| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Mike |
KC set to "ban" close breeding
Taken from here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2234/23/5/3 |
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| josie |
Wow, that is a staggeringly huge move! But, in endangered breeds with v v few dogs, could be difficult...? | ||||
| Linda W |
Maybe we should start asking DEFRA to look at the farm animals then. How many 'sires' are put to their mums, aunts, sisters, daughters.....? I suppose it doesn't matter that we get 3 legged ducks/chickens or 2 headed cows/sheep - we'll just eat them. 
Animals do not think the way we do. They just want to breed, and it is usually the fittest that survive. Still, I suppose the KC have to be seen to be doing something..... |
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| DesO'Neile |
Sire, Daughter matings are used fairly regularly in agriculture to fix traits. Say you work for some time to produce a cow that has good knees. If you believe you have achieved this you might carry out a sire dam mating to increase the chances of carrying this positive situation to later generations.
Close breeding does not of itself create abmormalities. It is a bit like the old computer saw. Put rubbish in you will more than likely get rubbish out. If a litter of pups turns out to be unsound then one of the parents must be unsound in some way, it must be a carrier at least. All the testing in the world will only give you the information to do the right thing. One of the most disturbing things about the recent uproar at the Kennel Club is that there is at least anecdotal evidence to suggest that matings have been carried out after animals were diagnosed as having a problem and to me that is totally reprehensible. This is a personal view, but no matter to what extent the kennel Club would like to be the "Governing Body" for all things canine it would worry me that they don't actually have the expertise to adjudicate on the finer points of genetics. They seem to like broad brush strokes and the danger is, as always, in the detail. |
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| terrier |
Anything the KC come up with will cause ripples with a LOT of breeders because of one thing MONEY.Now that the media have got their claws in to the fact that some breeds are now crippled the KC has GOT to be seen to do something.But they are only a governing body,the KC does not breed dogs,the owners of Kc registered dogs breed dogs.And lets face it there is a lot of money to be made breeding dogs."a friend wanted a pup out of meg so i am only covering costs by selling the rest of the litter","i only breed to improve the breed","i only breed to RE-cover the costs of working/showing" etc etc.All rubbish."If i sold them for £150 instead of £650 they would end up in a rescue centre".Again rubbish,look at all the expensive pedigree dogs in Battersea dogs home.A massive amount of breeders do it for the money,plain and simple,and if the KC are going to interfere with that get ready for fireworks 
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| tashap |
I can see some positives to the KC finally doing something about breeding and it has to be done even if its just to make people a bit more careful about how they breed.
Terrier I agree with you regarding why to breed and do it to replace my own only but there is a dilemma to that as well. If all the decent breeders stop breeding (which alot have done at the moment) it only leaves the crap ones left who don't care about how they breed or why. A litter bred by a good breeder leaves very little in the kitty even charging £6-700 per puppy. I've had alot of people ask me to recommend a breeder but they want a pup this year and don't want to be on a waiting list for a long period of time. |
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| weima |
I have a lot of pet people ring me up as well as people wanting a docked pup now. I find that once the pet market has decided they want a pup they don't care where it comes from as long as they get it NOW. The people who want a docked pup equally won't wait on a list so go to the illegally docked litter. There are some who will of course wait for the right litter. |
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| terrier |
Lets agree to disagree about "money left in the kitty".There is a LOT of money to be made. |
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| tashap |
do you give yours away then?? Thats how it used to be 'free to good home' these days you can pay a fortune for a cross bred mutt.
You can make alot of money there is no doubting that but not all of us do its not always about the money. |
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| DesO'Neile |
Sorreee! What planet do you live on? If I sold one pup out of a litter for £500 I would be well ahead. I know of a lady who bred a litter of 12 of one of the less popular HPR breeds and sold them for £800 an pup. For those with bad mental arithmatic that's a £10,000 litter. There is likely to be trouble ahead but we have only one registering body for gundogs in the UK and whatever value you put on a puppy of any particular breed it would be worth a lot less without the Kennel Club Registration Certificate. Properly sorted The Kennel Club could easily restore its reputation and be the envy of the world again. |
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| terrier |
Superb post by someone that says it like it is! 
