| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Claire |
Picking up with Whistle = a few questions.....Most of you will remember that I have had problems with Whistle's retrieving because I did too much when she was young. However, months of frustration and perseverance have paid off as she has been back to retrieving for a wee while now and I am seeing good progress.We have recently had just a couple of shoot days and Whistle has been a picking up dog. As the season has gone on, I have seen some changes in Whistle which is telling me that she is very much learning what this shooting lark is all about and whilst she obviously still has a lot to learn, I am seeing her make progress. The first shoot day she picked a total of 9 birds which considering the bag was only 28 that was pretty good going. However, she fannied about quite a bit with some of the retrieves, in that she mouthed the bird a bit when returning and was dropping it a few feet away from me. I also noticed that if the bird fell reasonably close to her she would run out (when sent) with enthusiasm to pick the bird up but then wouldn't bother picking it. I also noticed on a couple of occasions that when she went out to pick a bird, if another dog got there first and mouthed the bird and then dropped it, she wouldn't pick it up (I know this can be common). On the second shoot day she picked about a dozen birds, again not bad considering the bag was just 42. She had certainly made progress from her last picking up day. She was marking the birds really well, when sending her for blinds she was hunting really well and taking my direction well when I felt she needed it (I try to leave her to find the bird herself). A few birds that fell were quite some distance away and she bolted out after them (again only after I sent her) and came back with enthusiasm but is still dropping them a few feet away, even if I do, try to encourage her to come in or turn my back on her or ignore her or walk away. Last Saturday we both earned ourselves major respect with one of the guns by finding a bird that had been pricked and had gone down a fair distance away (put it this way, it took us almost 10 mins to walk to the area where the gun thought it had fell). The gun wasn't sure we would find it, but we did and he was overjoyed. However, last Saturday she picked a couple of runners. The birds seemed to be very alive in that they were just sitting there, blinking away, but they weren't flapping. What happened was she brought the bird back, and when she went to drop it a few feet away it started to run and so she grabbed hold of it again. However, she wasn't keen on giving it up and I didn't know what to do for the best. She has done this a couple of times when she has picked what she deems high value (she did this with her first hare), and so rather than taking it off her quickly I have let her keep hold of it for a wee while and then praised her when she has given it up. My thinking is that the last thing I want to do is create more retrieving problems by taking game off her too quick. However with the runners she has kept hold of them, basically until they have died. I could see her gripping harder onto the birds and on further inspection there have been a couple of punctures. Probably not enough to kill the bird, it was dying anyway and I'm not massively concerned about the punctures because I know she has a soft mouth because I inspect every bird she brings back and any I'm not sure about I give to someone more experienced to check. My question is, what is the best way to treat this situation? Quickly try to take the bird off her and despatch it myself and run the risk of her not wanting to give up any bird, or leave her with it and run the risk of her gripping it harder  
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| sako75 |
Claire ,
Everything that you have written , I have been through this season. I had a problem with Millie dropping warm pheasants at my feet to start with but I solved this by clicker training (of a sort  ) using cold game and treats. I think it all comes down to experience , I notice a hell of a difference with Millie now and her retrieving after some 80+ warm game retrieves so far this season.
Re the runners - Millie was exactly the same , the bird would run Millie would wrestle with it and the bird would sometimes be dead by the time she came back. Millie tended to bite down on them to start with but she is fine now , runners tend to get back to me in one piece  - again IMO the dog was stressing a little due to the pheasant flapping and scratching at her. I know that she is not hard mouthed from experience.
I cannot comment on whistle not giving up the bird as I have not yet had this problem but I suspect more experienced members will help you out. Out of interest , does she know the "leave" command - have you taught this ?? Glad to hear that in general Whistle is doing very well this season in amongst the real thing. Keep it up Claire sounds like she is coming on leaps and bounds !!! Barry. |
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| lagopuslagopus |
It's not whether there are any puncture marks or not that means the dog has damaged the bird, it is whether the ribs are damaged. This damage can only be felt, not seen. | ||
| windem bang |
Claire, Buck has the possession thing too. I think you may have to train her to HOLD ! This may seem an odd thing to say given that your problem is with possessiveness. If you train the hold with the dog sitting quietly in front of you then you can also train a definite release command.
As long as you are not frightened that you will get your face bitten off, for some dogs really don't like this, you can do a form of force release with no harm at all to the dog or to the bird. Get the dog close into you, sit it, then give the release command firmly and blow sharp and hard right into the dogs nose. Many dogs detest this and will, for some reason, open their mouths in protest. You should already be controlling the dogs head and have a hand on the game ready to remove it. There are other ways of course but this has worked for me in the past, I haven't used it on Buck yet - I can't catch the bugger! Bill T. |
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| Claire |
I'm a bit confused about the bird damage thingy. What is classed as the ribcage? I thought they just had a breast bone but not actual ribs like other animals do. Also, if a dog sinks a canine tooth into the flesh of the bird is that not classed as damage?
Barry, Whistle does know what the leave it command means. If she looks like she doesn't want to give the bird up, if I walked up to her and told her to leave it then she would. But what I'm trying to encourage is for her to willingly come towards me to give it up as opposed to me walking towards her. Also, as she is showing little signs of wanting to keep her prize, I do not want to rush in and force her to give it to me by saying leave it. Hence my confusion on what to do for the best when this happens, but particularly when this happens with a pricked bird. Barry I think you are right with regards to the experience thing. Gary reminded me that Harris used to sink down hard on runners until he got much more confident and now he will just gently hold onto them and happily bring them to you. Bill, Tommy did tell me to start training the HOLD command and I did start but didn't seem to be getting anywhere because she just wasn't interested. She likes plastic bottles and I thought these would be ideal but quite frankly she couldn't have cared less 
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| weima |
I wouldn't have her on runners until she is OK with warm dead birds. With an inexperienced dog I always say at the start of the day that I don't want them to pick runners so that the guns/other pickers up know to send their dogs.
