No retrieve in the field

santiago · No retrieve in the field

I am a stuck with the retrieving training with my 4.5 year old Brittany. I give you a rather long background (to try to provide you with all the useful information), some of my provisional conclusions and I end with some specific questions.

Background

Over the recent years he has shown good retrieving drive, but totally overwhelmed by his hunting/pointing drive. By this I mean that he would like to retrieve when nothing else was going on (i.e. garage, street) but would lose a lot of interest if real birds were around. When very young I made the mistake of being very harsh on him when he was trying to eat (in one piece) his second quail the same morning. Before that he would have more retrieving drive on the field although never the same as if birds were not around. Not sure this quail episode had a real impact (I think most likely it did).

I have spent the last couple of months working with my EB on the yard, working on his retrieve through clicker training (thanks again Josie for all the help). I am at a stage now where, as long as we are on my quiet street, he handles quite nicely on dummies, frozen and fresh birds with a good delivery. On fresh pheasants (not partridges), he might play around a bit, but he will also bring it back after being reminded verbally. He is eager on retrieving all sort of frozen birds and fresh partridges (much more than dummies as most dogs). At this stage, no treats are required just a "good dog" is enough after each retrieve.

When going to a park with no birds, he starts to have doubts. Sometimes he will retrieve. Sometimes he will refuse dummies completely while birds tend to be retrieved also in the park.

When shooting real birds in the field, he refuses to retrieve consistently. He hunts, points and finds downed birds well, when he finds the bird he mouths it playfully (not with hard mouth) until I arrive and take it from him (not difficult to take it away). Sometimes (but not always) If he finds downed birds that I have not seen he would sometimes bring them and leave them where I can see them and maybe also just stop there and play or just leave the bird there and move on.

Here are some of my conclusions:

1. I have stopped click and treating by now, as I think he now understands perfectly what retrieving is about. My logic is that he has to learn to obey the command when there is no treat around. In any case, he does not care about treats in the field, the "value" of birds is clearly higher. He cares about treats in the park though.

2. When training in the park, I think it makes sense to stop treats to replicate the situation he faces in the field. That is, in the field birds are way more valuable than playing retrieve. In the park, running around is more valuable than playing retrieve. If I include treats in the park, he retrieves very well because the now "playing retrieve for food" is more valuable than running around. As I said, treats are ignored in the field.

3. I am quite open to using the e-collar to reinforce and have started cautiously with this (i.e. by doing force-to-pile). He understands this well on my quiet street but not in the park or shooting. My interpretation is that he says I am happy to put up with a bit of pain, if we can just move on in a few minutes to running around or shooting, respectively. Would hate to mess this up though

Some questions (although all comments very welcome):

1. How can I use the e-collar or any other reinforcement method to make progress? No force fetching please before trying everything else. The dog understand the e-collar, it has never been used to teach, just to obey a known command

2. Will introducing e-collarpressure destroy all the goodwill from clicker training?

3. Following a refused retrieve, not moving on shooting/running around seems very sound logic. This is fine when in the park, I can go there every morning, ask him to retrieve (using a bit the e-collar to reinforce if it makes sense), if no response we go back home. When shooting it is not great for my shooting partners though. What do you think?

4. One way to make it easier would be to use frozen birds rather than dummies in the park. But my idea here is that I do not need to make it easy, I need to make him understand that when he is given the retrieve command, either he retrieves or nothing fun will follow. Any views?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Santiago

santiago

One other thought that came from a comment from another forum (PDJ, very interesting).

I think I am making a mistake with generalization. I vaguely remember that generalization is key with the clicker (read it here http://www.bodeus.com/click_retrieve.htm), which is not very logical to me (but might be to dogs). Once the dog understands "fetch" on the street, why would "fetch in the park" be different? Apparently it might be?

