| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Mike |
Make up of SRHPAn interesting message came through this morning on a Canine genetics list I am a member of regarding the make up of the SRHP, as most of us know it is typically thought of as a third weim, third Cesky fousek and a third GWP. It appears things might not be quiet so simple, this is the interesting snippet from the message:"Only in slovakia we can use orgin breeds, we simply use in 90 percent german wired pointer x weimaran, we try to avoid cesky fousek/ which is just variaty of german wired pointer/ because of problems with coat. But y can find sometimes we use german shortcoated pointer + pointer+ pudelpointer, but there are very strict rules in second generation we just keep working animals with appropriate exterrier." Really does look like they are going for working ability in the homeland! |
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| josie |
LOL, that doesn't surprise me 
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| windem bang |
Quote - " with appropriate exterrier." Wot kind of terrier is that Mike? Those guys really mean business!
Bill T. |
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| Helen |
lol Bill!
Being a bit controversial here, isn't the SRHP like the labradoodle then? Well, even worse at it isn't an exact cross? I don't personally get the point of this dog (sorry if I offend anyone!) but if it's been going for so long, why haven't they sorted it out? Helen |
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| windem bang |
Speaking personally I like the idea that there are still people out there making an effort to bring on a breed. That is how all of our dogs originally got here and I have no objection to anyone trying again to "invent" a breed of gundogs. Maybe the breeders will succeed and produce an absolutely cracking breed. If I was younger I would be only too keen to get a pup to see just how much it is better than our present dogs. 
Bill T. |
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| Mike |
Hi Helen,
I've actually managed to chop out an imoprtant bit of info:
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| Helen |
Not very forward thinking of them, was it?
Just being argumentative today lol
Helen |
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| chiendog |
Well I will be a bit contrary then...
All "pure" dog breeds are like the labradoodle. The ones that aren't are called "wolves".
What is an exact cross?
Please provide a list of breeds that are "sorted out". I contend that there is not one, single, solitary breed of dog that is completely sorted out. None are "pure", nor are there ANY breeds that do not have to deal with the genetic issues raised by 'pure" breeding. Every breed can be considered a work in progress. Some have enjoyed longer periods of relative stability than others but many have had to deal with issues that have set them back. In the case of the SRHP it would seem to me that things like a world war and 50+ years of communism may have thrown a wrench or two into the works. Fortunatly nowadays, the SRHP in Slovakia is, for the most part, in the hands of dedicated, hard core hunters who know a good dog when they see one. They are intent on breeding dogs that fit their ideal. I've been to Slovakia, I've seen their dogs. In my humble opinion they are on the right track. I applaud their efforts and their forward thinking attitude. The only reservation I have about the breed is the very real threat that it will be co-opted by the show crowds in the UK, France etc. and reduced to a fat assed couch sitting caricature of its former self. Of course, all of the above is just my opinion. I could be drunk. |
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| chiendog |
The issue with the cesky fousek coat being alluded to is a condition known as alopecia. It manifests itself as bald patches, usually on the flanks. I spoke to Dr. Dostal, the renowned genetic expert and modern day "father" of the cesky fousek breed about the condition. He indicated that the problem was very real in the breed but that they have now come close to eliminating it completely. Among the 30+ fouseks I saw, none appeared to have alopecia. I did however observe it in two SRHP's. |
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| windem bang |
If you're drunk, drink more often.....I enjoyed reading that  
Bill T. |
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| Helen |
[quote]ll "pure" dog breeds are like the labradoodle. The ones that aren't are called "wolves".
[/quote I don't agree. Pure breeds are ones that have been breeds for a long time and you don't get massive variations like you do with the labradoodle.
I would like to say the gwp is "sorted out". You breed a gwp with a gwp and you get a gwp looking dog. The SRHP, you get different coats, different lengths and they are still putting in crosses after all these years of trying to establish a breed. THAT is what I can't understand.
I do too and totally agree with you about the show fraternity. Going back to my original statement, I can't understand that after all this time, they are still putting in various crosses to sort it out. Surely it didn't take all this time to "sort out" the gwp for instance? Helen |
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| windem bang |
In this country the G.W.P. due to its original lack of numbers was crossed to the G.S.P. I am certain of this because I attended a lecture given by one of the men who did this. He was quite matter of fact about it and not at all repentant. I know that sometimes Wirehairs are bred that seem to be throwbacks to this, they aren't quite hairy enough! Since this was this countries foundation stock there must, by now, be a fair bit of it about.
I doubt if it's done the breed any real harm and personally I have no objection to it, that's just me though! 
Bill T. |
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| josie |
Having only 1, I can't claim to be a SRP devotee yet, but the reason I understand they are still breeding in other breeds is because they need a wider gene pool of dogs. Basically there are various different "lines" in Slovakia, let's call them A, B and C. They need more choice of possible dogs to breed from to widen the gene pool, so they have had to create a new line. This has meant recreating the breed from scratch. This is my understanding of it and I do hope I have it right.
