| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| chiendog |
Myth-Busting: The Grand Duke and the Grey Ghost.Hi All,So I spent most of the weekend trying to tie up a few loose ends in the weim chapter of my mega-huge-never-ending® book project. Just when I thought it was ready to send it to the editor, I decided to dig a weee bit deeper into the story of good old Grand Duke Carl August and the Weim he supposedly created. And wouldn't ya know it, as soon as I looked beyond the usual propaganda repeated in Weim circles for decades, the whole story began to unravel. I now consider the myth BUSTED. The Grand Duke, IMHO, wouldn't have known a Weim from a Whippet. Read the rant here: http://chiendog.blogspot.com/ |
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| BenB |
Neither did a chap I met out walking the other day - pointed at my greyhound x lurcher - "nice weimeraner".
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| chiendog |
CAREFUL NOW! if you take the following phrase: greyhound x lurcher - "nice weimeraner" repeat it often enough, loud enough and publish it in some sort of breed "bible" a new myth may be born:
The Grand Duke Charles "Ben" August of Sachsen-Weimar-Gloucestershire created the Weimaraner by crossing greyhounds with lurchers and ancient German cougar-dogs..... |
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| BenB |
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| countrygirl |
Perhaps thats your way forward to making money Ben 
Caz |
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| Mike |
So what does the Weimaraner Klub e.V. have to say about the origins of the Weimar?
Isn't it possible that whilst his influence on the breed may be important (or not), it may have been limited to those working in his employ or a passing interest? I kind of think to most non dog people a strong interest in a breed would warrant barely a mention in the life of someone "important"? Whilst the proof may be scarce "Absence of proof is not proof of absence." 
Personally I feel the history of the Weim is less important than the future of the breed... |
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| chiendog |
German reference material in general is fairly circumspect with regards to whatever roll the Grand Duke, or indeed, any of his fellow nobles may have played in the development of the Weim. It is in the US, and to a lesser degree, in the UK that the more or less unsubstantiated link between Charles August and the Weim is taken as gospel.
Maybe...maybe not. The fact is, we do not know and those who claim that he practically created the entire breed with a wave of his magic wand never, ever, ever, provide any solid evidence for their claims. At best, they trot out the same tired engraving or dusty painting and conclude that any dog in it is a Weim.
The proof that an old man in a red suit slides down my chimney every Dec. 25th is scarce indeed. But the absence of proof does not prove he does NOT slide down my chimney. But as we all know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And some breed histories contain pretty categorical statements: "The Grand Duke Carl August certainly played an important role in breeding and establishing Weimaraners as the special prerogative of the German aristocracy". Weimaraner Ways But what exactly is this statement based on? Is in not in complete opposition to the positions of Herber and Kleeman, arguably the most knowledgeable experts in Germany in the early days of the breed? One would expect there to be a pretty big smoking gun proving them wrong. But where is it? What is the source that confirms the claim that not only was the Duke somehow associated with the breed but "played an important role in breeding" them? If there is evidence to support this position, why is it not presented? It seems to me that there are only two answers: 1. Evidence that the Duke played an important role in the breeding of Weimaraners is so scare, or so highly secret, that only anointed authors of weim bibles or gifted literary detectives have access to it or 2. The whole Grand Duke connection is a crock.
Agreed. But I also feel that the best way to move forward is with a clear understanding of what we are working with... a grey hunting dog that has it's own set of strengths and weaknesses. Why must we pretend that we are dealing with a "noble" race of super-dog created by some fancy-pants Duke? |
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| Mike |
You are correct that the abscence of proof doesn't prove that he doesn't slide down the chimney, however the laws of physics do prove that it is impossible for him to visit everyones house in one night and observation (i.e. looking at your chimney on the 25th, is a dodgy old man found in your living room at 3am etc.)will show that he doesn't come specifically down your chimney alone. Personally I feel that if the Weim Klub don't think it is of import then it probably isn't... |
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| Greymaster |
Re: Myth-Busting: The Grand Duke and the Grey Ghost.
So, YOU consider the myth BUSTED. So what? 
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| chiendog |
Yes. I do. And my opinion on the matter is just that, an opinion. If you hold a different opinion, so be it. Or should I say, "so what?" Please keep in mind that I have done my (humble) best to investigate the issue before forming my opinion. As much as possible, I've weighed the available evidence specific to the Weim (and the Duke) and have considered the issue in the broader context of the overall family of continental pointers (HPR's). What I found was complete silence from the Duke and his court, unsubstantiated claims from (mainly) North American sources and the same tendency to latch on to the nearest nobleman/king/Duke/Earl found in most of the other HPR breeds*. So my conclusion is this: If any connection between the weim and the Duke does exist, it is very weak. But in an effort to play up the exclusivity of the breed, especially in the post war years in the US when the Madison Avenue marketing steam roller really got going, people saw what they wanted to see in dusty old paintings, embellished old stories, made up new ones and then repeated them all until they became "fact". Now, if someone were to provide evidence to support an opposing argument, I'm certainly willing to re-examine my position. Until then however, I guess the only arguments I'll get are ad hominem. *Remember, the Weim is not the only breed to claim a near royal origin. Cesky Fousek histories always point to a letter about a King sending Bohemian dogs to a friend (5 centuries before the breed actually existed!), Some Braque d'Auvergne histories claim their breed was brought back from the holy land by Templar Knights (if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you...) Many people believe that Baron Sigismund von Zeidlitz und Neukirch created the Pudelpointer (he didn't, but he certainly encouraged others to do so). Kurzhaar people regard Prinz Albrecht zu Solms-Braunfels the "father" of their breed. And the connection is well established by reams of documents. But no one seems to mention that he was also the "father" of many other breeds. The Prince was famous for his Teckels, he registered the first dog in Germany's new stud book (a St. Bernard), he supported Korthals in the creation of the Griffon and he owned one of the largest Pointer and Setter kennels in Europe. |
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| Ghilliegumdrop |
The proof that an old man in a red suit slides down my chimney every Dec. 25th is scarce indeed. But the absence of proof does not prove he does NOT slide down my chimney.