If the ribs have been damaged the bird is deemed as damaged. Even if there are puncture wounds & the ribs are intact, the bird is deemed as OK. When she is going out for a bird & she goes to pick it, give her loads of encouragement & once she is on her way back either turn your back so that she has to come to the front of you or walk away so she has to follow. All the time whistling her back in & verbal praise. I personally wouldn't rush to take the bird from her because in the end she may not bring it back at all, instead I would praise her with it close to you & gradually take it from her. |
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| johnhod |
If Whistle is trained to come to heel you might be able to try using the heel command to bring her in close enough to relieve her of the bird. As long as she's coming close you can then choose to take the bird immediately or leave it with her for a while | ||
| Claire |
Ideally I don't really want her to pick runners, but the problem on Saturday was that these birds were just pricked and hadn't actually ran off anywhere, so until she brought them back I didn't realise they were still alive  And can I just say, I hate that look of the bird when it is VERY much alive and the dog has it in its mouth and the bird is just blinking away and doing nothing. Gives me the flippin creeps, I'd rather it was flapping
I do what you say Claire, ie turn my back, give lots of encourage etc. etc. but I'm still finding that what she does is still drop the bird a few feet away from me. I can see this because I turn my head back to take a peek. I'm glad you agree I shouldn't rush in to take the bird from her because that is what my instinct was telling me to do, but I was worried that by doing so she was effectively killing the bird and I didn't know what problem was the better of 2 evils 
I guess the fact that she is eagerly going out on her retrieves is a good thing and I just have to give lots of encourage to bring her in and maybe in time she will get better at it and then I can work on all the little things like delivery etc. I suppose it is all still a novelty for her and once she gets more confidence and experience maybe she will stop fannying about with the birds 
Bit confused as to why she loses interest in what I would call the easy retrieves, ie the marked retrieves when the bird is only about 40 yards away. Perhaps these retrieves are just not exciting enough for her
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| countrygirl |
I am having all the same problems as you with Rumour, last week I had her sitting quitley next to me during the drive quite early there was a bird shoot and landed dead near us, I sent her for it at end of drive and she ran stright past and went off flushing the lie birds
I know it will all come in time but only 2 chances left this season if she dosent come in season lol. As to bird damage you could do with some experianced to show you the difference between a bird intact and with its ribs the way I was taught is the you feel over the back between the wings so if you are looking at the brest bone you are the wrong rnf lol, but I could be wrong Caz |
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| josie |
Does she always deliver to hand with dummies, Claire, 100% of the time? Is this just with birds? | ||
| windem bang |
Been wondering the same thing as Josie, does she retrieve dummies well 100% of the time ?
I don't know Whistle but Tom does, both he and I seem to be in agreement as to what to do. A sort of modified F.F. --- If this kind of behaviour ONLY happens on game it won't be too easy to cure. That is just about the stage I'm at just now, damn near perfect on dummies but still inclined to mess about with game. Not an easy one to answer Claire but if the dummy retrieve isn't very good the game retrieves are likely to be worse. Bill T. |
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| Helen S |
Claire, just to say you are not alone and I am reading this thread with interest.
Liesel retrieves dummies very well and pushes them into me, she retrieves cold game well but the present is not so willing and warm game still required a bit of encouragement when we last had the opportunity, she would put it down rather than give it directly to me. As you said, it seems to be what she deems the high value items that cause the problems. Liesel also crunched the one runner she has picked up but I put this down to inexperience and hope to give her plenty of practice this coming season with warm game. Helen S |
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| windem bang |
An interesting topic, there seems to be a few of us in the same boat - dummy retrieves good, game retrieves not so good.
If I possibly can I'm going to come out the other end of this, (next season now) without allowing hard mouth to gain a toehold. I've got my fingers - and my toes crossed. Bill T. |
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| bollibop |
me also.
i dont post much but do read with interest.
i have found this particular topic brilliant as i am also having the same problem - my girlie gsp 2 and half - her first season out. doesnt like the easy ones - much prefers - thick cover so she can graze all her belly 
are all the dogs youngsters. looking forward to reading more on this. its brilliant as most of the books and articles you read tell you what to do but dont actually offer advice if it goes wrong 
ruth |
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| windem bang |
Hi Ruth, nice to hear from you. I always had the same problems with books that you are having. The authors had so much to cover that they always seemed to miss out the bit I was having trouble with!
Good luck with your dog - we should form our own club - Rotten Retrievers Anonymous! You are not alone! Bill T. |
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| Claire |
Well I'm glad I posted now as it seems there are a few of us in the same boat!
My bitch just turned 2 at the end of September. With dummies, no she doesn't always retrieve to hand. Sometimes she will, but more often than not she will drop them fairly close to me. Infact, having thought about it, she will drop the dummy closer to me than she will game. But tbh I've stopped retrieve training using dummies because I felt she was bored with the dummies and I really needed to get her onto cold game as opposed to attaching wings to dummies, which I had been doing for a few weeks. Whistle isn't a particularly keen retriever, even though I've never told her off for retrieving anything and that includes articles when she was a puppy that I might have preferred her not to retrieve. She just doesn't get motivated as much as I would like. However, I do believe you can train the retrieve and so I am not panicking and certainly over the last few months she has improved tremendously. I aint giving up yet No wait, change that to I aint giving up FULL STOP
This is her first full season picking up as last season she was very young and only came along to our shoot a couple of times, more for the experience than anything else, and she did pick a couple of birds and that was it. TBH if I just wanted to use her on our shoot as a picking up dog then she is perfect because she is well behaved, doesn't make a nusiance of herself, isn't noisey, is friendly with everyone including dogs and she does pick up the birds and will hunt for the birds she hasn't marked. But I really would like to trial her and I've come this far so I think I'd be stupid not to continue trying to aim for trial level. I'm not talking about aiming to win trials or even get a placing, but if I can enter a trial and not disgrace myself then I know I will have learnt a lot and with my next dog I will aim higher. Just like I've done in showing really. Does that make sense? Or am I babbling
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| windem bang |
Yes Claire you are babbling! Think I know someone else who does that! You might like to try doing what Barry did and what I've done with Buck to improve the present part of the retrieve. I've been getting the p**s taken out of me for it today but it does work. I'm the guy that didn't like treats and retrieves but it did work. I know dummies aren't game but you've got to start somewhere.