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| karenb |
Well it sure isn't all profit .. I have just had a litter of 11 and 9 will be sold at £650.00 = £5850. My expense sheet on this litter runs to £5865 and this does NOT include any of my personal time to rear the litter, cost of items for puppy packs, purchase of the bitch, feeding/health care until of breeding age, training cost and competition entries. Think thats whats known as negative equity or business gone bust !!!
Karen |
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| terrier |
Why do you need to take into account the cost of your bitch,its feed untill breeding age,training costs and competition entries?.If for some reason your bitch could not have pups how would you go about recouping your cost of the bitch,its feeding,training etc etc?. |
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| guy |
I hope you were able to keep the last two puppies - in which case they only cost you £7.50 each. | ||||
| tashap |
I suppose it depends on how you breed doesn't it, if I did it the old fashioned in a kennel run, cheap working dog food and shove them out the door with the first jab and a KC registration your right I could have made alot of money from them easily. I had to keep an account of my litter for tax purposes and I was over £1000 down after the litter had gone to their new homes but I did keep two back a dog and a bitch for myself.
As a first litter there was an intitial outlay which included health tests on the bitch and the stud that I used, heart testing via blood test was just under £700 the scans another £400, add hips, eye tests, dna profiling, coat testing etc along with the vet bills to make sure both dogs were fit and healthy prior to the mating it all mounts up. Import of the dog from Holland along with bed & board for 7 months including being shows at Crufts, insurance costs, vet bills for the two week regular check I had on the pups and on the dam, one pup being checked after being jumped on at four weeks by my cocker and treatment, one pup who didn't make it and died after three days still saw the vet though, then you have food and I didn't skimp and go for the cheap £7 bag of working dog food mine were fed a combined barf (all organic) & commercial puppy diet from Arden Grange. Add the costs of the KC registration including a 5 generation pedigree certificate for the new owners, their boxes which they left with which had everything they will need for the first year including leads and collars, books on the breed some of which are rare, food, bowls etc etc, memberships to the club, Microchipping etc etc it all mounts up. Then there was advertising, home checks, initital socialising (took them to the cla gamefair). I didn't use paper, straw or sawdust bedding but puppy pads & baby pads as mine were raised in the house and left fully house trained & crate trained. When you add to that the swimming lessons in an aqua pool I paid for its not cheap but then I don't breed for profit I bred because I wanted a replacement dog for myself. Totally over the top I am sure but at the end of the day I took the average price for a puppy in the market made a caluculated loss which would have covered the cost if I had brought and paid for the two pups I now have. I won't be breeding from my bitch again she's done her bit so I won't be recouping any further revenue from her with subsequent litters which would have a reduced cost. I still have costs that will be going out later on in the year as I am paying for their hip scores, DNA profiling and offered a refund if they complete training and are neutered as the majority of my litter were males. Was definitely not a cheap get rich money making scheme... however I would say I am completely barking mad  They also left with a packed lunch that included a drop of brandy for the new owners haha!
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| munstyman |
This has the potential for being a very informative thread for those of us who take the easy route
Karen wrote:
Does this figure include costs incurred which would have been incurred anyway, with the ownership of the dog 
In simple terms ( me being simple ) I thought the two major costs were the stud fee ( price of one pup) and puppy feed for weaning to 8weeks ( and I can not see why any `sensible' person would have a feed bill exceeding the price of another pup in `normal' circumstances  )
I know vet fees are getting a bit rich  , but apart from routine health check ( and the docking fee for those taking this option) any `emergency' care should not be included in the general `breeding cost' only in the effected cost of that litter.
So how about it breeders, educate me   After-all dogs have been breeding for free and without our interference for some time  Are the results of our `interference' and the costs expressed legitimate and justified 
Peter We posted at the same time Tashap, on reading your post two things jump straight out at me, firstly is the emphasis on `accounting' for tax purposes . I'm well aware of issues regarding the inland revenue and self assessment, but this `emphasis' would imply a `professional breeder' element rather than a personal interest/hobby, and the rules regarding `legitimate expenses' would certainly make my return look positively bland ( Breed health checks, stud Cruft entries, come on, gamefair entries, swimming lessons )
Any costs associated with the stud, should be paid by the stud owner and be included in the fee, and all bitch checks done to define the bitch for its breed are not legitimate costs to include in the cost of the litter, we all ( should) do this for the breed, only pre mating health tests could be seen as integral to the remit of the question of actual litter cost IMO. Secondly, if your breeding for the first time, surely any initial outlay on `equipment' should be regarded in a similar fashion as to `capital' and spread out over the life of the equipment, not for just the one litter. Are your puppy pack contents excessive luxuries or essential requirements, personally I would like to see the new owner showing some understanding of their future responsibilities and requirements of their new purchase, rather than giving them an `off the shelf package'. |
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| tashap |
I'm a student and I get a student loan & grants so any additional 'earnings' have to be taken into account for tax purposes that I have to declare.
