lagopuslagopus
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Over the Moon (river)We were picking up today, on the little shoot where I first started to do any picking up with my first Munster (Willow) eight seasons ago. A little late arriving for the third drive as we had been finding a bird pricked that went back in the woods on the second drive I saw a bird (pricked) going over the river. There is a horrible fence all along the river until we get about four fields along so I marked it and left it. A couple of fields further another hard hit bird went over the river so when we got to the end of the fence I thought I would take Inca and Ekko (my baby) who was with me along the river bank and have a look at what the river was doing today. The area I had marked the birds down was not moving too fast so I thought we'd have a go. There is a fence that runs up the opposite bank at 90 degrees to the river and the wood slopes up quite steeply on the other side. One bird had landed on each side of this fence. I had Inca sat on my left (as usual) and Ekko (7 months on Xmas day) was on my right. I put my arm out (as I do) and said mark. I got as far as the 'back' and Ekko was down the bank and starting to swim across the river! After the 'and fetch' bit Inca joined her. They emerged on the other side and were told 'back' again, and then given the hie-lost whistle. Inca started to hunt lower down the bank (experience I guess) and Ekko went a little further up. Quite quickly Inca located the first bird which was dead and was on her way back across the river (approx 30 yards). I was hoping Ekko wouldn't notice and would stay over there but just as I was about to send Inca over again she started to come back. As they met in the middle Ekko turned round and went back over which was good. This time they had to go to the right of the fence and the only gap is right on the edge of the river. Inca was directed to the right and Ekko followed. Again Inca started to hunt lower down and Ekko went a bit higher. After no time at all Ekko was on her way back with a hen in her mouth (fantastic). Over the river she came and as she got nearer I could see that the hen was still alive and trying to keep her head out of the river! As you can imagine I was over the moon and told her so as she swam back to my side of the river. I got on my radio to tell Geoff (OH) what was happening and he informed me that he and all the guns could hear every word that I said as it was echoing around the valley - how embarassing!!! As she was carried a bit down the river on the way back she had to make her way along bank back to me and presented me with a very lively hen pheasant. She seems to have worked out (she had a live cock at Carrog last week) that if she holds the live birds by the tops of both wings they can't do much about it! Not bad for a baby.
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guy
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THAT must be the retrieve of the season!! Bravo.
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Mike
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Wow! Well done!!
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lagopuslagopus
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It was for me Guy. I was so pleased that they had both found a bird and Ekko has learnt so much from that. The next time she goes over there she'll remember finding that bird this time - so good for the confidence.
Have a good trip for Catja.
Karen
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lagopuslagopus
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Thanks Mike
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WiskeyJaR
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nice looking dogs, sounds like they had fun 
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guy
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| lagopuslagopus wrote: |
Have a good trip for Catja.
Karen |
Really looking forward to it - have even bought some tee shirts with her picture on to leave with the breeder - to replace the socks and other pieces of clothing she has apparently eaten 
I believe there is a day of Brittany only hunting arranged - about ten of them - should be special. Brittany hunting in Munsterland (that is the area we are gong to)
She already has invitations to go on two shoots - so January should be very busy!
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Bareve
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How fantastic Karen and for such a baby
That's quite some stretch of water for an adult let alone a puppy. Clever Inca for teaching her some bits and giving Ekko the confidence to "have a go".
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BritAnnie
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What a retrieve, well done!
What whistle do you use for the hi lost command. Most people I know just shout the words.
BA
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windem bang
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No wonder you're pleased Karen,I'd be jumping for joy myself 
Bill T.
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lagopuslagopus
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| Quote: | Quote:
hie-lost whistle
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This was something I picked up from the retriever people Annie and started to introduce to Inca about a year ago. I've used it with Ekko, as well as voice, since she was tiny. How would you describe it? I blew it for Geoff and asked him. He reckons the best way is to say it sounds a bit like cuckoo! It is a quick higher note followed by a longer low note, repeated a few times! Obviously, as with any command, you can do whatever you like as long as you are consistent and you teach the dog what it means.
