| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| BenB |
Large Munsterlanders Compared to GLP'sApart from colour what is the difference?Both German, both long-haired pointers. Both similar sizes, presumably can work similar terrain and I have read that the munsters do occasionally throw a red pup. Can anyone give me some breed history as to why they bothered? I am not being glib - they just seem so closely matched..... |
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| chiendog |
Short answer: The politics/prejudices/fairy tales associated with the colour black led to the split years ago and keeps the split (publicly) alive today. |
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| Mike |
Re: Large Munsterlanders Compared to GLP's
Although didn't the Dutch GLP have a bit of setter added for pace and range? Could be wrong but it seems to ring a bell! |
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| chiendog |
The GLP had setter bred in in Germany and in the Netherlands. The difference is "when". The LM and GLP have also crossed to each other in the past. Again, the question of "when" remains. |
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| windem bang |
i've just finished reading what became a heated argument about the G.L.P. and derivatives on a U.S. forum. It would seem the breed is in the process of splitting there into those who believe these dogs should kill foxes etc. and those who do not want that and will not test for it.
I stayed out of the argument - it's not my country. One of this forums denizens stepped in to cool things down a little - well done you know who ! Bill T. |
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| BenB |
interesting stuff - thanks | ||||
| chiendog |
What I have found particularly interesting are the slightly different histories of the breeds presented by the two sides. No one denies that the split between the two breeds is along the line of coat colour. DL's are brown and white, LM's are black and white. That much is clear. The real question is why were the black and white dogs rejected by the DL club? Some LM people claim that this was due purely to a prejudice against the colour black which, at the time, was viewed as the mark of Cain...ie: tainted "English" blood (similar sentiments where shared by other German breed clubs as well as French breeders of the various braques and epagneuls. Black is absolutely forbidden in many breed standards to this day and in some breeds only just tolerated and strictly controlled.) On the DL side you occasionally find claims that somehow it was performance or health related issues that led to the black dogs being rejected. The brown and whites were "better" or "healthier". Of course, no objective evidence (test scores, medical records) is ever presented to support the claims, just vague innuendo. Among the most level headed accounts (in English) that I have come across is found in an excellent book by Sheila and Joe Schmutz. http://www.lmcna.org/reading.html In it, Joe lists three reasons why the colour black was seen as undesireable: "First, black and white dogs were thought too easily visible when stalking big game or in pursuit of poachers. Second, black was also seen as reflecting blood from across the channel or from locally held pointers or setters, at a time when the English Pointer and Setter influence on many German versatile dogs had fallen out of favour. Finally, black being genetically dominant over brown, must have caused considerable consternation at a time when the significance of Gregor Mendel's work in genetics was barely being rediscovered. Black dogs can have brown offspring, but not the reverse. |
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| Blue |
So, when an LM mating produces brown pups, do they call them DLs? 
What I think I know: Longhairs were first on the block, developed from among others Irish, Gordon setters and French Spaniels and the original genetic base was only 5 dogs. The only brown one was Kalkstein, the others were black. For whatever reasons, notably the ones listed above, but I suspect it was purely for aesthetics, the breed was split into DL and LM and the battle has been raging ever since 
Of course, this could be all wrong. 
It doesn't matter anyway, they're both lovely and essentially the same dog just like many others . |
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| chiendog |
I think it would depend on the breeder or registry or other factors. On this page http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogredbrown.html there is a photo of "representatives of the two possible color phases of the Large Munsterlander. Most Large Munsterlanders are black and white but occasionally a brown and white one is born." So it looks like a brown and white Large Munsterlander is called a Munsterlander..at least by the Large Musterlander Club of North America. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
In this country the brown and white puppies cannot be registered as Large Munsterlanders and certainly not as Longhairs There is a blood test available now so you can tell whether you are likely to get any browns and avoid it if your bitch was a carrier.
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| BritAnnie |
When I think back to 2003 the only Klein Munsterlander I ever saw was in Switzerland - and it was brown and white not black and white. The owners said it was a KM when I enquired what breed it was as it looked like a long cast liver Brittany with a tail!