Bill T. |
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| josie |
[whispers] clicker retrieve [goes to bed] | ||
| Helen S |
Go Jo
Helen S |
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| Bareve |
Well I was told a method which worked for my dog who was very indifferent about dummies and cold game and wouldn't pick up warm game.
He has always been a very keen and intense hunter and this was always what he wanted to do and without knowing his "work" was always hunting with a few retrieves in the middle of it and him knowing he would be hunting back towards home. So I was told to let him have 5 mins in a field to empty out and then in same field set up a cold game retrieve. If he did it then we continued to go hunting, if he didn't he didn't go and was put back on the lead and taken home. Well let's say on the second day he picked up the bird and brought to me and it's been like that ever since. I continued to do that exercise for about a week and in the meantime at home I did teach him hold with a dummy. Yes he didn't like it but soon realised that holding this yucky thing got great praise from Mum. I also did one season picking up with him (about 7 days in total) and that helped quite a lot but he would mess about on the closer ones preferring to do the long distance ones. He is now completely reliable with dummies, cold game and virtually reliable with warm game - all to hand - no more spitting dummies. So Claire it can be done but it was a fairly long job but it may mean going back a step or two to make sure the basics really are there. |
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| Claire |
Good, so it looks like I've got plenty of things to try and with the season coming to an end I have got plenty of time to try to sort this problem out. I really do feel that having had a full season of picking up that she has come on in leaps and bounds. We have only missed 1 shoot day this season and that was so I could watch a trial, something that I really needed to do.
I will look into this clicker retreive training. Obviously I've still got my clicker because I've clicker trained for years. When Whistle was a very young puppy I did some basic clicker training with her and then stopped, but, I used food and so I am sure she will remember that the click = food. So the problem I foresee, but it won't stop me at least trying this out, is that I struggle to use food in my training because she is actually too food orientated and she is too eager to get the treat and therefore struggles to concentrate on what I am actually asking for
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| josie |
Well that's brill Claire, if she is that food focussed - you said earlier that she's not v keen on retrieving. Well, what you'd be doing is teaching her that retrieving=food, so all her attitude and keenness for food will transfer to retrieving. | ||
| Claire |
But Josie, when I tried to use food last time round when trying to get her retrieving again it didn't work. When she came back to me first time round with the dummy in her mouth and got a treat for a nice retrieve she would then either run out for the dummy and drop it miles away from me in a rush to get the treat, or, she just wouldn't leave my side and kept nudging my pocket This was why I removed food completely from all of my training
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| sako75 |
Claire ,
I had the same problems as you and my own way round it was as follows:- Firstly Whistle has to learn that she will NOT get the treat unless she actually touches your hand with the dummy. I notice that Whistle has been clicker trained in the past so the clicker should be "primed" already but if not spend a while "priming" the clicker. This is what I done (only took 2 evenings) - not in anyway textbook clicker training but here goes anyway. (Josie will have a fit reading this mickey mouse method of mine but it worked ).
1) Prime the clicker 2) Use a paint roller and basically muck about with Whistle until she grips the paint roller and returns in your general direction - place your hand on the roller and immediately C/T. (REMEMBER - all this was done in my kitchen , no more than 2-3 yards away). Repeat this about 10 times. 3) Throw the roller out about 2 yards , whistle should pick it readily and return to you , if not , kick it about and wind her up until she does - remember to C/T as soon as you touch the roller with your hand. 4) What I done next was introduced an exagerated hand signal - flat palm facing away from me and I also changed to a completely different command "here" in my case (I use this command ALL the time now along with the hand signal). Throw the roller - do the hand signal and command "here" - as soon as she touches your palm with the roller C/T. 5) I must have done around 30 or 40 of these in one session and Millie loved it.
6) Next , I increased the height of my hand gradually until I was able to get Millie straining to get the roller into my palm way above waist level. I done this to prove to myself that Millie understood what was required. 7) Next stage was to introduce the dummy - very easy and with equally good results.  Cold game was next , out in the garden with exactly the same results - Millie went out , I gave the "here" command and the exagerated hand signal - Millie strained to put the bird in my hand - BINGO !!!!
9) Warm game next and although she would be a little inconsistent , she soon got the hang of it and I have few problems now regarding delivery. All this sounds a bit crap but honestly Claire it is well worth giving it a try. I got some excellent advice from Mike and Josie and Millie is now a pretty good retriever of warm game - well , I think she is
I hope this may be of some help , if not just tell me to stop waffling Best of luck and I am certain Whistle will get the hang of it !!
Barry. |
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| windem bang |
I agree with Barry Claire, all my life I was against the use of treats for retrieves because my dogs did the same as yours and generally messed about with a dummy or didn't bring it back or spat it out or did the the hang around me routine.
In Bucks case I didn't even use the actual clicker, I used my voice and certain hand positions body positions. Dogs pick up on body language probably even faster than, voice, whistle or maybe even clicker. I've got the same result as Barry though not on game yet. It's well worth a good try Claire. Bill T. |
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| Bareve |
Barry - your version may not be the "proper" clicker method but even I could follow it and can see what progress you were gaining.