I didn't include equipment in my costs at all, my whelping box was beautiful handmade to my specs by my dad as a gift and although if I had had it made the cost would have been about £200 (was cost for materials not my dads time whose a chippy) it will only be used once as I have no intention of breeding again until I need another replacement dog and don't think it hygenic to loan it to someone else. Its been dismantaled and the parts reused elsewhere as book shelves. The health tests I did are a legitimate breeding cost as they are way and above the required for Weimaraners in the UK whose only requirement is hip scoring and were done only for breeding purposes I did them both on my bitch and on the stud dog which belongs to someone else. Stud fee was not included either as we did a bit of an exchange. Included was the scan on Bonnie to make sure she was pregnant and still healthy as she was slightly older than I would have liked at 4 years. The pictures are very cool as keep sakes. The other bits mentioned probably were luxuries but they were raised indoors and I don't feel that paper is very hygenic the puppy pads helped them early learn toilet training and the baby mats (pampers no less) were put under the vetbed to allow for easy cleaning worked a treat no mess no smell of puppy pee and poo and my new carpets didn't get wrecked either. I sent packets off with them because I wanted my puppies to have an easy transition to their new homes and the new owners to have value for money without giving them away. Your right about the puppy owners taking responsibility but I also believe that it is the responsibility of the breeder too. I do alot for rescue so am more than aware of the numbers of dogs which end up with rescue or back with their breeders who come in totally unsocialised, sometimes not housetrained, not obedience trained and to be honest a complete pain in the neck to rehome... I bred them they are my responsibility and I felt that for the first year at least I should take an interest in their well being to make sure if the worst should happen they stand a fair chance of a new home or being easily reintergrated with mine. I really hope that even if the pups never get used for working and are only pets that they are at least easy to rehome if it ever becomes necessary. You can't guarantee that a pup going for show or for working will actually end up being used for that purpose. The line I used has a bit of a dark horse in it whose produced some real sh*ts that have had to be pts for being dangerous but good workers. The only real disappointment I had was that I paid in advance for my docking and dew claws to be done and left a deposit with a second vet just in case the first was unable to do it and BOTH let me down, the first was away moving house which I did know about hence the booking of the second and the second just point blank refused to do it despite my having all the correct paperwork and having made the arrangements in advance. My normal vet offered to do the dew claws but when they were checked they were already attached so it was too late to do it. No refund was given. I know its way and above what is necessary but at the time I had no children with no possibility of children so these were my babies...and a girlie has to have a chance to spoil her babies, haha! |
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| karenb |
Because if you are saying people breed for "profit" then the tax man can get involved . This implies a business and as such ALL expenses are balanced against expenses. A friend who was investigated by the tax people had an account work out their financial situation and estimated they would need one litter / week to make a profit !! Karen |
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| karenb |
I am not even going to answer that
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| BritAnnie |
Goodness me, and here was I thinking I was the Accountant on here! You are all very knowledgeable
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| DesO'Neile |
Now I know why people like vets, managing directors of dog food companies and makers of dog accessories drive big cars. Some of the figures and the rationale for arriving at them are nothing short of ridiculious. | ||||
| terrier |
Everyone to their own i suppose 
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| tashap |
You'd be welcome to do my taxes for me...  The rules on my grants are very strict as I'm a mature student I was told as I have other employment beyond my student status that it all has to be taken into account for tax purposes... is that correct or is the tax man trying to fiddle me again??
