be stronger and lack tail damage - as I've said earlier that there are other "traits" that are higher in the priority list than tails - such as type, ability, temperament to name just a few. |
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| Sally |
There is a huge variation in tail length in Weims - I had two litters born within days of each other, and the tail length of one litter was 2/3 rds the length of the other. I kept one of the pups with the short tails and he has grown into a dog with a full tail that is considerably shorter than that of his half sisters (not much longer than the long docks favoured by German breeders and about 2 inches short of the hock) and for me forms the starting point for breeding for naturally short tails. He comes from working lines, so long tail or no, he is worked. | ||||||||||
| Alkemist |
Basc are happy to help us given the history and they are also interested in any documentation, reports and pictures we may get relating to the tail injury.
I feel a lot happier about this now.
Nina |
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| Sally |
This thread is probably not the best place to discuss tails and breeding, but I will just add that I think tail set and length is going to have a more significant input into Weimaraner breeding than many realise - the long back of the Weim puts considerable stress on the spine and whereas the breed may get away with a docked tail just 6 in long, the same is not true for a tail 2 foot long. We are already seeing that undocked dogs are developing more muscle around the loin in order to carry their tail and this is affecting their top line. The centre of gravity is altered too and this affects the lay of the shoulder. From a mechanical point of view, I think we will need to have a shorter mid-section (as seen in many of the continental dogs) to retain balance and support the spine. Hopefully these are issues that will be discussed at a breed seminar. |
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| Alkemist |
Update, my local opposition MP is going to help me get this brought to the attention of his colleague in the right department, he was very sympathetic and said that if nothing else, he would write a letter for me to the relevent shadow minister. Very nice man, as they say on TV.
Nina |
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| weima |
That sounds positive then Nina
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