I've always thought the treat for food would create early spitting problems instead of firming up presentation but I might give this a go with my youngster and see how he does 
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| josie |
There is a big difference between just using food and using clicker and food.
The difference is this: If you are just using food, the food is rewarding the last thing the dog did. If the last thing the dog did was drop the dummy on the floor, then your food is just rewarding that. If you are using a clicker, it is WHAT THE DOG IS DOING WHEN THE CLICK HAPPENS which matters. Not the food part. Now, you cannot reward a dog with food for holding a dummy WHILE it is holding it, because dog cannot get both dummy and food in gob at once, so it always drops the dummy to get the food. But you can easily make a clicking noise WHILE the dog is holding it, because hearing a click and holding a dummy are compatible in a way which holding dummy and eating food aren't. Ta da! PS Barry's method is v good for someone devising their own retrieve. Look, the clicker is a tool and there are lots of ways to use it to train a retrieve. It sounds like Barry just has a good understanding of how dogs learn and has incorporated a new tool into his toolbox, which is all the clicker is really. |
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| Greyghost |
Back chaining is good for teaching the retrieve. This from Karen Pryor's clicker training site.
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/111 Back-chaining the retrieve with the clicker "Start with the drop or give. Establish a cue for that, then back up to the take, hold and give, then the take, carry, hold, and give. Train "go over and find it" with the object stationary on the floor, after that. Last of all, introduce the throw, watch, and chase (or chase and catch, for Frisbee) part of the retrieve. Doing this with clicks and treats is fast and fun and can be taught to puppies as soon as they can see, hear, and totter about on four legs. If you back-chain the retrieve you will always have a zesty, eager partner who will never try to play "keep-away" instead of fetching the object back to you. That is, you start with the last item in the chain—in the retrieve, it would be the give. You shape that behavior, put it on cue, and then insert the next part: hold until I say "give." Then you back up one more step, and teach the take, first from your hand, then from the ground. Building the chain backward ensures that you are always moving toward reinforcement—the prize at the end of the chain—and that each part in the chain is strengthened, every time, by the cue for the next part. In building a behavior chain or inserting new behaviors into the front end of a chain, you don't need to click and treat every unit. Direct reinforcement of the new behavior may not be necessary, since you are already using the next cue as a click. Continuing to the next link in the chain is more reinforcing than interrupting the chain with a minor reinforcer, such as a food treat. Going toward a known way to succeed can be so important that the dog would rather keep working toward the goal than stop to eat or to acknowledge praise. |
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| Helen S |
I did both things with Liesel when she really went off retrieving, "Carrot" and "Stick".
I used a very similar clicker method to what Barry has just described and once I had trained that at home I went to the paddock, then onto the farm etc etc. Every time I took her somewhere new I practised Sharon's method of insisting on some retrieves before I let Liesel run free or hunt (she had already emptied herself on the way there on the lead). I still do it, if I take her to a new place the first thing she has to do is a couple of retrieves to concentrate her mind on me. Barry has made me think by describing his method and until she is sound again I can do a bit of a refresher course to polish up the delivery. Helen S |
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| lagopuslagopus |
As I have said before I have always used treats and have never (yet) had a dog that spits out the dummy. If it drops it on the floor Josie you do NOT give the treat - simple. The puppy very quickly learns that it only gets the treat when the dummy is put into your hand. It normally only takes a few sessions before this is learnt. Ekko had even learnt to sit to deliver by 10 weeks using treats. | ||
| munstyman |
After reading the entire thread, there are two main areas of concern that jumps out at me.
There is an element of `possession' and added value of the warm retrieve, in that the dog does not `really' want to give it to you. And, the `experience' and `confidence' of the dog in doing the retrieve of warm and live game. With the first, you should set up a trade, and most of the posts cover this element of training, either in the form of treat, clicker or future activity. Most retrievers are so keen to get the next bird that speed of the retrieve is constantly working in the handlers favour. With non-specific retrievers we often have more complex issues to overcome. My training often uses the hunting drive to act as reward with strong hunting orientated dogs , similar to what Sharon has posted. However this can have pitfalls as the `frustrated' hunter can take it out on the bird
Naturally the `value' of the warm bird deminishes over time and quantity so just sticking with it and not putting pressure on the dog for a less than perfect retrieve, will in most cases sought themselves out. This is of course not to be confused with a `habit' forming, or a dog trying it on praise the good and ignore the bad is one way to go.
There may also be something in your training that is giving the dog the wrong signals. All too often I see praise being liberally given when the dog is on the way back with the retrieve. This is fine in very early training but works against you here. I do not give any praise until the dog has completed the task. i.e. the bird is in my hand and this includes its very first bird
The other thing to remember is that our dogs are bred to be `thinkers', they will quickly get bored picking birds on open ground, if you can easily pick the bird then do it, show the dog that you are a team. You just have to look at the different `satisfaction' level of the dog when it has had to hunt for a bird, all to often we do not show our appreciation in terms of praise to the dog at the appropriate time ( when this bird is in our hands). Just doing this simple thing can work huge in the dogs mind, the birds are not mine and yours but `ours', retrieving to hand will no longer be a problem .
With the second problem of tackling runners, it really comes down to experience and confidence,. Ideally you should of course have the dog sound on retrieving freshly shot dead game before moving on to runners. But as handlers we are going to get runners sooner or later, wether we wanted them or not You can not train for it so you just have to `manage it'. I would change the advise given before slightly `be aware of the bad and praise the good'
Peter p.s. puncture wounds by the dogs teeth is deemed as being to hard on game for the WATSUK. |
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| Claire |
OK, so this weekend I have spent working on her retrieves. Not the delivery because I felt I could work on the hold command etc. in my kitchen/hallway on an evening during the week when the nights are dark and therefore retrieving outdoors isn't really an option.