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| BritAnnie |
All income earned or from savings is taxable - what you do is add up all the gross total income for the year from 6th April to the following 5th April, take off any allowances you have e.g. personal allowance for this year (to 5/4/09) is £6035, and you pay 20% tax on the rest. I don't know how grants fit in though, Sorry. | ||||
| munstyman |
Thanks for the explanation Tashap, I totally understand your position and accounting . However `tax man' aside, what I was hoping to achieve is a cost appraisal of whelping a bitch, I don't really want to get into a profit or loss argument, or the price of puppies ( If I want a particular dog I don't consider its price unless I can not afford it ).
There will always be some who put the price of a pup in the first instance, and I mean both from the buying AND selling perspective
When there was a debate on another forum about the cost of training and the fee's charged to have a dog trained, you soon get to realise how much it costs just to keep a dog these days, in a day to day reality. If I was to put the cost of rearing a bitch and all the associated costs to getting to a breeding age, including getting it trained and qualified, I am pretty certain I could increase the National debt
But I do not consider this to be a reflection on the actual cost of breeding, even the `extra' health tests you mentioned, are I consider to be what every genuine dog breed enthusiast should be doing as a matter of course, not just a pre-breeding condition. What are the costs for the various stages post-mating through to the puppies leaving at around eight weeks ( And given the high level of accountancy there seems to be about ( commonly known as tax evasion ) there must be breeders out there who can give a proper insight to this area )
Peter |
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| lagopuslagopus |
Not a huge amount I would have said Peter. All the tests Inca had had before we even decided to have a litter. Helen already had all the equipment obviously, so for Inca's litter we had (or I should say Helen had) the cost of the scan and the extra cost of more expensive food for the last few weeks before whelping. Then there were calcium tablets, some other homeopathic tablets and then the worming preparation for the puppies together with the powdered milk, weaning food and puppy food. That's pretty much it I think. I did do books/videos/etc to go with the puppies but didn't take that into account - that was just what I wanted to do. | ||||
| langhaar |
If breeding puppies wasn't profitable there would be far fewer folks doing it
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| Claire |
I was just about to say the same thing Langhaar
It is obvious that money will not always be made, you only have to consider those unlucky people who have had things go wrong and vets bills have far outweighed even the smallest amount of money that might have been made to understand that. But the fact remains that money can be made out of breeding, otherwise we wouldn't have puppy farmers churning them out left right and centre 
I've not got involved in this discussion as I've never taken a litter and I still don't know if I'm going to. But one thing that I don't think has yet been mentioned but IMO should be factored into the costings is the amount of electricity, gas, oil, whatever your fuel may be that you are likely to use in the amount of vet bed washing and keeping the house and/or whelping room, warmer than you normally would. Likely there will be an increase so this has got to have an effect on the household bills. |
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| langhaar |
I'll justify my comment as I had a phone call yesterday for an enquiry for a vizsla pup.This lady was quoted £750 to £ 900 from breeders many of whom were backyarders with one bitch. Look at the statistics and see how many HV litters have been produced in the last few years, they can't sell their pups for their rarity factor now. Market forces dictate but how can you justify the price in the UK when the most you will pay for a puppy in Europe is 600 Euros which includes their hunting breeds with an Ahnentafel containing information on hip , conformation and prufung scores in 5 generations.Most breeders don't let their puppies go until 10 weeks of age and the price they sell them for is dictated by their Club.
Don't make a profit, don't make me laugh, that's why dogs are in such a miserable state in the UK. |
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| helenthomas |
'I really hope that even if the pups never get used for working and are only pets that they are at least easy to rehome if it ever becomes necessary. You can't guarantee that a pup going for show or for working will actually end up being used for that purpose. The line I used has a bit of a dark horse in it whose produced some real sh*ts that have had to be pts for being dangerous but good workers. '
Crikey, up until that point I was thinking 'what lucky owners to have been offered such a wonderful package.....' 
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| karenb |
Peter here are some typical costs taken from notes from the few litters I have had as an indication of what I include as "costs". I do not include the costs of owning the dogs but if making money was the game I would expect those costs would be included .. no bitch no pups !!