Having said that, not sure keeping associating that "you obey for food" is healthy in my case. As food will never work in a hunting situation. How can I find ways to convey the message "you always obey, food or no food, birds or no birds around"? Will generalizing the "obey for food" in the park help me move towards that goal?

josie

Hi -

You say , "I can go there every morning, ask him to retrieve (using a bit the e-collar to reinforce if it makes sense), if no response we go back home." - if he understands what the collar means, there's no way that he would be refusing to retrieve. Using a collar to enforce something which the dog doesn't understand is, not to put too strong a word on it, abuse. So if you do decide to continue down the e collar route, then please go to a forum like the US RTF forum and get help from the experts in FF and CC: http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24

As far as clicker training goes, it sounds like you are getting too far ahead of yourself, too soon. If you have a dog with a strong hunting drive and not much interest in retrieving, then you need to make the dog forget that hunting is fun and teach the dog that retrieving is fun. The best way to do that is to give the dog no chance to hunt and to have lots of fun with retrieving - by use of toys or food - whatever motivates your dog. You wouldn't take such a dog into the field AT ALL. When you're not retrieving, work on heelwork for rewards, sits and downs for rewards - anything that keeps the focus on YOU and not the environment.

The other point is that you say that, in the street, he retrieves nicely, so "At this stage, no treats are required just a "good dog" is enough after each retrieve. " Well, if you have cut the reinforcement down to zero, instead of using variable reinforcement, no wonder he is no longer interested in retrieving when there are more distractions around - you need to maintain a variable schedule to keep a behaviour strong. Use treats again in the street, in all situations, and make sure you can get at least 10 consecutive retrieves in the street, with rewards, before you then move onto a more distracting environment.

"I have stopped click and treating by now, as I think he now understands perfectly what retrieving is about." - Again, it's not always about *understanding*, but about maintaining a level of reward that keeps the dog motivated. Some dogs might not need treats/toys because they would find retrieving enough of a reward itself, being retrieve bonkers, other dogs might retrieve for a "good dog" and pat - but still other dogs might not find any of that rewarding and might want a treat or game. The dog decides what the reward is, not the handler. You might not need the clicker any more to mark the correct behaviour, if the dog understands - but that doesn't mean you don't need the treats.

If you have found that the place where you start to have wobbles is in the park (him being fine in the street), then you need to keep working at it in the park until it's 100% there now - and not increase distractions further or take him to the field yet. He shouldn't be given the chance to "refuse to retrieve in the field consistently" because he shouldn't be hunted yet or shot over if he is too distracted to retrieve. Again: If things are sometimes falling apart in the park, then you are building on shaky foundations if you move on from that yet.

"If I include treats in the park, he retrieves very well because the now "playing retrieve for food" is more valuable than running around" - Great, but you sound like you feel you are failing because you are using treats - you're not. Make sure you can do at least 10 retrieves consecutively before moving on from the park - with treats.

If he ignores treats in the field, then you need to bear in mind there is a big transition between retrieving in a city park, with no guns or real game around and retrieving in the country. You need more intermediate steps - what about retrieving in the country, with no guns around? Retrieving in different locations in the country? Retrieving with you out with your gun, but no shot fired? You firing a shot and then getting him to retrieve? Until you can get him out the car in any country location and have at least 10 simple seen retrieves to hand, don't increase the distractions.

Not sure if that helps, or if it's very practical if you live in London and don't have access to the countryside except when going shooting - if so, I think that is part of the problem - the country becomes so rare and so exciting as a result, that retrieving is the last thing on his mind.

HTH

josie

Re obeying for food: Why is that not possible in a hunting situation? I have a small pack of treats in my pocket and my dogs get a treat when they bring back a bird! It take 1 second to do, and they are definitely interested in the reward.

You will find that the treat is able to reward the dog, if you increase the distractions slowly enough. Helen at LADs has a great exercise involving a pen of quail. The dogs are so blown by the birds at first, outside the quail pen, that they are unable to pay any attention at all to their handlers or obey a simple command like "sit". If you move say 50 metres away and ask for a sit, they will be able to obey. Take a step closer, as for another sit. Reward. Keep moving closer, a step at a time and a sit at a time. When you reach the point where the dog sometimes can't pay attention, remain at that place and keep practising, and if necessary move further away again. It's about controlling the level of distractions. The same principal applies when moving from street to park to field. If you increase the distractions too much, too fast, the dog is unable to pay attention. You need to ensure each step is rock solid and then increase the smallest amount possible.

You are right about the generalisation: Which is why you should always lower the criteria back to the beginning when starting in a new location. Ie - go back to pick ups when you first go to the field.

santiago

There is a lot in your post! Thank you very much. I need to think about it calmly. Some things come to mind.