We have had some very good retrieves IMO but I would be grateful for some feedback on what we have done. I was using cold game and on Saturday I sent her out for a blind retrieve. I placed the bird about 150yds away and she didn't even see me get the bird out of the car so it was 100% blind. She did something that she has done several times before. She ran out with gusto, then started to slow down and stopped and looked back at me, again just lacking a wee bit of confidence because she hadn't yet found anything. So instead of using my whistle like I would have done until discussing this previously with Bill, I just shouted for her to get out, and she responded immediately, found the bird, sniffed it and ran all the way back to me So I immediately sent her out again and this time she swiftly picked the bird and brought it all the way back and dropped it about 2 foot away.
When she got to the bird I shouted "fetch it up" and on her way back I shouted good girl, just the once, and turned my back on her and walked away. This did result in her coming closer but not delivering to hand, but thats ok because I'll work on the hold command and delivery separately. 2nd retrieve with same bird was 200yds away and this time she went out for it, continued running past the 150yd mark, picked it up and brought it back to my feet
Last 2 retrieves using same bird were about 70 and 100yds away but this time they were hidden birds and as soon as I shouted "there" she immediately stopped running and started hunting and found the bird. Yesterday, with a new bird, I did another blind but this time it was 250yds away and this time she ran all the way out, didn't stop once, immediately picked the bird and brought it right back to my feet. I did the same thing in that I told her to "fetch it up" once I saw her put her head down to pick up the bird and I told her once she was a "good girl" on the way back and again I walked away from her. I planned on doing just one more retrieve and this time it was another hidden blind retrieve but I increased the distance to 150yds. Again she responded really well to my "there" command and she brought the bird back and dropped it about 4 feet away. So a mixed day of retrieves really, but this is excellent for Whistle who isn't the most keen of retrievers. However she seemed to really enjoy these long retrieves. I was glad that yesterday she picked the bird on first attempt as on several occasions she has run back without the bird but on sending her for a second time she picks it up. I guess its a confidence thing
So just to get this clear in my head, puncture wounds to a bird are not an eliminating fault in a UK Field Trial? If that is the case I find it bizarre! |
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| sako75 |
WOW Claire , 250 yard blind retrieves that is very impressive - well done !! I can't even get my little monkey to do 30 yards never mind 250
I am pleased that Whistle completed these retrieves , don't worry about the delivery just now , as you say that can be worked on in the comfort of your own home. I am a little surprised about the puncture wounds not being deemed as an eliminating fault in a trial - is this true ?? This brings me onto birds that have had some of their skin slightly torn but the ribs intact - is this an eliminating fault ?? I have had this a couple of times usually a small tear under the wings. Well done again Claire and keep us posted with your progress. Barry. |
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| weima |
From the J Regs
"All game should be examined for signs of hard mouth. A hard-mouthed dog seldom gives visible evidence of hardness. The dog will simply crush in one or both sides of the ribs. Visible inspection and blowing up the feathers on a bird will not disclose the damage, digital examination is imperative. Place the game in the palm of the hand, breast upwards, head forward, and feel the ribs with fingers and thumb. They should be round and firm. If they are caved in or flat this may be evidence of hard mouth. Be sure the game reaches the co-judge for examination. Judges should always satisfy themselves that the damage done has been caused by the dog, not by the shot or fall. Judges, for instance, must be clear about the difference between damage to the ribcage caused by shot and the quite distictive damage cased by a dog. Handlers must be given the opportunity of inspecting the damaged game in the presence of the Judges, but the Judges desicion is final. A sure sign of a good mouth is a dog bringing in live game whose head is up and eye bright. Superficial damage, if any, in this case can be ignored. At times,the rump of a strong runner may be gashed and look ugly. Care should be taken here, as it may be the result of a difficult capture or lack of experience in mastering a strong runner by a young dog. There should be no hesitation or sentiment with hard mouth. The dog must be discarded. |
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| Claire |
Thanks for that Claire. Its useful to know for sure and I know exactly what they mean when they say the runner's head should be up and it should have a bright eye. Thats exactly what I was describing in my original posting to this thread and it freaks me out eeeeuuw it just looks horrid
Thanks Barry I'm not really one to brag but I must admit to being rather chuft with the distance she was willing to go. Thankfully Gary was there as witness otherwise I'm sure he would have thought I was making it all up Now I just need to get her to do this when I'm out training with Tommy because so far, she has shown me up whenever I have told him about something she has done well. So at my next training session I'm saying nowt until she proves herself
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| Helen |
I'm sure you will get there with Whistle. She is coming on leaps and bounds and the 250 yard blind retrieve is a fantastic achievement.
Helen |
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| Greyghost |
Sounds like it is coming together Claire. I spent most of the weekend reading the training diary of Pippa's girl Lottie on the Gundog Club website. It made me realise that things don't have to happen quickly and if there are setbacks they are not insurmountable.
I'm never going to get to the standards of the dogs on here, especially with Holly who doesn't like swimming and has no drive, but recent threads have given me encouragement and I am beginning to understand some of the jargon . I love reading about them.
Well done Whistle, she is coming on nicely. |
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| Rhimad |
Well Done Claire and Whistle, sounds like you are doing really well.
I am going to steal a few of your exercises to try with Tikka, the last time she was out, which was last week, she decided that she didnt retrieve game anymore???? I have no idea why? she was going out to retrieve, she would pick it up start to come back to me and then put it down and leave it. Three times she did this and each time she started to bring it and then left it. She had even go as far as jumping into a fast flowing burn to retrive a feggie that had landed in a the burn and got stuck on some weed, she swam up the burn, picked up the bird, climbed the bank with it and then started to come towards me and the just put it down and sat looking at me
Tikka has always been a strong retriever, she is always been the one we send for difficult retrievers, runners etc, because you could always bank on her finding the bird and coming back. I will try some of the exercises you have been doing and see if it was just an off day or if she is on strike for more grub or something.....Of course husband said it is all my fault and I have probably ruined a damn good dog.  typical, I will fix this, if there is anything that needs fixing.