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Bareve
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Are these "retriever" people the same sort of people that say we HPR folk over use our whistles
I would say the key for a successful retrieve is as Karen say - keep using the same command for the same thing. We went to a retriever training day and he said are you sure your dog knows the "hi lost" command and I said "of course". So he set me up with a covered dummy (with grass) about 30 ft away and then a further 30 ft from there he threw my dog a seen dummy. Told me to send my dog and just before he got to the covered dummy tell him the retrieve command and if he knows what it means he will start looking where he is......... well you can guess what happened and back to the drawing board we went <LOL>
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guy
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My Hi lost whistle is 'look in there' blown into the whistle.
-todays training is going to try the 'Sharon Test' Although I may put in a 'stop' first.
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lagopuslagopus
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So have we all been out and tried the 'Sharon test?
I've just been out in our field and had a go with Inca. The first time the blind dummy was actually pretty much in line with where she was running for the seen (as it turned out) so when I blew the hie-lost she found it qite easily. The next time I made sure it was out to the right which was the wrong way for the wind. I blew the hie-lost whistle as she neared the area and she obviously wondered what that stupid woman was doing now and stopped and looked at me. I gave it again with the hand signal too and she started to hunt around the area until she found it.
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Helen
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Wow, sounds like a fantastic retrieve! Well done all of you!
Helen
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windem bang
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Buck is so damned awful on marked retrieves that he'd probably find the hidden retrieve completely by accident! Back when I trialled labs I used to use a "hie-lost" whistle. With H.P.R.'s I was teaching 4 whistle commands as it was, go hunt - stop - turn - recall. I felt that though the dogs were capable of understanding more than that I might get mixed up or blow incorrectly. I could have got around this by having two whistles but in an emergency I like to have only one whistle - I don't want to have to fiddle about selecting the correct one.
I'm quite good at "tongueing" a whistle to make different notes but just in case I confuse the dog I've reverted to calling "Hie lost!" when that is neccessary.
Bill T.
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Ghilliegumdrop
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How about .....get on and find the b....y thing???? 
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guy
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| Ghilliegumdrop wrote: | | How about .....get on and find the b....y thing???? |
not sure that sounds very 'lady like' when used in company
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sashalgwps
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Well Done Karen that is very impressive!
Alex
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munstyman
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Stunning Karen, well done Ekko, All this and managing to take photos TOTAL RESPECT 
Merry Christmas
Peter
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lagopuslagopus
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The camera is always in my pocket - I just have to remember to take it out and use it!
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Mike
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| lagopuslagopus wrote: | | The camera is always in my pocket - I just have to remember to take it out and use it! |
That is my biggest failing, carry a fab little waterproof camera everywhere and always forget to take the damn thing out 
Will have a go at the Sharon test tomorrow, I have a fair idea what to expect 
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windem bang
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I'll bet you do! I used to do that test with my labs, not always an easy thing to train and the better the dog is at marking and the keener it is to retrieve, the more difficult it becomes.
Bill T.
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Helen S
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That can be my next project during the summer, it will instill some more retrieve discipline in my hunt mad girl.
Question - do I need to improve the marking before I try this? She doesn't always mark well in long grass with no landmarks. I can handle Liesel onto a retrieve but she can get "turned off" by my handling her and seems to lose her drive and initiative a bit and becomes rather too reliant on my directions. So if I tend not to "fiddle" too much if I can help it.
Helen S
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Mike
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Right, I haven't got out of the house yet and I am just pondering what to do after we fail the "Sharon test". Anyone got any ideas on how to simplify the test as a stepping stone to the hole thing? Don't mind him failing once as a "test" (who knows he may suprise me  ) but don't want to keep failing the same test over and over.
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lagopuslagopus
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Throw the seen slightly further away from where the blind is and be ready with the stop whistle when he gets to roughly the area of the blind. Leave him sitting for a while and then give him your hunt for command (whatever it is) and be ready to stop him again if he tries to go for the seen. If you have someone with you throwing the seen, tell them to pick it before he gets a chance to get to it. You could also put more than one blind down in the area so he finds one easily to start with.
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BritAnnie
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I was really wondering about the use of a whistle for the hi lost command - I've been with mostly retriever people for training and they just yell 'hilost' at their dogs till they find the thing. I've never heard any of them using the whistle.