BA |
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| chiendog |
Thanks for the clarification. I am not sure what the official position is in the clubs on this side of the ocean. It seems a shame really that the DL would refuse a sort of genetic "freebie" from the LM ranks. The DL is after all seeking to widen its genetic base, so why not take a brown LM? I guess they feel it is better to add in some German Shorthair instead. |
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| Blue |
Isn't that the answer to everything? If in doubt throw some GSP at it
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| tashap |
do the GLPs bay the same as a LM on game??? The only ones I have seen here were very popular with the guns once they learnt that the baying meant that game was about to go up and they could get their guns ready. | ||||
| lagopuslagopus |
Mine don't do that 
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| tashap |
really??? Both the ones I've been on shoots with did mainly on partridge was fabulous as one of the shoots is very dense so the guns are usually rubbish shots.
I always thought it was only sussex spaniels that gave tongue but I was assured by the owner the LM do too. I don't think they were related. Only other ones I've seen have been at working tests, no game so no vocal chorus beyond inpatience to get going. |
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| munstyman |
Why is it that the moment I get too busy to log on, you lot put so much on here it takes me hours to catch up ( and then for good measure you put this post on )
Chiendog has about summed up the various histories of the breeds, and having heard the various positions over the years I tend to take the easy option and suggest the truth lies somewhere in between
As with all breeding of dogs, splitting of breeds even to this day is more about the `human' element of individual ideals, ideas and egos rather than improving the dogs themselves 
However there is something about the German longhair and the L.M that has always struck me as `ancient' and `primitive', this is by no means scientific as it is hard to quantify or indeed qualify, but I would argue that there may well be less `foreign' blood in these breeds as in many of the HPR breeds. Certainly the `dutch' longhair does appear to me at least to have more differences than the GLP and the LM, which are to me the same `overall package' just in a different wrapper 
As for giving tongue, well they do talk alot ( munsters), but I have said elsewhere they are very `communicative', but like any other dog its more a case of putting that `ability ' to good use, `totverbeller' for example.
That probably answers both scenarios, the dogs are letting out their frustrations in both their find of game not being acknowledged and watching all the `inferior' dogs getting to do something that they know they can do better ( And this is not just confined to LM's alot of the top dogs that have to tolerate their second rate handlers and shots express their disgust in a variety of ways )
I guess the only real test to separate the LM and the GLP in any working format would be to film them in black and white and see if the purists could tell the difference ( throw in a few brown L.M's for good measure  )
I would just like to add that any differences would probably lie more within the individual lines and dogs rather than being a breed specific trait, as a point well made by chiendog on the other post .
Peter |
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| windem bang |
Are all the brown Munsties put into pet only homes ? Or is somebody, somewhere, in the process of creating a "new" breed with them ?
I can't follow what you mean Peter when you say these breeds have less "foreign " blood in them ? Did you mean less pointer or setter or did you mean less of the Continental breeds ? Why are they more "primitive" than for example the viszla which has supposedly been on the go since Methusala was a pup ? Bill T. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
You like to live dangerously Bill 
The Browns can do anything Bill apart from enter into KC working tests and field trials. They work as well as the Blacks. Some people even ask for them which does surprise me a bit - why don't they go for a Longhair? I'm glad I wasn't the only one who didn't quite understand what Peter was saying
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| langhaar |
Perhaps I can help clearing up a few old chestnuts.
