Mastering the Stop

Lisa · Mastering the Stop

As we have only just got into training with Blu, I am having to teach everything to him him now at such a late stage. He has responded to most things really well!

I am now teaching him the Stop on the whistle. He has responded to this while training him at home and we have now moved to the garden which, again he is ok with. I am finding it a little difficult with it out on a field. There is just so much going on that when he hears the whistle and I put my hand up to stop him he just comes back to me as if I have called him! Rolling Eyes

I have been taking him back to where he was when I have stopped him and then walk back and blow the stop, then go back up and praise him. Is this ok? And is there anything else I can be doing to get the stop on cue?

Also, as the stop isn't enforced just yet how do I control him if he suddenly bolts for a rabbit? He has got better at this with 'leave it' but yesterday he was quartering really well until he saw a rabbit out the corner of his eye and was gone Shocked

even before I could see where it was! Should I keep him on a long line until he has steadied?

Sorry for all the questions Rolling Eyes

I have so much to learn!! Shocked

Helen

Re; the stop. Teal was like that - come back to me when I blew the stop whistle. I sorted it by getting Rob to hold her on lead, while I walked away. I would turn round, and blow the stop whistle. She tried to get to me but obviously couldn't so Rob pushed her bum down. It only took about a week of this for her to realise that blowing the stop whistle doesn't mean coming back and sitting at my feet.

Is he sitting next to you in the field? When you blow the stop? If he isn't, get him onto that before you do any distance work with him.

If you are in rabbity areas and she isn't steady, I would keep him on lead. If he gets into chasng rabbits, it's going to be a hard habit to break. I would use the rabbity area as a good training ground.

Helen

cressy

I would say from what you wrote that you have upped the criteria a little too quick in the open.

Go back to him sitting closer too you and bum hitting ground very fast before stopping him an extra pace away and build that very very slowly. At the same time though remember to keep reinforcing your recall as you may lose that if he expects to stop Rolling Eyes

. Also try to find a field that is very boring as a transition from garden to more distracting field.

With my pup I make a judgement call, if I see a rabbit or deer before him I will blow my Stop and 95% he will, if he is already running after game his stop isn't reliable enough and as I don't want him to learn to ignore me I just don't use the whistle yet if I feel there is any chance of him ignoring me. Mind you, I am lucky to have very safe ground which is a help.

guy · Re: Mastering the Stop

Lisa

Thanks for the quick responses!! Very Happy

Helen, I have been sitting him and then walking backwards a little way from him and then blowing the stop, then returning to him to praise him and then walking back a little further, repeating this a few times. After he does this I then call him to me and then blow the stop and he will sit when I do this (in the garden) not super fast but he gets the idea.

Sue, I think you're right about upping the criteria too soon. It was just that he had got it so well at home I was too tempted to try it in the field Rolling Eyes

I know now not to try and run before I can walk Embarassed

When you say sit him closer to me do you maen do it when walking to heel? Or just not move that far from him? Sorry! I just want to be able to get it right before I start it with him! Embarassed

Thanks for the link Guy that was really useful. He can sit to a short peep of the whistle to heel so shall I just do that with him but lengthen the whistle sound?

Thanks for your patience!! Very Happy

Helen

Lisa

I blow the whistle as he is coming to me. Like I said he does this fine in the garden, just not in the field Rolling Eyes

he will walk all the way to me when we are out Rolling Eyes

I think I need to keep going in the garden for a while? Work on getting his bum down super fast like Sue suggests before taking him out.

As for the rabbit problem, instead of the whistle (until I have mastered it) shall I just use 'leave it' and praise as I have been doing but while he is on the long line?

Helen, I am extremely impatient Embarassed

so this is also teaching me a huge lesson too!! Laughing

cressy

I prefer to start teaching the Stop with the dog initially by my side moving in the same direction and gradually extending the distance so the dog is a pace or two ahead and increasing from there.

At the same time although in a different session I will keep working on Sit to get the dog sitting quickly on the whistle in the garden, on general walks, when a bird moves and when a bunny moves if the dog is on a closish lead so you can immediately correct it if it is sluggish, you can use the same whistle cue regardless of what context you are in as you want the dog to be able to stop anywhere, anytime regardless of the provocation to run.

The other thing I do is make sure the dog has got rid of that first blast of energy, it needs to be fresh enough to concentrate but especially when starting out you don't necessarily want one that is haring about everywhere as you are setting it up to fidget and break its position.

