BritAnnie
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KC initiatiev - at last? | Quote: | | judges awarding CCs for the first time in Gundog breeds. Have to attend FT or Working Tests and get confirmation they have watched a Gundog being 'functional'. |
- from Our Dogs Editor
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johnhod
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Then just ignore them in the ring in favour of overweight specimens handled by close friends
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BritAnnie
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That is a very cynical view. there are certainly some judges who would do so, but not all.
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weima
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Yes I knew about this & not sure it will work but at least the KC is trying although I dread to think of some of the judges I know attend a FT 
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | That is a very cynical view |
I'd have said sceptical but no matter, you are right that there are | Quote: | | certainly some judges who would do so |
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caithness hunter
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so how does this work??
as many of the gundog breeds have split into two separate "types" show and work, so what gain would a judge get from attending say a ESS trial and then judging them in the ring where apart from the colouring they bare no resemblance/??
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terrier
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| caithness hunter wrote: | so how does this work??
as many of the gundog breeds have split into two separate "types" show and work, so what gain would a judge get from attending say a ESS trial and then judging them in the ring where apart from the colouring they bare no resemblance/?? |
The judge may then want to get into field trials,especially if he thinks he will earn more money from his dogs trialling than showing.But then again it is a lot harder to get a dog winning in trials than taking a dog into a ring,a dog that nature has formed,and taking all the "oh so and so you are so good to have bred that dog well done" and the like
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BritAnnie
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What a bunch of wet blankets!!!  Here we have Kennel Club that is at last trying to put things right and what do they get - more criticism and hassle. Is it not time to stand up and say - OK we'll forget the past and see what happens in the future. Some POSITIVE thinking for a change!
I wish I hadn't bothered posting this on here now.
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Mike
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No Annie, I am with you. It is a start and it is certainly a step in the right direction. I think the KC should be applauded for their efforts, a long way still to go but progress none the less.
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BritAnnie
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Thanks, Mike, I was beginning to think I was on a lone wicket here!
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caithness hunter
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| BritAnnie wrote: | What a bunch of wet blankets!!! Here we have Kennel Club that is at last trying to put things right and what do they get - more criticism and hassle. Is it not time to stand up and say - OK we'll forget the past and see what happens in the future. Some POSITIVE thinking for a change!
I wish I hadn't bothered posting this on here now. |
Annie, i feel you are a little over sensitive (maybe you would rather i had no opinion?) i am not against the idea as long as there is something taken from it, change is not a dirty word as long as it is for the right reasons 
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caithness hunter
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perhaps you could explain what you hope the outcome of these judges attending trials would be?
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magyar viz
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Less cake & biscuits for everyone else
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johnhod
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I'm not against it, but I'll take some convincing that it will make a difference. It would be much more fun if we could have all gundogs in a show lined up off the lead at the start of the day, have a shotgun fired behind them and only judge those that the handlers can catch and get into the ring  
| Quote: | | I wish I hadn't bothered posting this on here now |
Come on Annie, you've got people talking and that's whet forums are about, isn't it?
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BritAnnie
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| caithness hunter wrote: | | perhaps you could explain what you hope the outcome of these judges attending trials would be? |
One thing would be to see if they could understand the correct movement for our breed, why it moves the way it does, by seeing it in action in the field. So many all rounders just don't have a clue.
But that is purely a parochial view. I would hope that in addition to that all new CC judges would get an insight into the reason for Field Trials, and also to see the differences in style between the HPR breeds, and also between HPRs and other gundogs.
But I had hoped people on here would welcome this announcement as a step towards the show and working side being able to communicate. Perhaps I was wrong.
Yes I probably am over sensitive. John H can I am sure testify to that. Is it a bad thing to be enthusiastic and to be annoyed by negativity?
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magyar viz
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Having only been to one show & only one breed present I cannot comment,
it does seem strange to me this doesnot happen & the wording "have" to attend, i would have thought they would want to attend.
Fair play to kc for getting the ball rolling (nobody likes change) & getting things moving, for some it will be a tick on the cv but maybe some will see what the breed's are really meant to do, look like, move like & act like & things will move on for the better
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countrygirl
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I think it is a good ideal, but it is a shame it is only for new judges and does nothing to stop present judges putting up lame, bad moving or over sized dogs which clearly are not 'fit for function'
Caz
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Lisa
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I think it is a step in the right direction!  But what would happen with the likes of the 'show gundog' breeds like the Am cocker etc!?
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johnhod
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| Quote: | | I probably am over sensitive. John H can I am sure testify to that. Is it a bad thing to be enthusiastic and to be annoyed by negativity? |
Yes, no, no
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münstermanager
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At least it is a step in the right direction for some breeds - Labs would also be most interesting Apparently, American Cockers look completely different in the States and do work. I didn't know  ; I thought they were all 'pyjama' case dogs (I have a friend who wants a dog that looks like the pyjama case she had as a child )
Sue
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munstyman
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Sorry I nearly missed this ( and no it wasn't that I don't frequent this area of the board, its because it didn't flag up for some reason  )
I think its excellent news Annie, all very positive from me and give the KC a bone for doing it  .