I only use three whistle commands - a long blast - beeeeeeep for "stop where you are right now and don't move"; beep beep beep beep beep for "come back here NOW!!!"; and beep beep for "whatever direction you are going in turn and go another way.
What I have found is that if they are on point and I give the turn command (beep beep) they flush. Problem is then getting the Beeeeeep one in fast enough afterwards and them responding
Is this all wrong?
BA
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windem bang
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Annie, why would you want to give the turn command to a pointing dog ?
A word of warning about this "test." I.M.O. this test should not be done with any dog that is less than very keen on retrieving. It should also not be done with the type of dog that is inclined to "dry up" when given more than a minimal amount of handling to do. The more you whistle the more a dog is likely to "dry up."
The idea behind this training is for the dog to check its outrun towards a mark. Be very careful about attempting to train this or your dog could become a spinner. The dog will go out from you towards a marked or even a blind retrieve then spin around to look at you. Some dogs do 180 degrees then just stand or sit and look at you and some just eye you as they do the full 360 degrees. Whichever they do the dog no longer has a good mental picture of the mark. The dog is spinning in expectation of your whistle, whether that whistle means "hi- lost now!" or "sit!"
Be wary of this test a perfectly good dog could be spoiled by it.
I don't do it with Buck because I'm trying to improve his marking, it's already bog - awful, this test would make it even worse!
You have been warned
Bill T.
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lagopuslagopus
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To me it just seems a different kind of seen with a blind like you get at a working test but with the blind in the same direction as the seen.
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lagopuslagopus
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Annie, I would have thought the reason for a hie-lost whistle was the same as for any other. It probably carries better than the voice and is less likely to disturb game.
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Bareve
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I agree Bill - it was done to me to prove that my dog didn't know the command to start looking for a retrieve. I'm not sure I would want to make it part of a training programme as I can just see the dogs doing as Bill says - stopping and looking for the next command.
However the principle of stopping a dog on a retrieve he thinks he must go out to isn't that different from what we sometimes get at working tests - a seen is put out and then you turn the dog towards a blind? Also it happened on the trial on Sat where a dog was sent for a specific retrieve (2 birds down) and the dog went to the wrong one - if your dog understood being stopped and being directed onto a different one the outcome on Sat may have been different.
I think what I would do personally is do something similar (stopping and directing) but then finish on a long memory or seen - something that encourages a dog to shoot out confidently as he "knows" where it is.
I think the biggest "fault" I have is that I trust my dogs so much when training that as soon as they get into the area I can see them switch themselves into "it's here somewhere" mode that I forget to re-enforce it with their "looking" command and lose the opportunity for the dog to connect the two. Hence my dogs aren't that good at recognising the "looking" command as they perhaps should be.
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lagopuslagopus
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From being tiny babies I always use 'hie-lost' when they put their head down to pick the dummy on a seen/memory retrieve - hoping that they will put the action of head down finding a dummy together with the words/whistle, and this carries on through most training regardless of age.
We're very good at diversifying - we should probably have started another topic with the 'Sharon test'.
Merry Christmas everyone
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BritAnnie
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Yes, I am sure that is right - I have just never heard any of the retriever people I know using one - they always just yell at the dog. That's why I've been using the turn whistle (it's perhaps not exactly the same - a little extra beep)
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guy
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I was taught the 'hunt there' whistle by a retriever man.
We played the 'Sharon Test' yesterday - needed the stop first. Then tried a variation - leave a blind and walk on. Stop and throw a seen halfway to the blind. Have the dog pick the the blind first. Have fun.
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Bareve
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It's a good job these dogs don't realise I'm to blame for these extra little tests they are having to do
I've heard a lot of lab people whistle the "hi lost" command - it certainly sounds slicker than a verbal command but I'm a bit too old to change my ways and then I would get my poor dogs confused !!
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Ghilliegumdrop
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Don't know about the dogs Sharon.....I'm confused  Must be the wacky backy
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lagopuslagopus
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Sharon - you're not THAT old! Were there any results on Saturday?
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windem bang
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Of course she's not THAT old - she's younger than me
Bill T.
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