I am hoping as this was only her second time out this season as she had a litter of pups in September, that she is a bit out of sorts, I am quite nervous about taking her out and trying some retrieving, I will be gutted if she will no longer retrieve, nothing has happened to put her off, that I am aware of anyway. If anyone has any ideas then they will be greatly received (sensible ideas) 
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| windem bang |
That is very,very good Claire. A 250 yard blind retrieve is damn good by anyones standards. I don't know if there is a special name for it but I call "pushing" a dog further out as it runs in the direction of a retrieve "driving." Most dogs seem to learn it easily if they have got used to it during memories.
Well done again Claire, I'm sure Tom will be pleased too. ( Don't be surprised if he "throws you a wobbly" by setting up a long blind with an obstruction part way out to it. This could be a fence or a ditch or even just a little line of reedy grass. If he does and your dog fails, don't worry there's a way to compensate for that, it's sort of the next lesson on.) Bill T. |
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| Claire |
Well, I am under no illusions, in that I spent both Saturday and Sunday doing these retrieves in the same area and so I know her confidence will have built up. Now I need to really test her by doing these retrieves in a completely alien area to see if she still has the same confidence. Time will tell
Tracey I would imagine that Tikka is a bit out of sorts from her last litter. Whistle doesn't seem to have been affected, hormone wise, from her recent season but certainly she was affected after her previous season. Maybe it would be an idea to do no retrieving at all for a couple of weeks and then embark on doing the odd one gradually? I know exactly what you mean about being nervous. I stopped doing all retrieving with Whistle for a while because I had sickened her, and then I went to just 1 retrieve per fortnight and I used to dread them incase she didn't retrieve and I would be gutted. But doing just 1 very good retrieve every couple of weeks seemed to really help, as opposed to doing too many. And I gave her tonnes of praise each time which she lapped up
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| Rhimad |
Dogs aye who would have them!!!!! Tikka is our best dog, though I have to say Saker is coming brilliant. I am hoping that maybe Tikka was out of sorts and I suppose she is allowed to have one off day, only one though
That is exactly what I have done Claire, I havent done any retrieving with her all last week, John said we will take her out on her own for a walk about and shoot some feggies and see how she gets on at the weekend. Tikka is 7 now maybe she has decided it is time to retire
Unless it was something to do with Saker (daughter from previous litter)beign with her??? I dont know, I will let you know how we get on at the weekend. |
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| Claire |
Rightyho, another picking up day under the belt = more questions
Saturday was actually a pretty naff day, plenty of birds but not many being shot, resulting in a bag of 26 with Whistle only retrieving 4 of them. I wouldn't care but I kept changing my position and standing behind different guns in the hope they would be a better shot and I could get some work
First bird of the day was a cock, came down in a field on the other side of an electric fence. I could see it and it looked dead, so I put Whistle under the fence, she ran out with gusto, picked the thing up which suddenly decided to reincarnate itself = pricked bird, and Whistle had a great old time of mauling the effing thing whilst I was cursing the little sod. Not too much damage done but totally unacceptable and would she hell bring it back to me. Eventually she brought it close enough to the fence that I could grab it and I got her back under the fence with a boot up her @rse. Much to the amusement of one of the guns who had obviously overheard my choice language
To be fair on her, the above has never happened before and so whilst I do realise I have a lot of training ahead of me, I do feel a lot of it was down to inexperience and the fact it was her first retrieve of the day, lots of shots had been fired with little actually being shot, and she was very excited
Next bird that was shot was stone dead, but it landed a good 300yds from me over the brow of a hill. Gun confirmed it was dead as he could see it and so I sent Whistle. She legged it out at a rate of knots and disappeared over the brow of the hill. She then seemed to lose a bit of confidence, not helped by me not able to see her and therefore not sure what command to give. So she came back to me a couple of times. I stood on the brow of the hill and sent her again and directed her a little onto this bird, which she found and thankfully didn't maul but brought it back to me in her usual fashion of dropping it closeby. 3rd bird we both marked, but I made her wait until the drive was almost over as this was one of our best drives where a lot of birds come over quite suddenly and therefore a lot of shots are fired. Eventually I sent her for the bird, I couldn't see it, but knew (or thought I knew) where it had landed. It looked well hit so no reason for me to suspect a pricked bird or a runner. Whistle hunted the area really well, which is a very wet area quite thick with rushes. Eventually she went on point, but didn't hold it for very long and just as she was going in I saw the bird tucked deep inside the rushes. It gave a little squeak as she got hold of it, but made no effort to move or fly. I thought sh*t, she's gone and pegged a fresh bird However, I was fairly certain that no fresh bird could have been in this area as too many people and dogs had gone through it, prior to the start of the drive, so I was sure it was the bird I had marked but it was indeed pricked. Just to be sure, we put 2 dogs through the area to make sure there were no other birds and nothing was found. Unfortunately the chap that took the bird off me wasn't very good at checking to see if it was pricked and before I knew it, the bird was put into the landrover and taken away so no further chance of inspecting it
Last bird of the day for Whistle was one that I saw shot from a distance and it landed about 400yds away. So I told her to get out and go find it (as opposed to sending her out for a blind and me just standing waiting for her to return and risk her being out of sight and me not being able to give her correct encouragement) and I hunted her all the way along until we got to the area, again thick with rushes, that I saw the bird fall. Eventually she went on point and I thought oh bloody hell not again, but this time she held the point for even less time and went in and retrieved a very dead bird. So, it seems that having pointed a pricked bird this then confused her and she pointed a dead bird, but then she seemed to correct herself fairly swiftly on both occasions. What do you all think? Is this the case and is this how she may learn when to point and when not to point? Also would appreciate feedback on all of the above, particularly any actions that I have taken incase I am making mistakes, creating possible problems for the future or not helping Whistle in anyway. Apologies it is so long, I hope for those of you that have made it to the end I haven't bored you
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| Helen |
I think it's down to experience again. As the second time, she pointed for less time, she is learning about the different smells.