I believe he understands the e-collar. I have used it, I have tested whether he understands it. He understands it for everything else. But I am going to check the forum you suggested. In any case, when I say I use it "a bit" I mean that. Lowest level of stimulation that gets a reaction, if it does not work, it's over. Carrying on will be an abuse, I agree with you on that. It is just that I do not carry on.

Let's assume he understands the e-collar, as I think he does. In that case the answer must be that it is related to the generalization of the retrieve. But note that when we go to a new quiet place he is fine, no generalization needed. So there is where I am lost... maybe a new quiet place is not disturbing enough but a new place with distractions is?

After a good point, I often try to reward him by praising him and, in the past, by giving him a treat. He does not care, he does not seem to acknowledge me, he just wants to carry on. Your point on increasing the distractions slowly enough is very good, but I wonder whether there are just things he values more than food.

I do not say I am failing because of food rewards. I am failing, above all, because I do not have the experience. My point is that food might never be rewarding enough when the real birds come. But I might be wrong. Maybe Helen's exercise can prove that. Assuming I am not wrong on the value of food, maybe I do need something else so that he understands that he has to obey a known command. Maybe the e-collar is not that tool. Maybe retrieve is not a known command yet.

Everything you have told me has worked. I am willing to listen, try it and be wrong. I would feel comfortable having that backup tool. Maybe I need to be patient again, not comfortable.

It seems to me (so far) I need to work on two fronts. Make sure the command is understood (more generalization). Second, find ways to introduce pressure, force (whatever you want to call it) to reinforce.

For the first front, my action plan could be: go back to variable treats on the street, full CT in the park, gradual transition from city park to field. For the second front, no clue (maybe introduce some sort of pressure on the street???).

Does this make sense?

Thanks again Josie!!!

josie

Hi - Using the ecollar is a whole different ballgame to clicker training and really you should seek specialist help, if you're going to use it. There is a lengthy process which is gone through in the US to make absolutely sure that the dog understands what is asked of it - it's not a case of just sticking the e collar on and using it like you would a scruff when the dog does something wrong. One of the problems with the way the ecollar is stigmatised in the UK is that, rightly or wrongly, people ARE going to use it. (Even if it is banned, people will continue to use it - it is not possible to police what people are doing on their own with their dogs, in fields all over the UK.) But people are afraid to ask for help with it and reluctant to out themselves as using it. All that results in is people using it incorrectly and causing much more suffering to dogs.

"After a good point, I often try to reward him by praising him and, in the past, by giving him a treat." - Do you mean, after he has pointed? I wouldn't give him a treat then. Even I don't use any treats during hunting or pointing - all the rewards are in the environment then. Yes, there probably are things he values more than food - but you can also shape and influence what dogs find rewarding. It gets harder to do this as the dog grows older and as the dog teaches itself that the rewards are in the environment.

josie

No, you don't need any pressure. It's only going to complicate things - the dog is either working to get something (treats, rewards, retrieve, pat on head), or it's working to avoid something (pain etc). You can't combine these. All you run the risk of doing is associating retrieving with negativity and fear - as you mentioned happened originally with the quail. Unless you're willing to get heavily involved in learning about ecollar training from the US perspective, then I'd strongly suggest you don't use the collar for retrieving at least.

windem bang

If you train a dog to retrieve in the kitchen ,then that is what you have. A dog that will retrieve in the kitchen. If you train a dog to retrieve in the field beside your house then that is what you have - a dog that will retrieve in the field beside your house.

Basically you need to get out more when you are training. I vaguely remember having this conversation with someone else on this forum ! Laughing

You might consider a new line of approach to the problem. The following is a method given to me by Jeff of Chatston Gundogs .
......................................................................................................
If you can get your dog to do just one retrieve with a dummy straight back to your hand then do not give a treat - at once take the dummy from the dog and instantly throw it out behind and to one side of you with no steadiness ......encourage a run in When your dog brings that back then praise and give a treat too if you want .

Build up to fresh shot birds and do the same thing with them but quickly kill the runners first.
.........................................................................................................

I completely agree with Josie that your dog should not be allowed to hunt until it retrieves.
The dog sounds just like a typical Brittany - loves hunting so retrieving takes a back seat to it - if you allow it too.

Personally I would take your dog picking up only until non fuss retrieving was established. I would send it only for clearly seen birds that require no real hunting to find. I would not allow the dog to go looking for birds using the "Hi lost !" style of doing things - No "sweeping up" after drives.

I don't know if that is possible for you.