I do not breed often but from my limited experience you certainly can end up with a £ in hand if you have a good size litter and have no veterinary problems but you can equally end up in debit and need to have a significant contingency fund to deal with this. My last litter has cost many thousands in vet fees but it matters not one jot as they have managed to save my girl against all the odds and we have some beautiful pups who I hope will give their new owners much pleasure over the years. Ok here goes .. • Pre mate progesterone blood tests £45.00 each (average of 3 natural mating and up to 10 for AI required) • Stud fee + transport costs to get to stud & overnight stays as required? £650 stud fee /travel lodge if required anything from £19 – £59/petrol variable) OR • Ai costs – collection, storage, shipping & associated import costs, and veterinary fees for insemination. (Variable eg Import from Australia / two attemped AI’s which failed – in excess of £3000.) • Swabs & Antibiotic cover for mating – Approx £50.00 • Scans - Approx £40.00 • Wormer for bitch and pups once born - £38.45 • Antiseptic hand wash- hibicsrub £ 4.61 • Disinfectants – trigene £50.14 • Whelp kit (non reusable items) - Dopram V drops, colostrum replacer, latex gloves (sterile and non sterile), cotton wool, swabs, glucose powder etc Approx £34.40 • Vinyl floor covering to protect carpets in whelping room – reared and whelped indoors Approx £60.00 • Whelping box – disposable single use £52.00 • Fleece bedding – for whelping/rearing pups plus extra fleece blankets for owner to take home with puppy £54.00 • Kitchen Roll – numerous roles !! £16.40 • New mop heads (2) £5.98 • Puppy pads £76.60 • Post whelping vet check dam & pups £30.00 • Dock & dewclaws – plus microchip £ 40- 45 / pup • Advertisement costs £50.00 • KC registrations £12/ puppy • KC 5 generation pedigrees £6.00 / puppy • Export pedigrees as required £40.00 / puppy • Bitch replacement Milk /Goats milk for older pups £42.28. • Feeding tubes/bottles for hand rearing if necessary – 4.50 /tube & 7.00 /bottle • Super premium food – extra feed costs for bitch plus food for pups and food for new owners £45.95/13.5kg bag – approx 5 needed = £229.75 • Puppy ID bands £7.00 • Routine Vaccinations for pups staying over 8wks - approx £32.00/puppy • Miscellaneous vet fees/ medication fees – dam and/or pups. I would never mate a bitch without a contingency fund of £4000.00 • Fuel costs – extra heating for whelping room, running heat lamp, extra running costs washing machine. Variable based on where you rear pups/ time of year etc • Entertaining puppy owners – food/beverages/for new owners as required. From 20.00 upwards. • Puppy sitter – supervision/feeding of dam / pups when working, or otherwise from home. (£10.00 /visit I usually need 2 days / week for 12 weeks - £240.00) • Toys for pups (single use to prevent cross infection & can be given to puppy owners as part of pack £30.00 • Telephone calls to owners (national & international /export agents), etc - £20.00 Puppy packs :: • Stationery / printing costs re socialisation/feeding/ training /rearing etc £25.00 • Gundog whistle £4.99 • Puppy lead & collar £6.00 • Registration litter with Gundog Club £14.72/puppy • Food - may be able to get FOC if on a breeder service |
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| munstyman |
Thanks a trillion to both Karens, and all the other posts since my last one, this is what I was hoping for. Certainly from Karens thorough listing of costs, there are many items which I think we would all over look when a litter is bred, maybe there is a good side to accounting
I can see there is a lot of personal choice in what levels of input a breeder can opt into or out of, I know I can't help feeling a little short changed in all my dogs `puppy packs' , as those mentioned are certainly executive levels of service ( mind you they would be wasted on a `baler twine lead' and `cardboard box bed' man like me )
Is there any specific insurance cover for whelping and associated `emergency' vet fees, or is it covered by normal dog insurance, perhaps with an additional premium
I can't help giggling, but what exactly are `puppy pads' Please don't tell me they are `nappies' for dogs as I'm likely to need some myself
Peter p.s. My dogs have `luxury' TR slip leads, and feather pillow dog beds for those doubting my competence for owning dogs, or selling me a pup in the future
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| lagopuslagopus |
They're not luxury Peter - my leather ones are though
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| munstyman |
Thats what they said on the packet.....they have leather trim ( and I found they last a lot longer than the rubber trimmed ones, better stitching right through.