There is more info on Michal Urban's website: http://www.slovenskystavac.sk/ Go here and click on the UK flag, then scroll down to About the breed. You will see he says that in 2005 they began to create this new line by combining again the 3 original breeds. |
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| chiendog |
How long is a long time? Who decides how long is enough?
Really? You mean like these GWP'S? 
Let's not forget that the GWP is arguably not even a breed. The name is a an English translation of Deutsch Drahthaar (with the word "Pointer" tacked on the end). However, the offspring of Drahthaars that are not tested in the VDD program are not actually considered to be part of the breed. They are, in the opinion of the parent club in the country of origin, "mutts". Also, the Drahthaar (GWP) is among the youngest of the HPR's, (club formed in 1903). Is that long enough for "pure" status even though for the first 60 years breeders were allowed to breed Pudlepointer, Griffon, Stichelhaar and GSP into their lines (some still do)?
The GWP is not very different. You still get great variations in coat and breeders are still putting in crosses. The only difference is that the Slovaks are doing it openly (as were the Germans until, I believe the 1970's when the DD studbook was closed). In America, the majority of GWP's in the field trial circuit are almost all white with 12 o'clock tails and the run of an English Pointer. Me thinks there is still some sorting out to do.
I have now studied every single HPR breed on the continent. I have seen them with my own eyes and have spoken to breeders of them all. I have come to the conclusion that all of them have "put in various crosses" at one time or another. Most, if not all, are still doing so. Truth be told, my wife and I are personally involved in a program to "sort out" the Pont Audemer Spaniel, a breed that has been tinkered with since day one, way back in the 1850's. I firmly believe that no breed is completely sorted out. None will ever be. All breeds will remain works in progress forever since in order to keep a breed "pure" we must always struggle against nature's preference for heterozygosity. Once again, it may be the drink doing the typing. |
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| Bareve |
The dog which was used in the "real" early days was Chang who had a GSP father - Blitz of Long Sutton although he was a registered GWP. Certainly no official GWP/GSP breeding have been done since my association with the breed in 1976.
We still do get the odd throw back of different coats - the occasionaly smooth and the more than frequent wooly coat - someone mum speaking to this week said that his 6 month olds puppy had a 4 inch coat !!!! Sharon
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| Bareve |
Interesting choice of photos - two GWP's certainly from America and one official DD - shame not an English dog was used
It certainly is more of a breed when it was first created and recorded in the DGStB (German Versatile Hunting Dog Record Book) in 1892. On May 15th 1902 they created the Verein Deutsch Drahthaar (German Wirehaired Club) and certainly used a lot of crosses with Stichelhaars, Griffons, Pudelpointers, Kurzhaars and on modern day pedigree you will have the dog/bitch's motherline shown on i.e. Stichelhaar, Pudelpointer.
This is correct but even progeny of fully tested DD's in the homeland are just as varied to look at and can be mistaken for other breeds such as Griffons, Kurzhaars - so they may not be official mutts but they sure look more like mutts than what they should.
VDD created on May 15th 1902. I'm sure there will be some "off the record" breeding taking place worldwide in all breeds but on the official line the Germans no longer cross other breeds and certainly not with the perfomance breeding litters.
We still do get variation in coats ...... and types, and sizes, and temperaments, and working ability - does that make us unique I don't think so I think it's called breeding and genetics I do think the reputable established German DD breeders are "not" putting in crosses - well certainly not the breeders within the North Bayern group that I'm a member of!
Yes you are quite right and the big time F/T professional handlers will sell a smooth coated GWP to a big paying client as they are much easier to keep clear of cockleburrs - less looking after time and more hunting time than spending a hour afterwards taking each sticky off their legs, beards, bellies. The 12 o'clock tails have been bred into as it's generally the only thing you can see when the dog, who is cruising the horizon, goes on point - another reason why the American F/T's are conducted on horseback. |
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| Mike |
Wouldn't it be closer to the truth to say that you wll always get variation in the coats? Because the "correct" wirehair coat (as I understand it anyway) requires a number of genes to be heterozygous rather than the homozygous genes required to fix "type". So there is and will be forever more variation in coat in the Wirehair breeds. |
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| kiwi |
in terms of the allround hunting dog the germans set out to breed, the english bred stuff still does the job...i have proof sleeping outside in there kennels, all my dogs have chang in there pedigree and for the type of dogs he has given this country he done well for a mutt.
those pictures of the american gwp are best left for a dd vs gwp debate in america as the difference to my dogs are easy enough to see, the english pointer was not one of the breeds used in the gwp/dd but it seems to have played a big part in the awp,american wirehaired pointer 
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| Bareve |
Yes Mike there will always been a variation in coats. Just in the same way that you get variation of all sorts of things when breeding as there are so many factors to think about - some having an immediate affect on the resulting litter or those little boogers coming from recessive genes that spring up on us without us seeing them
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| Bareve |
I agree with this - I'm more than happy with my DD and I'm just as happy with my DD/GWP mutts
As for the AWP - horses for courses - it suits the american F/T people just as much as the DD suits the versatile hunter people.
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