What I don't do when training the Stop is have more than one dog out at a time, I rarely train anyway with more than one to concentrate on but certainly not for Stop training.

Lisa

Thanks Sue!

He is pretty good at sitting quick enough when I use one short peep on the whistle when we are doing heel work, so I will carry on using it how you have suggested.

I never have my other dog with me when we are training as Blu has 0 concentration when she is with us! When we are out on our own he is a totally different dog! Listens more and takes things in.

windem bang

I agree 100% with Sue on the one dog out at a time thing , I think the rule applies if you intend doing any training at all with a pup.

This rule is one I have broken several times with my own dogs - and regretted it .

Bill T.

Claire

I also used a long training line when teaching the stop.

One thing you cannot be when teaching the stop, IME, is impatient Laughing

I was told that teaching the stop whistle is one of the hardest things to teach and by god that has been very true for me. My young wei bitch (she's called Whistle but I'll refrain from using her name Laughing

) is 2½yrs old now and I would say only these past 2 - 3 mths has she started sitting more reliably, but having said that I would still say her stop whistle is not that great. I just keep plugging away because although it has taken me forever, I can see improvements, so I feel I will get there eventually. She is such a sensitive bitch that to give her a bollocking for not stopping is difficult because she crumples and switches off, so I have used food as a reward, not all the time but sometimes and that has really helped.

DesO'Neile · The drop.

http://glencuanpointers.wordpress.com/2004/05/22/the-drop/

I have taken the liberty of inserting a link to a bit of my web site which deals with this very problem.
I have to say that while there are many useful tips in the above comments they are to my way of thinking a bit disjointed. I use as an example the use of a long line. A long line is a useful piece of kit but it is about step twenty and the idea of starting the drop while the dog is walking at heel is to my way of thinking incorrect.
I start by showing/teaching the dog exactly, and I do mean exactly, what I require of it when I give the command and I repeat, almost ad nauseam, each step until it is so ingrained as to produce an almost unthinking response. I also teach virtually nothing until the drop is perfected as it is the foundation of all my subsequent training.

guy · Re: Mastering the Stop

Lisa

Talk about great minds!! Laughing

Helen S

I totally agree with Des in that the dog must first understand exactly that the whistle means "STOP" and drop. You can teach this very well with rewards. Then you practice, practice, practice and as you up the criteria you WILL have to get firmer to get the instant reaction.

This is not a command you are training it is an order. If the dog does not respect the order, the reaction will break down under severe distraction which is when you most need it. The success of this part of your training is as much a safety thing as a gundog training skill and for the sake of a course of short but strict sessions to reinforce the "STOP" you could save yourself a lot of heartache later on.

Helen S

Lisa

Yes, I totally agree, which is why I posted my problem on here. He seems to have taken to all the other basic training we have done so far. Now he has that, I need to concentrate on getting the stop absolutely solid before moving onto anything else.

Can I just ask, does it have to be a 'down' position or can it be a sit? Are their benefits to one in particular?

Helen S

I trained Liesel to sit, partly so that the same whistle command could be used to train sit to flush, shot etc. Also it came more easily than a complete drop because she already sat at heel etc. Now I notice if I am near the dog and a hare flushes she drops flat as she realises I will be "very unhappy" if she is tempted to chase.

Helen S

windem bang

The dog can just sit Lisa, read Des's article and you will see why, for him ,it should be down. You are not training a pointer or a setter. A sitting dog is one stage nearer to running in but it is also often able to see and mark the fall of game more easily than a downed dog.

Bill T.

Bareve

Use whichever the dog is happiest in doing. Freddy has always dropped to the stop whistle and I've always been happy with that. The only time he goes into a sit is when he has flushed a bird and it's been shot and he remains sitting so he can mark the fall.

All my others go into a sit although I am aware that the sit is much closer to a run in than a down Very Happy

Helen

I always get mine to sit, rather than down. I don't teach my dogs down at all. However, Rob's dog will go into the down position so we do allow that as she feels more comfortable with it.

Helen

windem bang

I have had a few dogs that were natural downers. I never train for a down but these dogs just did it. I left them alone and they soon taught themselves to sit in order to see falling birds or running rabbits better.

Bill T.

Helen

I was wondering if Tia would do that Bill.

Helen

Lisa

Thats good, I thought I was going to have to start all over again with teaching the down Shocked

Will carry on with sit and have read through Des's article which does help.