.....I bet your all waiting for the catch 
...Nope, going to disapoint you . Educate and inform, and what better place to do it than in the environment in which the gundog is made for. Now the judges will realise why their hand changes colour when they run it over my dogs, the sybiotic relationship between dirt and munsters can't be truly seperated by shampoo alone
Peter
p.s. Anybody want to run a pool on how long it will take before a `visiting' judge stacks up a dog in the gallery
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guy
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Will FT judges be required to attend a show?
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BritAnnie
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Personally I think ALL FT Judges should attend at least one Championship Show!
There are some who Judge in both disciplines - Di springs to mind!
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Mike
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Now whilst I can see why a show judge could benefit from attending a FT (or even better spend a day rough shooting with HPRs) what on earth could a FT judge learn from the show ring????
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weima
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| BritAnnie wrote: | | There are some who Judge in both disciplines - Di springs to mind! |
Our very own Sharon too
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Lynn
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Raymond Butler ,Geoff Hargreaves, Helen Evans, Irmgard Alcock, Maureen Nixon HPR's are quite well catered for
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terrier
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| Mike wrote: | | Now whilst I can see why a show judge could benefit from attending a FT (or even better spend a day rough shooting with HPRs) what on earth could a FT judge learn from the show ring???? |
Absolutely NOTHING WHAT-SO-EVER
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BritAnnie
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How a dog SHOULD be constructed??????
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terrier
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If a dog is doing the job it is bred for,in this case hunting,pointing retrieving,day after day during the season.And doing this season after season its confirmation is ok.It does not need a ring to stand in to prove the point.
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Lynn
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| terrier wrote: | | If a dog is doing the job it is bred for,in this case hunting,pointing retrieving,day after day during the season.And doing this season after season its confirmation is ok.It does not need a ring to stand in to prove the point. |
But they can lose breed type
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BritAnnie
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A previous Field Trial Secretary once said to me 'I don't care if they have 6 legs and 2 heads so long as they can work' I think that represents an attitude that would be difficult to change.
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guy
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If a dog can be dismissed - ie not placed out of four one week and a few weeks later be given green stars then I have to suspect that not all ring judges know what they are looking at.
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BritAnnie
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You are absolutely right on that score, Guy! I have said this for many years. However, with-holding gives a judge power, and a 'name' - I wonder if that would influence any decision?
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guy
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I would like to see FT seminars - I don't believe just 'watching' will inform anyone who is not aware of what they are looking at.
How about several breeds putting on a 'hunting seminar' with suitable dogs to hand and suitable commentators who can explain why a particular dog is working as it is and to draw attention to the particular points of its habit - head carriage springs to mind as one thing.
To explain how back length or shoulder lay back or upper arm length or chest shape is why it is and how it affects how the dog hunts.
One could go as far as bring champion show dogs to work the ground alongside, not suggesting to hunt alongside- that would b e unfair - so the differences could be seen in the field. Might be harsh on some of the 'split' breeds.
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BritAnnie
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Di Arrowsmith did a super one a few weeks back at Eskmills - but with a photo presentation, not outside in real life. That would be good - I'd go to that even though I've watched a few when John was taking part.
Bring it up with John A and we can discuss at next meeting
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Bareve
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| guy wrote: | I would like to see FT seminars - I don't believe just 'watching' will inform anyone who is not aware of what they are looking at.
How about several breeds putting on a 'hunting seminar' with suitable dogs to hand and suitable commentators who can explain why a particular dog is working as it is and to draw attention to the particular points of its habit - head carriage springs to mind as one thing.
To explain how back length or shoulder lay back or upper arm length or chest shape is why it is and how it affects how the dog hunts.
One could go as far as bring champion show dogs to work the ground alongside, not suggesting to hunt alongside- that would b e unfair - so the differences could be seen in the field. Might be harsh on some of the 'split' breeds. |
Guy I've said all along that you will need someone to walk with these judges to explain what a dog is doing, what maybe he should be doing and explaining what went wrong when it did - they should not just be left alone as they will go home at the end of the day knowing very little as to "why".
The seminar is a good idea but I think it would certainly would need all the breed clubs input which would ensure every breed was covered and it wouldn't then be a huge job for just one club. Can I forward your suggestion and email details to someone I know who is writing a general article in Dog World in response to this notification? From our discussions yesterday she seems to have the same views that we have here - pretty good idea but needs some tweaking
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terrier
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| guy wrote: | I would like to see FT seminars - I don't believe just 'watching' will inform anyone who is not aware of what they are looking at.
How about several breeds putting on a 'hunting seminar' with suitable dogs to hand and suitable commentators who can explain why a particular dog is working as it is and to draw attention to the particular points of its habit - head carriage springs to mind as one thing.
To explain how back length or shoulder lay back or upper arm length or chest shape is why it is and how it affects how the dog hunts.
One could go as far as bring champion show dogs to work the ground alongside, not suggesting to hunt alongside- that would b e unfair - so the differences could be seen in the field. Might be harsh on some of the 'split' breeds. |
if a judge needs to see a dog working to realise why a dog is built like it is he must not be a judge of working dogs.if he is just judging to the "standard" without knowing why then a trained monkey could do the job and probably judge the correct end of the lead !
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guy
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Sharon -please forward.
I fully endorse what you say about a singular breed club - certainly not one as small as the Brittany trying to run with it.
The multi breed HPR clubs I suspect are already delivering as much as they can - but the new one may well be up for it.
will pm email
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