Does this mean your doing matching leads now to go with your lanyards
I've got strip leather leads, but find them uncomfortable in the hand, if you do platted hand loops I might be interested ....I can put the cost onto my expences
Peter |
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| karenb |
Oh how I wish the little darling were romping round in pampers
Puppy pads are square pads, plastic back topped with super absorbant filler which wicks fliuds into pad. Plastic back protects flooring. Pads inpregnated with scents that attract puppy so help with house training once pups leave home. Karen |
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| karenb |
Standard pet policies have problems associated with pregnacy, whelping and rearing of puppies as exclusions . I have however discovered that the KC now have a breeder policy which does cover such potential problems .. obviously premiums reflect the added risks but I am seriously considering changing from my current policy to this one. http://www.breederplan.co.uk/the-benefits/default.aspx Karen |
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| terrier |
A lot of things listed in this thread are a total waste of time and money.Will they make a working dog any different in the field?.NO.I think a lot of it has got to do with the attitude "i lurve my dogs i would never make money out of them".So long as the litter are suitably reared the rest is baggage that does not benefit the dog.A well reared litter from good stock is sold before it is born is the motto i stick to.But it all depends on wether the breeder is a "dog" person or a "likle doggie woggie"person | ||||
| lagopuslagopus |
Peter I used to use the same as you but still found the handles would all of a sudden disappear as the stitching seemed to pull from the rope. I had to restitch them. Mine don't match the lanyards. I did make a couple for 'show' leads but they are not strong enough for everyday use. I use the round leather but don't make them unless I have to as the hand stitching takes me ages as I'm not professional! | ||||
| munstyman |
Thanks Karen, Karenb, for putting in the detail, the point of me asking was as much to inform the `masses' as myself ( heaven forbid that I'm forced down the breeding route!) I've always been a little curious as to all the figures banded about in breeding dogs, and it seems others were curious too , and its very good of you to enlighten everyone on here. now at least I have a better understanding of the various positions and arguments, I'm grateful .
terrior wrote:
I understand where your coming from but I wouldn't go so far as labeling breeders either as a `dog person' or `doggie woggie person'.
based solely on what they do and spend to rear their pups
I like most people on here will have done our homework long before we go to pick up our new pup, both in terms of parentage and line choice, and competence of the breeder. To me it matters not a jot if the pups are reared in a state of the art whelping kennel, or a stable, or the contents of a puppy pack Providing the whelp and the pups are in good health and happy when I view, visit and come to collect.
Everyone will do things differently to some degree, and likewise everyone will have an opinion as to what is being done is insufficient or over the top, as long as healthy puppies are the end result I'm not one to pass judgement
Karen, lagopuslagopus, wrote:
I still found the round leather too rigid and hard ( I've very soft hands, girls take note ) Can't you do platted leather handles, like they use in hunting whips? they would be a perfect consistency, and could be dyed to match the lanyards ( for the most fashion conscious of dog handlers
Peter |
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| windem bang |
Should the K.C. be sorted from within or without ? Can it be trusted to sort itself from within ? Who could sort it from without ?
Bill T. |
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| windem bang |
OOPS ! Sorry ! I posted this after reading just the first page . The subject seems to have changed quite a bit !
After reading the rest of it I am bewildered. I bred only from bitches that had won field trials and in two cases won in the showring too. It never occurred to me to add in the amount of time I spent in training those dogs when I could have been on overtime rates at my work ! The usage of my vehicle to take those dogs to all the varying places they needed to be trained at in order to win at trials should have been factored in too ! I saved quite a bit on the puppy packs mind you - they consisted of a very well bred puppy and its K.C. registration and pedigree - plus the offer of advice if the buyer wanted it. I never, not even once ,had a pup returned as being unhealthy or unsuitable for the job it was purchased for. Please remind me never to buy a pup from an accountant !!!