Jeff - if you read this - thanks for the advice. Very Happy

Bill T.

santiago

I see your point Josie. I am getting some proper advice before adding pressure/force/e-collar. Thx again.

Thanks Bill too. I think I can work on most of what you suggest. It makes sense. Question for you: what does Jeff's method achieve? Sorry I am a bit slow here...

windem bang

The method works because fun or interest has been added to the retrieve after the dogs return to the handler. The dog can cease to be anxious about its return to the handler because ,in a sense, the exercise has not been finished at the point where the dog arrives back at the handler.
The returned retrieve is always thrown behind the handler, never to the front. This encourages the dog to come closer in with less or with no messing about. The reward to the dog has become the run in out behind the handler. The throw need not be far - 10 feet or so is enough.

This means that once the dog comes to understand fun starts again when it arrives right back at the handler, it will be much happier to make a decent delivery. When working on real fresh shot game , the dog is no longer being expected to hand over its high value prize for a rather insignificant treat ...... it is being allowed to run in for a high value prize. The dog is much more willing to hand over its prize in the first place if it comes to expect that it will get that still warm prize back again under pretty exciting circumstances.

This is a method that can be used under "battle conditions ." I began using this method with my own dog Buck two picking up trips ago. He is coming on well using this method . I think it will take a few more shooting days yet but it is working.

I too tried to C.T. the retrieve at shoots and that was working too but it was often very difficult to click at the correct instant while watching birds fall and while keeping an eye on Charlie ,my cocker all at the same time. I think I clicked twice at the wrong instant in time and as I have now learned the hard way - what you click for is what you get !!! Shocked

Bill T.

guy

Santiago -
I am not quite sure when this problem started, did the dog retrieve well when it was a puppy and since the quail incident has got progressively worse. Or as age has caught up with him have your expectations changed. Is it a question of diminishing at worst or lacking improvement at best response or a paradigm shift on your part?

Whilst I have several Brittanys I can only give you an insight with one. (one is a pet and another came with retrieve wired in)

Topaz at one year old would not retrieve or only a very little. I did not have the insight (although I had read several books on FF) to do FF nor did I have the wish. At times I would love to have had a collar but I can see nearly every instance of need can be worked around.

My route to good retrieves - and he will now retrieve as well as some and better than many retrievers I know (these dogs with high placings in FT and working tests)...

I started by finding somewhere that he could not escape from and was a bit of fun for him - I had access to a large catslide roofed barn so used to throw dummies up that - a great game. We progressed to him starting and finishing on a piece of board on a couple of trestles. Even at times using a straw bale as this impromptu table. This made it fun for him and stopped any running around with the dummy. If we went for a walk he was given a dummy to carry before we even went out of the door. I was fortunate to be able to take my dogs to work so we could do a couple of these retrieves at a time - no more. Seens moved on to blinds.
At about two we joined a retriever class and things went exactly as you describe. He would run out to the dummy and stop for a wee or sniff the ground or on a good day acknowledge it in the slightest manner and then proceed to 'look' for it elsewhere. It was a case of out with the lead, return him to the dummy and either toss it a bit or kick it , heel him away and resend him from the start point.
He soon got the message, however the scent marking was still a problem. This we tackled by eyewipes. If he failed to bring the dummy he was called up, sat at heel and another dog sent. Immediately after that he had another go - Laughing

- much improvement.

Cold game initially suffered a lot of mouthing - it seems mouthing leads to mouthing as there are now loose feathers in the mouth to contend with. This time I acquired something like ten brace of partridge from my local shoot and put them in a pile and sent him to the pile, again and again. By about bird eight he had stopped any mouthing and the ninth bird ignored the pile so i stopped. He also developed a habit of turning the bird to pick it up by the shoulder blades.

I have noticed on cold game retrieving he will show more commitment to a retrieve if it is difficult. He shows much more enthusiasm for an over the fence downwind 40 yard retrieve than ever he will with a ten yard mark in rough grass. Maybe he knows when only he can get the bird ?

I have had no success using treats in the field; food is not of any interest to him. Even midday on a shoot he is not interested in anything to eat. (well maybe a warm sausage but that is about it) But training with a clicker to improve deliver worked dare i say it 'a treat'.