Thanks again all for your help! It's been great!! I will keep you all posted how training is or isn't going!! Very Happy

sashalgwps

Bareve

Helen

Do you think the down is more of a submissive thing? Tia can be quite submissive at times and I wondered if that was the case?

Helen

Helen S

Yes Helen I would definitely think it was to do with submission - or lack of it if you are talking about my dog!

Helen S

Bareve

Yes Helen/s I think it is more of a submissive thing as Freddy does try so hard to do things right and what I want him to do whereas his two eldest children are quite stubborn and then I get the "do I have to sit here and now" look.

I can't seem to think when Freddy first started it - must have been in that first month where we were learning joint commands <LOL>

Helen

You have described Teal to a "T" but she will sit, although she does show it in different ways really.

I was doing some dummy work with her yesterday and sat her in front of me. I threw the dummy over her head. She got up (without the command) and ran towards it but just before she got to it, she seemed to realise she should be sat, and sat. She turned round, dipped her head and looked at me lol! Bless her.

That dog is teaching me an AWFUL lot about body language!

Helen

sako75

My dog does the "down" only when I am sprinting towards her to give her a roasting !! She instantly flops down , curls up and gives me her innocent puppy dog eyes whilst wagging her tail furiously - I usually have to laugh at her , she is a real cheeky little so and so.

Barry.

Lisa

I just wanted to let you know that Blu is finally getting the hang of the stop!! Hooray!! Laughing

He will now sit to the whistle at around 30 yards from me! I know it's not too far but it's such an improvement from when I first started this post!

One question I do have! When I peep him to stop, he sometimes will just stop what he is doing and look at me, without sitting but he is watching me. If I peep him again while he is watching me he will then sit Rolling Eyes

Is this ok for him to do this or do I go over to him and correct him by getting him to sit? He doesn't do it everytime, just if he is having a good sniff at something and I catch him unaware! If he can see me about to blow the whistle and then I do he will sit straight away!

Helen

Woohooo, I've found that the longer it takes, the more steady they are.

Here is where I do things different with different dogs. With Pippa, my springer, I'm momre than happy for her to stop and look at me...her stopping is an achievement when she's off on one lol. However, with Teal, I am more strict and if she doesn't stop and sit, I run at her or if she's a distance from me, I raise my hand and she will sit. I want a 100% stop for her and am more strict with her.

Helen

Bareve

Just remember if you "always" need a second command (verbal or whistle) to make a dog sit then that soon conditions to a stop/sit command "needing" two commands.

At this stage I would be ready to "run out" at him the moment he contemplates just standing so that he "thinks" you are getting out to him for the reminder. As soon as he sits then stop and continue what you were going to do.

We do tend to take the easy action and that's to blow a second whistle rather than physically run out there but as I said above it does then mean the dogs takes two commands to comply.

As they become more reliable and especially if they are on a retrieve if a dog does stop and doesn't necessarily sit I would occasionally allow them to stand prior to re-direction but on the whole if I want a sit to whistle then I want them to sit.

HTH

Greyghost

Holly tends to stop sometimes instead of sit and when she finally decides to look at me I have the hand signal to back it up. She is pretty good with the sit though, just a bit latent with the first couple and then gets into her stride. She gets a quick release if she does a quick sit.

Lisa, whilst still learning it is a good idea to set them up not to fail, i.e. if they are sniffing or there is a diversion try not to do a recall or sit until they lift their head. They are more likely to ignore you if they are busy. It must be quite difficult to get them to stop in a real live hunting situation, never had the chance to try it yet, although I have managed to get her to sit when she has seen her biggest enemy the airedale terrier:twisted:

What annoys me most is sometimes I give a command but a drink in the river or pee comes first....... Rolling Eyes

Two fingers or what Exclamation

fat belly frog

Coopers picked up the stop whistle pretty quick over the last couple of months around the house, yard and local park, a peep and he will stop and look at me then sit. Hes ok in the feild if not hard on a sent and just ranging about, But all this goes out the door once we get into more interesting country and he has his nose to the ground.

Do I just keep at it until he gets it and how can i reinforce it on the more gamey places?

cheers

Helen

I always do basic stuff when in gamey areas to start off with. I always make sure I try and not let them fail. If they are doing the easy stuff well and ignore me after that, I run at them and take them back to where I blew the whistle and blow it again.

Helen

Mastering the Stop

Re: Mastering the Stop

The drop.

Re: Mastering the Stop