Information on the split in colour is via translation from the Der Deutsch Langhaar Jagdeebrauchshund by Merx, the only book on the breed recommended by the the DL Verband. In this he states the colour was rejected in 1879 because breeders at that time thought black had been introduced through collie blood so this colour was banned from the stud book This was confirmed by Hubertus Beverfoerde, whose great great grandmother was a founder member of the DL stud book in the 1890's when he came to shoot over our dogs a few years ago. All 5 foundation stud dogs were brown or brown and white with the Kalckstein line producing the ticking gene.Like everything in life we all have a choice, some accepted the colour brown and others prefered black.Black BB is always dominant over brown bb as much as shorhair is dominant over long.When the Munsterlander stud book was founded in 1922 some foundation dogs were heterozygous ie Bb so breeding that to BB produced a 25% risk of producing brown puppies. With selective breding more dogs became homozygous BB so brown was not as numerous. With all numerically small breeds genetic diversity became a problem so Longhair blood was reintroduced in the 70's and again in the 90's to improve this, this reintroduced heterzygosity so brown Munsterlanders re-appereared in greater numbers. They couldn't be included in the stud book so were sold off as pets. An application by the DLV to introduce GM blood 6 years ago into a controlled 3 generation programme was rejected by the GMV so DK was blood was used.After 3 generations longhair re-appeared in these litters and these were registered as DL's. This is what the Germans are prepared to do to protect diversity in small breeds. Are brown munsterlanders DL's, of course not, they have LM parentage. Are there differences in the breeds.I can only quote information from Larry when he visited the GM Prufung a few weeks ago. There is as much bickering on the subject in Germany as there is in the rest of the world, GM owners say they have better dogs than DL's and vice versa. He was struck by the quality of their GM's whilst UK bred ones tended to be smaller.The LM has been anglisised in the UK whilst the GLP has not at this time. As for setter blood, Irish setter lines were rejected in the 1800's and all off spring culled because pheomelanine ee in the setter introduced heterozygous Ee which produced red, yellow and all white coats in the Longhair. I do have the pedigrees going back to the foundation of the breed in 1879 kindly sent to me by Annie who has recorded them on her pedigree site. As for the sharpness this is to test dogs are willing to protect the hunter in situations we don't see in the UK.I recently spoke to someone who had been boar hunting near the old East German border.Dogs wore Kavaler vests while running boar out of the forest.One hunter with a weimaraner didn't put the vest on his dog as his shot killed the boar or so he thought.Unfortunatly it wasn't dead, charged for the hunter and the weinmaraner went in to protect it's owner and paid with it's life. |
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| A van der Sluis |
Well said, Brenda. I agree with that. | ||||
| chiendog |
Excellent post Langhaar! Thank you for the detailed information.
If I may, there is one point that may need clarification:
With the exception of the Weimaraner, the German HPR breeds are not actually tested for "sharpness" but rather for "hardness". Specifically, there used to be an official test of cat killing done to determine if the dog was up to the task of dispatching a predator. Nowadays, the cat killing test is no longer done (officially), rather a "hardness" (härtenachweis or HN) certificate is issued for a dog that, in the course of a normal hunt, kills a fox or cat or other predator and it is witnessed by at least one other hunter who must sign a document to verify the kill. For a very detailed explanation of the härtenachweis certification see the North American DL club's website: http://www.dl-gna.org/Breed_Certification.htm (scroll down to Hartenachweis). As mentioned, Weimaraners are the only breed that must demonstrate a strong protective instinct (Schutztrieb) in order to satisfy breeding requirements. Until 2001 they had to pass a "man-sharpness" test (Mannscharfprufung) during which they were expected to stand up to a person making threatening movements towards them. The test was altered slightly and then renamed Wesentest for political reasons. For more information (sorry, its in German, use google language tools to translate) see: http://www.weimaranerzucht.de/level2/wesenstest.htm Here in North America, there is very little emphasis on selecting dogs with a strong urge to kill cats or foxes. I've been told by members of the Large Munsterlander club that they really doesn't want to go down that route and actually avoid breeding to really "hard" dogs. I get the impression that the GLP club of America has a similar outlook. The DL-GNA however is a branch of the German parent club so I am sure they will follow the official breeding regulations and certifications with regards to Hartenachweis in the same way the Drahthaar club over here does. |
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| tashap |
Sorry Peter the ones at the working tests were related but weren't the same as the two on the shoots that I've seen working  didn't make myself very clear The only other one I've seen if Annie's Biff but I have never heard him do the same thing either... and he's lovely
Very sad about the weim being killed  Certainly didn't know they made kavler jackets for dogs
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| Lynn |
Since the Pet Passport came in in 2000 seven German stud dogs have been used on Uk registered LMs
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| munstyman |
Langhaar wrote:
Whilst I agree with most of what you said Brenda, your sources are predominantly DL and therefore has the potential to be a tad bias wouldn't you say 
I think you mean Bb to Bb, as BB to Bb would result in all black but 50% carriers of brown.