Every so often, on training days, he is sent as the bird is falling. As Bill suggests if it is a seen bird - direct to it and back no hunting for it. If it doesn't go to the bird call it back and cast it out. If if goes off call it back, pick the bird yourself and start again. This has two advantages - the dog has to learn to mark better and take a direction better.

Final thought - the better he is on his whistle (stop turn) the better he is on his retrieves.

santiago

Bill: thanks for the explanation. Seems identical to what the americans call a fun bumper. As I think you have mentioned before Bill, things just have different names but are basically very similar, which is reassuring.

Guy: thanks for adding more details to your experience after my e-mail only one day ago! I think if am patient I will get there. Hearing about other people's experiences is incredibly helpful. Hope we can train together soon.

Santiago

johnhod

Don't know if you are a member Santiago but the Brittany club will be holding a trainnig session and show in February. Info will be posted on the Brittany Forum http://thebrittanyforum.myfreeforum.org/

cressy

I am reading this with interest.

Mugi the geriatric brittany who came to field work late loves retrieving - game that is!! Cold or warm for him is equally rewarding and when getting him started (ok this was on cold game) he would be sent for the first bird which would be easy then we would do fairly similar to Jeffs method as I would lob the bird for him as soon as he came back and over a few retrieves the difficulty and for him fun increased. I do not need him to be steady totally but being old he is fairly steady anyway. If out hunting in the beating line he finds a dead bird (from a previous drive) he will quickly bring it back and then resume hunting.

Now the brat is somewhat more typical brittany - hunting is his first love, second love and third love but acting on Bills advice I have started increasing his interest by using warm game. I have been sending him on easy 'blinds' in that I have been placing the bird on shortish grass with minimal game scent then getting him from the car and starting him directly downwind of the bird. He is running out keenly for the retrieve but is not coming in well as he is reluctant to relinquish his prize - I have tried to be very low key over this as he is young and I have already poisoned his dummy retrieves by my attitude. Will set myself up to try Jeffs method to increase his desire to come in to me - poor battered birds Laughing

.

santiago

Good afternoon,

I thought I would give you an update on how we are doing.

As with other things in life, patience seems to be paying off!

Valick (my Brittany) is retrieving birds to "foot" rather than to hand! Big improvement. At a small, informal driven day in Wales, he retrieved woodcock, teal and snipe. Sometimes doing a good job vs the local spaniels, which is not bad for a city dog like him. Spending time at the peg and the other dogs around, seemed to sharpen his retrieving instincts.

I have also managed to interest him in food when out in the field, which is very helpful for training.

When training, he has also stopped fooling around with birds and now picks them up promptly and retrieves them to hand nicely, even in long memories.

I want to try to keep making progress from here. My first goal is very basic: a solid retrieve to hand after a bird is pointed and shot. Any advice on excercises to practice on?. We are doing better with dummies, but I have put all that on hold until we get the basics right, so really looking for the very basic ideas to help him get that retrieve to hand 100%.

I am also interested in hearing your views on the following: how would you simulate real shooting conditions for training? Other than going to shoots/walked up days that is (which I do a little bit more often that work allows). For instance, throwing the bird around is not great (they deteriorate fast), so I am a bit stuck with memory retrieves for now.

Thanks to everybody that contributed with advice (Josie, Guy and Bill in particular), a lot of what you said has been incredibly useful.

Best,
Santiago

josie

To simulate real shooting conditions, I use bird launchers and quail for hunting and pointing and steadiness. I'd use cold game for retrieves. It does deteriorate fast, but I got a whole lot of it when I had a retrieving game problem with Slate - in fact I got it from Guy, we stopped off at his place on our way somewhere and picked up a thousandish pheasant for training purposes.

DesO'Neile

windem bang

Hi Des , I have always been in the habit of keeping newly retrieved birds in my bag out of the way of the dog just as you do. I had a real problem with Buck my G.S.P. however. He was messing about with birds just a few yards away from me.

Jeff of Chatson Gundogs advised me to try the throw behind method with dummies and with birds. I cannot say for certain that only this method has been Bucks cure - I think the fact that I sent him for a lot more birds than is good for a young dog diminished his possessiveness of fresh shot birds - familiarity breeds contempt ? I did that on purpose too but Jeffs method certainly did no harm and it is my belief that it did a lot of good.
Bucks deliveries have greatly improved. He still does put some birds down but now it is because he has got a mouthful of loose feathers that he wants rid off. Jeffs method has, I think, taken away some of Bucks possessiveness because as soon as he delivers he gets the bird back again in an exciting manner - a fully sanctioned run - in.