Helen |
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| windem bang |
I wasn't bored at all Claire. Your dog is inexperienced, pointing dead or wounded game is common. Experience, (next season now unfortunately) will help sort out that problem. Dogs just have to work it out for themselves.
My old girl Taz, has been picking up since she was 8 months old. Very occasionally she still makes a mistake and points on a lightly pricked bird. I think she has commited herself to the point before the fact that the scent says, "Wounded!" reaches her. I just leave her to work it out for herself. I would not have sent any of my dogs over a hill 300 yards away for a blind retrieve. Not even in an Open trial is that likely to ever be required, there is just too much that could go wrong. I would have walked with her to the hill crest then sent her. I don't think you did anything much wrong Claire but I do think you expected a little too much from an inexperienced dog. Out of your entire post the thing that would have worried me most if it had been my dog was the very 1st bird. You and I are at about the same stage with this. Our dogs sometimes still bugger about with a bird instead of calmly picking it and returning. Again it is probably going to need next season to sort out the problem. I'm going to take Buck to 2 or 3 shoots before the season ends to try to give him some experience without overdoing it and having him boil over. A bit of a balancing act based on the dogs reactions to birds falling and retrieves given from drive to drive. Too much might be worse than nothing at all ! The basic thing we both have to get right is the return and delivery with game. I now have no problems with dummies except that he holds them too loosely at times and they fall out of his mouth, - better that than the other way around! I am cursing that the season is coming to an end just as I'm starting to get some good deliveries on fresh shot game, I should have been at this stage 2 months ago, maybe more !!! Next season is a long way away, I'd advise you to do as much as you can NOW. Dogs don't get younger as time passes. Bill T. |
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| Claire |
This is the first time she has pointed a pricked bird and a dead bird, I guess it had to happen and I am glad she is learning from it.
Bill I feel the same in that I am hacked off that the season is already coming to an end because I don't feel I have done enough yet. Whistle has certainly gained a lot this season but I am eager for us both to gain more and just as we are both getting our confidence up the season is coming to an end
Having thought about it all, my feelings are that I should never have sent her for the first retrieve because the electric fence is a bugger to climb over and I feel I should only send her for retrieves that I have a bit more control over. Which agrees with you on sending her over the hill for the 2nd retrieve. I should have walked a bit closer first until I could at least keep her in my sights, and then sent her. You are not the first and I doubt you will be the last, to tell me my expectations are too high too soon
I have at least 1 other day picking up this Saturday and we may squeeze another day in on 1st Feb and then that will be it until probably Oct/Nov time next year 
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| windem bang |
Try having a word with your gamekeeper or some of the guys on your shoot Claire. You might be able to get some picking up on the grouse. I used to love that, most of what happens you can see. It's great - except when it's p*$$**g down rain and blowing a gale !
Bill T. |
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| windem bang |
P.S. If you get some picking up on the grouse you may find your dogs retrieving/ delivery etc. improves a lot. Being a smaller bird dogs find them easier to pick up and carry, they gain in confidence. This confidence often carries over onto the bigger birds, the pheasants.
Bill T. |
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| sako75 |
Claire ,
Stick with it and take advantage of your last two days , even if she buggers about with the deliveries at least she is gaining experience on warm game. I think it is one of these things where actual experience is everything , the more times you expose her to warm game the more she will learn. In my case , the more I expose Millie to warm game the more she takes the P**S 
Hope Saturday goes well for you and I look forwards to reading your update and tell Gary to stop missing all those phessies.............
Barry. |
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| sako75 |
Have you tried Whistle on partridge Claire ? - same as what Bill is saying re. size - Whistle may pick and deliver these more consistently than say a big cock pheasant. Millies first warm game was partridge and she done really well and I think the smaller size made all the difference.
Barry. |
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| Claire |
Hmmm I'm not sure if I can arrange picking up on the grouse but I'll ask around. We don't have a gamekeeper now as he died, so the job is now being shared between Gary and myself and 2 others. Its been very hard work and I suspect next season is going to be even harder, but good fun as I enjoy it and it helps keep me fit (ish)
Re partridge, well there used to be quite a few on our shoot but Saturday gone was the first day we saw just 1 partridge which unfortunately the gun missed
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| weima |
Experience, experience, experience! Event he best of dogs can point a wounded bird so I wouldn't get hung up on this. Out of the season you will have to do lots of work on cold game, like hiding it in rushes etc I hunting her on to it.
She'll get there but she may have to pick well over 100 birds before she gets confident. Pagan was a bit like that & even at the start of the season her retrieves were dire but she soon got back in the swing. Don't expect too much too soon. She is very young mentally IMO so has plenty of time. |
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| Claire |
Well at least she has had some experience this season, much more than she got last season. Although she turned 2 at the end of September she is still very immature, both physically and mentally. I've been thinking back and trying to work out how much warm game she has actually retrieved this season and I think it is in the region of 35 - 40.
Out of the season, Gary has agreed with the local farmer that he will shoot pigeons. Mostly to help improve his shot Could I make use of this with Whistle by instilling steadiness until the pigeon is shot and then sending her for the retrieve? Or perhaps just using the pigeon as training with cold game?
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| sako75 |
What sort of shooting is it Claire ?? Is Gary shooting over decoys or just shooting ferals out of barns etc??
