Louilou
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Master Grey's trainingI've started training with helen phillips of clicker gundog and so far we've seen a change for the better in young master grey, who is definitely now a kevin. We've been to two sessions and we go monthly as it's a 10 hour round trip with the training on top.
He's on a structured programme of twice daily shorter sessions of 25 -30 mins.
Only let off and released if calm with a release cue. He's reinforced for a series of voluntary check ins with me free running. Lots of long line work. Nearly knocked myself out as went flying few weeks ago when I messed up the line and flock of geese flew overhead. Argh.
He's parked on the lead if he acts like a loon and we wait for him to check in with me again, then more response to name check ins before being let off.
Do little sessions at home throughout the day working on response to name, recall.
This last session has seen the addition of calming circle walking where I walk in an oval shape with the lead centered and at waist level and don't allow him to pull me off balance. Do this for 20 mins and ignore any behaviour and keep walking at a slow pace. He really played up and ended up mouthing me the first time. But the second time at home he did it without reacting badly.
So far he seems to have improved massively on the line. No longer running at full pelt and having me over. Much better recall and response to name. Less humping at home and calmer in the car. We shall see how the calming walk thing goes. He has to master this before we work on further leadwalking.
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josie
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Sounds like good progress Lou. Would be interesting to read about how things go in future - why don't you make this thread into a training diary for him, or at least update us on each session with Helen?
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Greyghost
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Pleased it seems to be working for you Lou. I am interested in some lessons from Helen myself. Thankfully I am a lot closer than you. 
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Lisa
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Sounds like your really putting in the work Lou! Good for you! Yes, keep us informed how you are getting on! 10 hrs!  I thought I was the mentalist traveller for training!! 
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Louilou
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Thanks guys! Kind of feel like I really have to as he's feeling pretty unmanageable if I don't do something! He's very determined young fella!
Today I picked him up from Kennels where he had had an overnight stay. He really loves it there. Which is a relief. I did a session of relaxation walking with him in my back garden for 20 mins. No fussing.
Later we went out to our training field at the cricket club that I've rented. It's not what you country folk would call countryside, but for my purposes it's dog free and secure. It is flanked by a road that has some passing traffic on it and we're having to work on Grey's reactivity to traffic and fast moving vehicles. He goes into chase mode now and it's a bit of a bother because you have to really be prepared for it with him at just over 30kg and putting his full force into it. There is a train at the bottom of Helen's training field and he does the same there too.
I misjudged the gravel underfoot in the parking lot and so he managed to slip away from me when we 'd got out of the car and I was fiddling with my bag. Argh. Off he shot charging along the side of the boundary fence chasing cars. I managed to get him back and decided against letting him free run again as there were some people that had turned up at the cricket field and it was just too distracting. So we did some more calming circles which seemed to work, response to name and reinforcement for calm behaviour at each passing car. I would have long lined him but I ran out of time.
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Greyghost
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Blimey he sounds a right handful or have I just forgotten what a youngen is like. Abbie used to give chase to vehicles at one time and Holly gave it a go recently. Teaching the stop whistle helps but distractions are hard to get over, especially if they are just now and then.
He sounds like he is taking the preverbial with you at times. I know you are all for positive reinforcement but are you being firm enough? I had my eyes opened a bit at a recent gundog training day and whilst I had to do some pulling on the lead, which believe me went against all my beliefs, I can see that there are times when you just need to show them you aint gonna be messed about.
Do you get to go out with other dog handlers? I learnt a lot watching other people. I also learnt what I wouldn't want to do too. 
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Louilou
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Hiya,
Yes, we're working through his willful ways. He gets parked on the lead if he's being a loon, pushy etc. We wait it out until he can reconnect. Then work on being able to look at me. He only gets let off if he's calm and then he's released. No jerking of the lead, but holding it in a way where he can't pull me off balance.
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josie
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You have my full sympathy Lou.
Here is an amusing anecdote: I'm outside with Slate on the lead, waiting for her to do a wee. A family of 2 kids and mum and dad approach me and I totally don't recognise them. (I seem to only recognise people with their dogs!) They remind me that they are in my current puppy training class (!) and I say hello to them. At this point Slate decides to behave like a loon, doing tucky-under-bum zoomies on her lead. "So." They say: "Is this one yours, or is this one you're training up for someone?". "Oh, she's mine", I say. Then they say, looking at her: "All that puppy-ish enthusiasm!" I say: "Oh, she'll be be 5 yrs old in October" LOL 
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Greyghost
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They certainly know how to show you up that's for sure.
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windem bang
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[quote="josie"]You have my full sympathy Lou.
quote]
You have mine too and I admire your determination to "conquer" without the use of force.
I will now tell a wee story against myself. Back when the world was young and nobody had even heard of C.T. I got a big,young ,male border collie from the cat and dog home.
He chased everything, cats, bicycles ,cars , corporation buses and railway trains. I began training him not to chase them. I was very quickly successful at having him give in chasing everything except the trains.
At that time I had started doing obedience training for competition. We were doing very well . He won Pre-beginners and then beginners and Test A first time out. But the other club members knew of his train chasing and began ,for a laugh, to make choo - choo noises when he was doing down stays.......... !
I decided I'd better do something about his train chasing too. The reason he still chased them was that he wasn't getting enough practice not to. By using the easy availabilty of cars etc. And a good strong choke chain and lead plus some good timing and muscle power he had very quickly learned that chasing cars etc. was a big no-no.
Trains were different . He would see one pass by a couple of hundred yards away and just leave me - even after all that obedience work to chase it. The only reason I got him back again - usually about half an hour later , was that he'd chased another train coming back towards me ! No, I'm not kidding !
I went down to the big public park with the railway line at the far end to begin his anti-train training. This was right beside the main Edinburgh to Glasgow line so I reasoned I'd get him to see a lot of trains within a short period and would therefor be able to do a lot of correcting that would stick in his mind.
I began doing bits of obedience ring work to pass the time until a train came . After about two hours of this the Park keeper came up to me and asked what I was doing. I told him but said that I hadn't seen a train yet....................he said I wasn't likely to as the Engine Drivers had gone on strike that morning !!! I felt a right twit !  
I did eventually get him to stop chasing trains . I wanted him to start to think of them as unpleasant so I attached a short cord to each side of a plain leather collar . The other ends of the cord were tied to about a foot and a half to two feet of 2 X 2 inches square timber. All I did was sit him in the park ,move a bit away and wait for the train.
When he chased the length of timber banged his chin and his shins as he ran . He stopped running and began to listen to me. From there it was lead work and repetition. It did work - the choo-choo noises from outside the ring stopped !
I know this is not your way of doing things but I thought you might like to know that others have had the same worrying problems.
Good luck.
Bill T.
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Louilou
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Thanks Bill and Josie - I do sometimes worry and get the odd stomach churning moment that I really am not going to cope! him being my first dog and all and trying to do things this way.
This morning's training session was interesting. He started to look at the cars a lot while on the lead and so I did the relaxation walk again round the bollards and it really worked. I was then able to let him off and go throigh our usual routine without him chasing.
I did then have to have him on the beach for a tv doc we;re being filmed for (DO NOT ASK! I"M MAD!) and the director said he'd never seen such a crazy dog!
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Louilou
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Argh. He managed to run over to a lab on a flexi tonight that I hadn't spotted in time. Wouldn't come back and started humping the poor dog. I hate flexis for being difficult to see, but also really am failing with a strategy to manage to socialise him a few times a week around other dogs and manage to have him not run in to on-lead dogs. Scooped him up and marched him back to the car and home, where he miraculously turns into nice dog again.
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