I will continue to do this and I will keep it in mind for the future too - it seems to work well.

Bill T.

Emma_

After reading your posts, I think I have been very hard on my weim Shocked

Yes, when he was a puppy we did all retrieving by playing and he got a lot of treats and so on.
At some point he started to decide for himself if he wanted to pick up the birds or maybe do something else instead. This was when he was still a young dog. At this point I did not give him any pardon, I simply made him pick up every bird that I pointed out to him (in different situations). He never got away with not picking up the bird although I sometimes had to put the bird in his mouth. I also used another dog to pick up "his" birds which made him very anxious (competition usually works on these dogs). We had a hard period when he refused to pick up mostly anything but I worked on and now he is an excellent retriever to be fully trusted in all situations. I guess the coin just fell down finally.
I still give him treats in training situations but in the field he ignores them.

I was also thinking that usually when we shoot birds which we will eat, we clean the birds immediately after the shot. We usually feed the heart and lungs to the dog and this is a major reward for the dog. This usually increases the will to retrieve in the field and gives the dog a sense of understanding why they should co-operate with us.

windem bang

Emma_

windem bang

sinan

Hi,
First of all you must be sure that you have trained your dog properly. If you manage to train your dog successfully, he retrieves in every situation. Many people write or call to me for their dogs and tell me about their dogs how they trained them. When I reach the dog see that the dog has not been trained properly. Their dogs obey some cues but this is not meaning that the training has been completed.
Your dog is 4,5 years old. When did you have this dog and when did you start training him?
You mentioned that still using clicker. You should have got rid of clicker many years ago for your dog. Clicker is a marker to teach new behaviors and shaping uncompleted behaviors. After the dog knows the behavior you don’t need the clicker any more. I use clicker for a short time to teach new behavior and shaping. Dogs learn new behaviors very quickly but if you can’t reinforce these behaviors they don’t continue to do these behaviors. You should get rid of the food treats too or very minimize it. Reinforcement should move from food treats to another stages of the dog’s daily life. I mean you should use every situation, which your dog likes to do for reinforcement. Gundog’s prey is strongest reinforcement for them. Thus use their preys as reinforcement instead of food.

Clicker training is a missing term if you think only the clicker and food is reinforcement. You can teach some behaviors to your dog with clicker but you can’t train your dog with clicker. If you would like to train your dog you should know the law of the learning and use them. The training with positive reinforcement is more effective and humanly. Clicker is only a small part in the positive dog training.

You should know at least;
Operant and classical conditioning
Primary reinforcement
Secondary/conditioned reinforcement (clicker = marker)
NRM.No reward mark (opposite the clicker)
Luring
Time out
Shaping
Chaining and back chaining
Prompting and fading
Scheduling reinforcement
Premack principle
Extinction
to use positive dog training properly.

I don’t know how did you teach your dog to retrieve. But you should start training as if your dog knows nothing.
Retrieving is a behavior chain. If you want to teach a behavior chain to the dog it is better to begin from the last behavior (link) of the chain. Retrieve behavior chaining consist of the behaviors;
1- sit (steady when the game flush)
2- directed to the game
3- pick up the game
4- return to the hunter while holding the game
5- hold and wait with the game
6- deliver the game to the hunter’s hand while sit in front or heel position.
As you see all items are individual behaviors and need to teach these to the dog separately. You can use the clicker to teach each behavior of the links of this chain and you add cues for these behaviors. But when you join all these links together and make a chain you use only one cue. If you want good, reliable retrieving you should teach every behavior (link) separately and make a chain with these behaviors (links) and put in a one cue. After teaching the behaviors get rid of the clicker. You don’t need the clicker to reinforce the learned behavior.

All behaviors should be reinforced lifelong otherwise they don’t continue. This rule is valid for all creatures. But you don’t need to reinforce all behaviors with food and you can’t do this in real life. The dog retrieves if the hunt goes on. For instance, if you finish hunting at first retrieve of your dog and go back to your home probably your dog will give up retrieving soon. Contrary to this go on hunting after each retrieve and cease the hunt until the dog retrieve will reinforce the dog to retrieve.