Bill T. |
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| Bareve |
Interesting thoughts..... I would certainly say that there is a heap of difference between a dog "owner" and a dog "person". The dog owner as such breeding a litter outside in a kennel so as to prevent the mess and hard work of having a litter born/reared in the house. Feed it the cheapest puppy food and sell them to whoever comes along and without vet checks/vaccination or a decent puppy pack - very much like a lot of "working bred litters" that are advertised daily on the internet. The dog "person" will have done "everything" possible to ensure the puppies will be born healthy, have the puppies born and reared in the house, fed the best food available, spare no expense in rearing the puppies including vet checks/vaccination etc. At least with a puppy born this way, it may not be a better "working dog" but it surely will be a better reared, better socialised and therefore a much easier prospect to introduce and accept the way of life chosen for it. Have you bred a litter recently Terrier? If so I would have thought you would be aware that "joe public" are more aware of the benefits of having puppies born and raised in the house compared to being reared in an outside kennel - whether the puppy is destined to be a working dog or not. |
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| munstyman |
Its interesting to note that everything the KC has recently proposed could ( and some say should have ) been done along time ago, and that it has only done so in light of poor publicity that went beyond the KC bowing dog showing fraternity. In that lies your answer Bill I am not a fan of the KC, but I do not think that it is all bad, like most organisations they will at some time go astray especially believing their own self publicity, and that they are accountable only to themselves. They have long considered themselves GOD in the world of dogs, due partly due to their history of involvement, and partly due to the complicity of dog breeders in giving credence to the illusion. All you ever need to know about the KC is contained in the declaration every one of you sign when you participate in a KC licenced event:
" I agree to submit to and be bound by The Kennel Club Rules and Regulations in there present form or as they may be amended from time to time in relation to all canine matters with which The Kennel Club is concerned." There is a paradox to this question, as you could argue that the breeds have got into this state due to the dog breeders looking beyond the health of their dogs and only to a recognised qualification sanctioned by the KC ( and by the breed clubs). In order to get the dog breeders to correct the health of their dogs we need the KC and its `power' to move this proccess forward, I mean do you really think breeders left to their own devices would flush generations of their breeding down the toilet, without a big bully standing over them, I don't think so! It seems we are living in a time where many culprits are having to get us out of the mess that their poor management and decision making has put us in, in the first place ( edging into politics there, sorry )
In short I think the KC can make progress in the health of dogs, and maybe, just maybe with the help of well targeted publicity and pressure from fair minded dog enthusiasts we can get a reformed and living in the real world Kennel Club to represent interests of the canine persuasion rather than the fiscal variety ( Remember I'm a HPR owner so I'm naturally an optimist When they give me a declaration I can honestly sign, they will be heading in the right direction
Peter Only you Bill could bring a thread back on track and then send it Off again within a post I bet the admins have developed nervous twitches, or maybe they've given up and just go with the flow
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| lagopuslagopus |
Try soaking the round leather ones in a plastic bag containing some leather oil (horse stuff in a blue tin) overnight and you will find they become 'soft as a baby's bum' Peter. |
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| langhaar |
Those breeders who are " guardians " of their breed make sure their new owners have a top quality pup bred from parents who will pass on desired charactristics whether it be a working , showing or a pet home.If everyone had these same ideals the KC would not be favouring an accredited breeder scheme, there would be no need.
In certain breeds the incentive for breeding seems to be money.Why has a particular sire sired over 100 litters in one breed ?What will this do for their diversity in the future? There are those who will do everything rearing litters, sparing no expense, some take the middle ground and some do very little at all. In the system we have there is no discrimation between the good and the bad, it's buyer beware!Breed clubs can do much more that they do, that's why I don't want to pay extra at shows to cater for docked breeds, didn't see many committee members chained to the fences at Westminster. |
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| tashap |
It was only a consideration not a concern the dog concerned is german where they are sharper than our need is historical in the pedigree doesn't double up in the sire and dam line, the aggression issues have arisen when this dog is prevalent in it and with poor handling which to be honest could happen with any dog. I did alot of research prior to breeding the litter. Both the sire and dam and their parents all have good temperaments with both people and other dogs
As a precausion though I did send the majority of the litter off to a behaviourist (works with police and guidedogs as well as our breed rescue for the worst dogs) at six months so they could be socialised with lots of other dogs and be assessed for additional training needs. I kept back the one male pup in the litter that was a bit of a toad but he's a lovely dog so I needn't have worried
I still use saddlesoap and lanolin or neatsfoot oil for my leather leads same old stuff I used to use for my tack. Small tin lasts for ages.