Everyone knows about time/date lines so there is plenty time for Father Christmas to reach each and every person who believes in him.....anybody who doesn't can just go get their pressie from the local shop  In anycase several countries have Christmas present giving on different days so he can spread it out and some countries don't even have Christmas so he can save even more time there. Any way I once saw Mommy kissing him so there 
Mind you he'd have trouble sliding down most chimneys now-a-days as they are blocked up because people have central heating I just leave the back door open and stick a note on the window to tell him where to find his mincepie and beer
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| chiendog |
Ok, so we've definitely established it:
The Weimaraner was created by The Grand Duke Saint Nicholas von der North Pole sometime after midnight on Dec. 25th 1828. And here is a painting from the era proving it. 
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| tashap |
I was always told that the Grand Duke was given some weimaraners by someone from France that he visited but that his then keeper maintained and improved the breed keeping them exclusively for the nobleman to hunt over, I suppose the role that he played was that he maintained the breed till they were registered by the germans who formed the first Weimaraner Club.
No one really knows the origins of the Weimaraner thats always been the point. A lot of the data and historical documents were supposed to have been lost in the war so we may never really know where they came from. I like to keep an open mind about it because you can't prove it either way there were alot of dogs that didn't have a clarification that far back. Might be worth asking Virginia Alexander where she got her info from she's been privvy to libraries and information the rest of us don't readily have access to. |
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| chiendog |
The French story is one of several such "Duke got dogs from so and so" tales. Another, oft repeated legend is that it was Prince Ezsterhazy von Auersber that presented the Duke some dogs from Bohemia. Some Vizsla supporters use this nugget of information to claim that the Weim descends from their breed.
By the time the Weimaraner Klub was formed in 1897 the Grand Duke had been dead for nearly 70 years. During his lifetime, not a single word was ever written by him or his hunt masters or even by such renowned hunt masters as Carl Diezel about any grey dogs at his court whatsoever. It was only many years later, long after the Duke was dead and buried, and the breed fully recognized by the Delegate Commission, that people began to credited him with the creation of the Weimaraner. But one must remember that all those claims also state that he created it by crossing an English Pointer with a shorthaired German hunting dog! Somehow, the cross breeding story never really caught on...but the Grand Duke angle sure did.
A history shrouded by the mists of time is not unique to the Weimarener. Most of the hpr breeds can only be traced back to about the 1880's. Anything earlier than that is speculative at best. What I find interesting about the Weimaraner is how the good deductive reasoning found in Denlinger, Burgoin etc. has recently given way to pure bovine scatology...especially on the internet. Some of the claims are outrageous...everything from Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm issuing edicts about the breed to Nazi's using them as guard dogs to Weimaraners being the oldest hunting breed in the world!
The chapter on the history of the breed in W Ways was written by Debbie Andrews and Jackie Isabel. I have no idea how much information, if any, Ms. Alexander contributed to it. It is clear that the authors consulted all the classic works, Denlinger, Burgoin, Petri and others. They also chose many of the same quotes that had previously been published in the sporting press by Herber, Kleeman, Brandt et al. What is interesting is what they left out. No counter arguments that would refute the created-by-the-Duke theory are included. Catigorical statements such as Kleeman's "the hunting activity of the Dukes of Weimar had nothing to do with the existance of the Weimaraner" and Herber's agreement with him are curiously absent. Instead, the authors chose to conclude that there is sufficient evidence to declare that the Grand Duke played an important role in breeding and developing the Weim. I humbly disagree. |
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| munstyman |
Any chance of your book being published in time for Santa to drop one down my chimney this Christmas, Craig?
Could also do with some venison, the one with the red nose looks promising
Peter |
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| chiendog |
I'm making good progress....but I will need a few more months to do final edits and work with the designer for the overall layout. By the time I get it all together though, it may take TWO men in red suits to lug it around. I'm up to 250 thousand words (!!) |
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| chiendog |
For a more complete answer to the "when will it be done" questions, see my blog. I've posted some additional info there.
http://chiendog.blogspot.com/ |
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| munstyman |
Lets just hope as the `journey' comes to the end you don't suffer an official `body cavity search' for undeclared items 
Peter |
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| Greymaster |
Just curious how you come to be so certain in your view to this audience but on the same date in your blog you ask tentatively: Or should we considered this myth busted? |
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| chiendog |
The two sentences preceding the line you quote should serve to indicate that the final question is not tentative, but rhetorical. Does anyone have any information they can point me to that clearly establishes a link between the Weimaraner and the Grand Duke? (so far, no, they don't) Or should we considered this myth busted? (yes, we should) What I wrote on the blog is consistent with what I posted here "if someone were to provide evidence to support an opposing argument, I'm certainly willing to re-examine my position." Both here and on my blog, I am still waiting for convincing evidence. And I'm not holding my breath that it will ever show up. So, for the record, let me state that unless and until someone comes up with more than just vague hearsay about the Duke and the Weim, I will consider the connection to be nothing more than wishful thinking that has somehow morphed into a "truth" accepted by the Weim fancy. |
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| silverslave |
weimaraners were sent by te devil to get under your skin and turn you into they personal slaves | ||||||||