You can work with several bird launchers. Place the launcher in the field and get the dog’s crate with you too. When the dog point to the bird in the launcher flush and shoot the bird. If your dog doesn’t retrieve leash him and immediately put in the crate and wait 1 or 2 minutes and after take him out from the crate and send for retrieve to the same bird if the dog not retrieve do the same again. (crate him 1 to 2 minutes). Immediately send the dog to another bird launcher to point when the dog retrieves the bird. And go on like this. Don’t keep the dog more than 1 or 2 minutes in the crate. If you keep the dog in crate for longer time your Time out become harsh punishment for your dog. Be careful to not exceed 2 minutes. Don't use cue when you put the dog in the crate just leash the dog and pull into the crate. You can tether the dog instead of the crate.
To do all these your dog should be trained very well to sit, down, go to direction you show, and all behaviors in the retrieve behavior chain etc.
This is very tiring job and need some equipment but works if you can manage it.

Stay away from e-collars. It is difficult to use negative reinforcement and e-collars have several side effects especially if you don’t have any experience about this kind of training.

santiago

Hi sinan,

Thanks for your detailed post. I got this dog when he was a few months old. He had his basic training in France when he was young, but not much retrieving training. He would definitely find the downed birds but not retrieve them with any reliability. This season I decided that it was worth working properly on his retrieve. I should have done it earlier but I did not! Too late to change that now...

I have made quite a bit of progress with him this season. We are now at the point where he is retrieving game and dummies consistently as long as (i) it is a field he has been to before and (ii) we are not actually hunting. He does the full chain as you describe it, no issues. I no longer use the clicker, I keep using food treats as rewards.

Here is an example. When I go shooting, before we start, I do a few retrieves with him and it is all fine. But once we have started, if he has pointed the bird (especially if it is a pheasant, partridge-woodcock are easier), he finds it and either brings it until he is a few feet away or just waits by the bird.

Bill T has written here how he suspects that one of his dogs might drop the bird a few feet early because he does not like the loose feathers. Maybe there is something of that with pheasants.

Mostly though, I think the hunting instinct gets over him and I just need to manage that. My tactic now is to reward him with treats if he brings the bird to me, even if he is a few feet short (i.e. he does not sit waiting for the release command, he just drops the bird a few feet short). Once I achieve that, I can insist on the final steps of the chain which he has learnt. I have tried to wait also before continuing hunting, but the issue with that is that he fools with the bird (he does not do this in other situations) so I have to give up and carry on.

Your suggestion on the crate is a good idea and I will try it, although maybe not easy to put in practice in hunting situations. That is my problem, because when training I have a very good retrieve by now. So probably what I need is a training situation that replicates the hunting conditions, so maybe bird launchers are good for that.

What makes me optimistic is that I am seeing progress by being patient and working on generalization as much as possible.

Thanks again for your advice!

Santiago

josie

Santiago, I wouldn't reward him if he is dropping the bird a few feet short, especially if you are just using food and not the clicker. Because if he drops the bird and then you give him a treat, you are effectively rewarding him for dropping it on the floor, a few feet from you - he thinks this is what you want and it may well get worse.

What happens if you try more traditional gundog solutions like turning your back on him and running a few steps as he comes up to you, so he chases you, then you can turn around, take it to hand and give him a treat for that (to hand) instead?

The clicker solution would be to go back to the hand touch, by the dog's nose, which is where the delivery to hand is developed from.

santiago

I have tried everything and nothing works. If I run a few feet from him, he just stays with the bird or leaves the bird and comes to me.

I understand that I am rewarding him for dropping the bird a few feet short, but that is better than waiting by the bird and that was my logic.

I have been very strict with the CT, so when I say that he is reliable training he is 20/20. He goes when told, comes back, sits and waits for the release command. He is very keen on dummies too.

So I do not know really how to move from here, because I only have the problem when hunting and nothing works then! My idea, as I say, is generalization.

I go clay shooting on saturdays after the season ends and he gets quite excited there, so planning to train there a lot. Also maybe meet up with someone and work with bird launchers (which I do not have).

Any other suggestions welcome!