Bill, what I was saying was that the LM/GLP have a less domesticated edge to them, in that they may have had less refinement by human interference in total `out crossing' to establish and tune the breed ( What would the foundation stock of the northern European wild hunting dog most look like in its original form. Would they be shorthaired, wirehaired or longhaired? would they be small bodied, medium bodied or large bodied?) However I do not base my `gut feeling' purely on the look of the dog but also in the way they work and indeed interact with both the human element and the rest of the dog world, it is very hard to put my finger on it, ( not being of scientific bent) but there is a difference, which while I see similarities in individuals of other breeds, its common through out the LMs ( and Langhaars glps I've seen) Note this is highlighted by the difference between the GLP and the `Dutch' LH whilst technically they are Longhairs they are IMO are as different as wirehairs and spinones 
As Karen said brown LM's can not participate in KC licenced GWT, FT's and shows so they do go to pet and working homes and fore fill their potential there, they can of course do the NAT
Tasha I did not think the two scenarios were related in `blood' but in `attitude'. Munsters are quick to vocalise when frustrated, especially when they are not being understood ( a bit like the English abroad if they can't speak the language, they repeat the same words and up the volume as if that helps ) The dogs giving tongue on live unshot game have been `nurtured' into this by not getting their early `finds' acknowledged appropriately. This is only in terms of the purist working, as you point out on this shoot it is an asset, and remember giving tongue on track and/or finding wounded or dead large game is a sought after trait with the breed. Baying unshot game is NOT a breed trait.
Peter |
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| lagopuslagopus |
That I do understand. | ||||
| chiendog |
Probably something like modern Elk Hounds used in the nordic countries to hunt elk (moose to us in North America). See http://www.rospigan.net/torsti0811.htm The longhaired HPR breeds are not really related to the Spitz-like dogs that were used thousands of years ago by northern european hunters (except very distantly since they all come from some sort of wolf way back when). They are in fact relatively modern variations on a theme. The various spaniels (epagneuls, munsters, drents, DL's) and setters (which are after all setting spaniels) trace their origins further south to what is now northern Spain/Southern France. They all come from a basic root stock that Gaston Febus described as "chiens d'oysels"...bird dogs. I've seen dogs that are very likely similar to the dogs Febus describes. The Pachon Navarro, or Old Spanish (double nosed) Pointers are most often seen with a short coat. There is however a longhaired version. I have photos of these dogs on my website here: http://www.craigkoshykphoto.ca/pachones08.html Photo # 7 is of a longhaired Pachon and would probably be recognizable to old Gaston if he were to see one today. |
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| windem bang |
If all of the modern pointing/setting breeds came from S. France and Spain, are all of the breed write ups about the Viszla being descended from Falconry dogs of nomadic horse peoples pure fabrication ?
I read that this was the case years ago in the breed "blurb." Breed blurb is an amazing thing. The owners of the first two G.S.P.'s I ever saw 40+ years ago ,told me that the breed was the best water dogs in the world because they had webbing between the toes and because their body temperature was higher than that of other dogs so they did not feel the cold !
We happened to be standing beside a large pond at the time so I asked to see a demonstration. I was told that, unfortunately, the dogs had not yet been taught to enter water !