I think something you need to consider is that in this day and age you have to have a dog that can be both a 100% working dog and a family pet. Personally I needed a dual purpose dog and bred the litter as such because I bred the litter to get a dog suitable for working but ALSO suitable as a working assistance dog so I can retire my current one next year... so don't assume we are 'likle doggie woggie' people the truth is far from it... my dogs certainly don't wear clothes or get carried around in some handbag
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| munstyman |
Still prefer the feel and give and grip of woven fibre/leather, and I'm well versed in techniques of making leather supple my leather codpiece wouldn't half chafe otherwise
Langhaar wrote:
Personally, I think, and it has been expressed in other posts on here ( referring to SRHP and Bracco's) that the greatest danger to health of breeds is the apparent blindness of some breeders, who after the expense of importing dogs only to find that their precious investment is flawed, continue with a breeding program as if these flaws are going to miraculously disappear in the future. I would categories these `breeders', and I use the term loosely , as the equivalent of puppy farmers if not worse as at least puppy farmers don't claim to be experts in the breed.
If your going to breed dogs, and put yourself up as either an establishment kennel or a breed guardian, you have to be able to make the tough decisions, swallow your pride, take the financial loss, learn from your mistakes and do the right thing in relation to the long term. There are very few genetic conditions that can be bred out without co-operation from all the breeders and the leadership of a strong breed club. Human nature being what it is, the moment you let an unneutered puppy go to a pet home you loose control of your breeding, once you recognise that and rid yourself of the illusion of control, you will be in a better position to `manage' your breeding It will be interesting to watch how the KC will rise to this challenge, will they lead or be led, or will the accountants win the day
Peter |
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| tashap |
you can't disallusion yourself though into thinking that all your pups are going to go to working homes and stay in working homes who to be honest are just as bad if not worst in some cases than pet owners when it comes to breeding. You only have to look at the spaniels to see the lack of health testing, breeding on each available season, close matings etc that goes on, working owners have a dreadful reputation in some breeds. The other thing is there just would not be enough owners about for any of the breeds... certainly not the Weimaraner even some of our most highly achieving working breeders still have dogs in pet homes.
I started off a pet owner and because of my dog ended up a gamekeeper and working my dogs, we all start somewhere not everyone is born with a working spoon in their mouths. The same happened to several people that I know on here... There are KC endorsements in place that a breeder can use although they are not always an effective guarantee. At the end of the day there are no guarantees. At best all you can do is have a contract specifying that your dogs offspring are either worked, qualify or neutered at a specific age. Thats what I've done but again there are no guarantees eve though I'll be refunding the cost for it to be done. Some breeders are responsible look at Dave Pilkington with Quadet Catrin lovely bitch FT CH first in ages in the breed yet he hasn't bred a litter because of health problems. Am sure he could have bred like a yo yo and got buyers if he'd wanted to. |
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| munstyman |
I agree with everything you say Tashap, I was merely pointing out that unless a breeder retains all their stock there is no certainty of control of their breeding, and those that think otherwise are only fooling themselves . Endorsements, contracts and retaining papers SHOULD give breeders the control they seek, but often they are used as a `threat' of action and not enforced by the breeder/KC when they are `challenged'. So more and more are being ignored and getting away with a breach.
Any breeder worth there salt can correct genetic faults in their own stock by careful breeding, however retaining the `improved stock' is good for the line, but in getting there how many `infected' stock are released into the breed gene pool (even though the intention for `them' to be bred from is not there...how many will be bred from?...and where is the control?) and how do these numbers effect the breed overall? Is it a case that its all too easy for breeders to say `well it wasn't me guv ' Or maybe its just to easy to breed dogs generally, and perhaps we should be looking at obtaining a licence to breed and set the preconditions very high and worth the paper there written on ( unlike the proposed KC scheme which IMO has more loopholes in it than a badly crocheted blanket , and still has too much focus on revenue rather than doing right by the dogs  )
I would add that there are far too few true guardians of the breeds to influence the overall out come, once again it becomes a numbers game, and like it or not we are going to have to play by the rules of the market place and public perception if we are going to stand a chance. In an economic downturn, and the cost of keeping a dog spirals, the incentives for the unconsciencious breeder to have a litter decreases, and it is in this climate, especially with the `unfavourable' publicity, that `minority voices can best be heard, lets hope they hit the right note AND that the KC and the public hear the message.
Peter |
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