Santiago

josie

One other quick thing which occurred to me is - are you expecting him to sit and hold the bird, for you to take? Perhaps you could think about cutting out the sit and just having a running delivery to hand? You would need to practise this on dummies first before game. IMO it is much easier for the dog to learn to deliver to hand if you cut out the sit....?

santiago

i have no particular need for the sit. actually even the delivery to "foot" is probably fine for me.

now that i have the proper chain though, it seems to me that something just needs to click in his head in the field. so i am happy to be patient and wait for that.

maybe i am being an optimist, but as long as we make progress (even if very slow) i am happy to wait.

sinan

Does your dog know heeling? If not, teach him heeling. Make heeling as the dog come around your back and sit to your left side. Don’t make him sit in front of you and don’t take the game from him while he is in front of you. If you do like this dog could drop the game before reach to you. The dog drops the game before the taught behavior completed. If you teach the fetch behavior to complete when the dog goes around your back and sits your left side the dog will drop the game more closely to you. Maybe he drops the game just in front of you. To make the dog to hold the game while turn around your back and sit your left side need some practices with your dog.
1- Teach your dog heeling as turn around your back and sit your left side without any game or dummy. Practice this until the dog heeling like this in every situation.
2- Forget about the food treats after the dog learned this heeling. And use your dog’s prey drive to reinforce him. All things like balls which run away from the dog imitated the game for them. If the dog has strong prey drive can’t resist to ball going away from him. Tennis ball is ideal for this. Play with tennis ball near your dog but don’t give it to your dog all the time. Make the ball visible to him and after disappear it. Let the dog play with this ball very short time every day. Make the ball obsession for the dog. When you see the dog is very eager to have this ball you can begin to practice retrieving.
3- before begins to retrieve training teach your dog to carry things while walking beside you.
Start the things with the dog likes too much. These could be bones, toys etc. If your dog has a special toy that loves it too much hide this toy for a couple days and after take it to outside with your dog. Leash your dog and give his toy and walk. If he doesn’t drop keep walking like this. And practice like this every day.
4- you can begin retrieve training when your dog comfortably carries the thing while walking with you. Take your training bag with your feathered dummies and the tennis ball in it without clicker and food treats. You can’t train the gundog which is clicker and food addicted.
Don’t practice in the park where do you go always. Take the tennis ball out and play yourself and don’t give it to your dog. The dogs stimulate by the ball but not reach it. Now you will use premack principle. A high-probability behavior, something the dog loves to do, can be used to reward for a low-probability behavior. This is the Premack principle. Your dog will have the change to chase the ball if successfully retrieve. (He will pick up the feathered dummy and go around your back and sit your left side and wait to deliver the dummy.)
Now throw the dummy in very short distance as half meter away from you. And make the dog pick up the dummy and go around your back and sit your left side. If you begin practice very short distance the dog will not drop the dummy. You will increase the distance gradually. But you do it very systematically and gradually. I mean according to dog’s situation add half meter and half meter to the distance day by day. Make the ball visible to the dog when he successfully does the retrieving and throw the ball to chase it. After take the ball back from him immediately. The dog will wait for second throw but you will make him retrieving job for second throw. In future you will not throw the ball for every retrieve. You should make it like lottery for the dog. Some times ball will come and sometimes not.
5- If the dog will not retrieve upon your command you will use time out (TO). Take the crate with you and put the dog into the crate for 30 seconds. And take him out again and immediately cue again. Do this for every disobeying. You can use a pole to tether the dog instead of the crate. When you use TO don’t talk to your dog just leash him and pull into the caret or tether to the pole. Ideal time for TO is 30 seconds. It increases to 1 or 2 minutes according to the situation. But it should not be exceeded 2 minutes.
6-Before the retrieving is established very well you don’t look at your dog while he is retrieving. When he is close to you look at other direction. If you stare to your dog and your dog is clcikerholic or foodholic will drop the game and wait for food.

It is up to your experience to put in practice all these. But sure you can succeed if you will be patient, calm and gentle toward the dog.

santiago

sinan, very interesting post, thanks very much again.

here is the explanation of what i think happened:

sinan

Hi Santiago,

If crate is difficult for you use tether the dog but don’t exceed the time limit.
you don’t make eye contact and go away from him when you tether him.
Try the frisbee instead of tennis ball. Throw the Frisbee close to the ground. Frisbee could imitate flying bird.
Gundog training sometimes is difficult if you don’t have some equipment. Bird launchers and birds and helpers usually needed. If you have any possibility to hire the equipment and birds of professional gundog trainer will make everything easy for you.

santiago

frisbee sounds like a great idea. going to try that! many thanks again