Bill T. |
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| chiendog |
Like every little nugget of pseudo knowledge people like to throw around in an attempt to appear clever, the whole Viszlas came from Magyar hoards swarming across the plains thing is a mixture of misinterpretation of history, wishful thinking and ego stroking among some breed supporters. To be fair, there is a grain of truth in the notion. Nomadic peoples did migrate from east to west in the area that is now modern Hungary (for some reason those people are most often described as "hordes" and their migration was "swarming"...). And, like most cultures of the time, they had dogs that they used for hunting and other chores around the "swarm". Some members of the "horde" also hunted with falcons. And the word for hunting dog in their language was something like "Vizsla". So it is understandable how these things could add up to a very romantic history for the modern Vizsla and serve to glamorize the breed as some sort of exotic, ancient animal straight out of the kennels of Attila the Hun. Alas, there are a few holes in the story. I go into more detail in my chapter on the Vizsla, but in a nutshell, the dogs the Magyars used were not a specific breed (breeds as we know them today have only existed since about the 1850's) they were in all likelyhood a number of different types of hounds or running dogs used to hunt game in the way it was hunted at the time. There were no firearms, hence no real need for the kind of pointing dogs we have today. There were falcons, but dogs at that time were mainly used to flush game for the birds, not point it. The only description of the look of the dogs from that time is that some were "yellow". That's it. No description of size, coat type, shape...nothing but some "yellow hunting dogs". The Vizsla as we know it today was developed in the 1800's. It almost went extinct around the time of world war one and was then re-created pretty much from scratch. The link between the swarming hoard's yellow hunting dogs and the modern Vizsla is about as direct as the link between Stonehenge and The Rolling Stones. But lets not just pick on the Vizsla. Most breed histories, especially those found in the popular press, are usually pure fiction. This is due to a number of factors. 1. A part from a few vague references in the ancient literature and a handful of dusty paintings in museums, there is not a lot to go on. At least a dozen breed histories for example claim the same painting by Oudry or DesPortes as depicting their specific breed. Making categorical statements about the history of any breed before about 1875 is like a blind man groping his way through the lunch buffet at a nudist restaurant. 2. Knowledge of history and geography in the general public usually doesn't go much beyond knowing that the Beatles came from Liver...something...over there in Englishland. It is especially egregious in the US where in a recent survey, when people were "told they could escape an approaching hurricane by evacuating to the northwest, only a third could indicate which way northwest is on a map" http://news.nationalgeographic.co...006/05/0502_060502_geography.html and http://www.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/05/02/geog.test/index.html It is not much better in the UK http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/nov/14/uknews4.mainsection Knowledge of history is also very poor. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/1123738.stm 3. As I have alluded to before, one of the main functions of pure bred dogs is to stroke our egos. And what better way to lubricate each stroke than adding some romantic nuggets of pseudo-history replete with kings, queens and swarming hordes to the mix. I could go on and on, but I had better get back to the massive, never ending tome I've spent nearly a decade procrastinating about..... |
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| chiendog |
There are some fantastic claims out there. Among my favorites are those by some Weimaraner folks in the US that the breed was developed to hunt, among other things, cougars in the forests of Germany (hint: there are no cougars in Germany, never have been) and that its technique of deer hunting was to seize stags by the testicles as they ran. The webbed-foot thing is a classic. Everyone's breed is "unique" for having webbed feet. In fact most breeds have webbed feet and the difference in the actual structure of feet that are webbed and those that are not is very small...simply a matter of how much skin attaches the toes to each other. I've never heard the "higher body temperature" one but it's a gem! |
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| munstyman |
Chiendog you have my total respect, with writing like that I'll be another one awaiting with interest the purchasing of your book. Its so much easier to absorb information with a smile on your face
I went back and read the article you posted RE: early hunting dogs, I have to say the cave paintings were the spitting image of elkhounds...they haven't changed abit The later text on interaction and understanding between man and dog, man and wolf was of much more interest as it goes some way in what I was saying about LM's being `primitive'. I'm not saying they are just up the ladder from wolves ( which is why I use the term wild hunting dogs rather than wolves in the dogs ancestry) But I believe that it is not beyond the natural processes of migration and adaption that wild hunting dogs spread out and adapted and diversified to the various climates and environments in which they became established. This was then added to and accelerated with the development of man and their own migration and manipulation of the natural dog gene pool with which they encountered.
Without a time machine who can say for sure from which breed developed from which and what anomalies are yet to confound the purest of breeding lines Maybe thats why `dog' is an acronym, as its more about faith than fact
Peter |
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