If he is shooting from a hide over decoys then you could possibly use whistle sat at heel and send her for birds but not sure if it would be a good idea ?? I think Bill has done this so he would tell you more - I have never decoyed with a HPR as the retriever for the day. OOH tell a lie , I once took Logan out when he was very young and he ended up dragging my whole hide out across a stubble field in persuit of a pigeon (he was tethered to my hide poles) - never again
Barry. |
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| Helen |
LOL, that is funny! Would have loved to have seen that. The only negative thing I can think of is that pigeons are quite bad for novice retrievers as they lose a lot of feathers and the dog ends up with them in their mouth. Helen |
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| Claire |
Yes, the feather thing was in the back of my mind too tbh.
I'm not sure how Gary is planning on doing this tbh. |
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| sako75 |
One other negative aspect could be that Whistle would find it hard to mark birds down whilst trying to peer through a cammo net. Also when decoying you normally have dead birds as actual decoys so this could confuse Whistle unless she had a really positive mark on a bird. The loose feathers on woodies would worry me too !!!
You could always dress her up in a ghillie suit and have her sat absolutely still outside the hide and that way she would have clear view of the downed birds 
Happy decoying !!! Barry. |
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| windem bang |
Your story of the hide getting dragged made me laugh Barry. It happened to a friend of mine 35 years ago, his young springer did the same thing.
Claire, I've done pigeon, duck and goose shooting from hides with several H.P.R.'s. You need to have the dog sit or lie down with minimal movement in the hide and you need to sit quietly too with a wide brimmed hat on to obscure your face, (not that there's anything wrong with it! )
Some dogs just are not suited to this. Bucks uncle Dirk was one of these, he would begin to whine quietly after just a few minutes of remaining stationary. He thought it was utterly boring! I suspect Buck would be the same. Some sort of cammo coat or netting on Whistle might be a good idea, a weimaraner is a big expanse of silvery grey, I think pigeons would spot that even through a cammo hide. If it does work out O.K. for you, then you will have to teach her to pick only the fresh shot birds and ignore the shot birds placed out as decoys. If it has human hand scent on it it must not be touched. This could work against you on cold game retrieve practice or even on dummies. I found my dogs quickly understood what to do or not do when pigeon shooting and I had no problems later with hand scented retrieve practice. You would have to "suck it and see." Woodpigeon feathers are very loose and sort of powdery, some dogs do not like them. my old G.S.P. Taz is one of these dogs. Most dogs get used to it though and make the retrieve with a minimal amount of feathers left sticking to their mouths. Bill T. |
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| Claire |
Pigeons sound too complicated
Yesterday was a mixed day. Because it was the last driven day of the season, some of the beaters were shooting. So instead of me standing behind the guns all of the time to pick up, I had to take my turn beating. Which was fine, except I refuse to put Whistle into the beating line, so I didn't. I mainly acted as a stop which was fine for Whistle because she wasn't allowed or able to run out of control, but it did mean that she got less picking up
She picked 4 birds out of a bag of 32, but I was fairly happy with her retrieves so that is something. Her first retrieve was a pricked bird I came out of a wood having acted as a stop and she was off lead, suddenly she winded something and ran straight on. One of the guns said that a hen had gone down into some cover, he thought it was pricked, but he had just left it there as he doesn't like despatching birds Anyway, I thought Whistle was about to go on point, but she didn't! She slowed right down, thought about it, then went straight into the cover and brought a hen out which she brought straight back to me, I took it off her and quickly despatched it. So I was really pleased that firstly, she didn't try to mouth it and brought it straight back to me, and secondly my despatching skills are improving
2nd retrieve was a straight forward blind from about 150yds. I was told a cock had gone down and it was stone dead. I could eventually see the bird and sent Whistle out for it, she located it fairly quickly and brought it back in her usual manner of dropping it a bit away from me. 3rd retrieve was another easy one, a marked bird that landed about 70yds away. I waited for a few minutes, then sent her out for it and she brought it back, again dumping it near my feet. Her last retrieve was actually from horrid gorse. I saw a cock come down right in the middle of some gorse bushes that are hideously thick. At the end of the drive I hunted Whistle around the gorse until she located where the bird was. I got on my knees and saw that it was right in the middle of the bushes and there was no way I could reach in. So I managed to push some of the gorse out of the way with my leg, making a tiny entrance for Whistle, and bless her she went straight in and dragged this bird out for me. So whilst probably not the best of retrieves to watch, she certainly enabled me to get the bird as there was no way I could have got it without a dog. Interestingly, 3 of the birds she picked yesterday she picked up by the head/neck. She has done this before. Handy in that she can't damage the bird but she did struggle with one of the cocks because it was so big and heavy as it was one of the older ones that she almost dropped it
What I also noticed yesterday was just how much she is switching on and how much she has learnt this season. It is great to see her so keen and eager and yet I never feel she is out of control. Funnily, she has started to sit to the sound of the beaters You can't always hear the beaters until they get closer to you because the woods they are bringing through are quite large & dense and I've noticed a few times that when she starts to hear them getting louder she sits. She must be working out that beaters = birds fly out of wood = gun is fired = bird drops and Whistle gets a retrieve
I also volunteered to hike up a bloody huge hill to pick up a bird that I was told was stone dead. A gun had saw it come down, probably a good quarter of a mile away, over a burn and in a field full of sheep. He watched it through his binoculars and said it hadn't moved at all. So off Whistle and I went. I wanted to hunt her in this field to see if she was distracted at all by the sheep, she gave them a couple of glances and seemed to keep an eye on them as they started to run, but other than that she carried on hunting and not once did I get the feeling she might give chase. Anyway, we were being watched through the binoculars and this bird apparently got up and ran up to the stone dyke wall, neither Whistle nor I saw it as we were too far away. It then hopped over the wall. So much for it being dead! Whistle worked really well and I popped her over the wall and she tracked it for a good distance and then she seemed to lose its scent. The bird wasn't seen any more and so I suspect it must have been VERY much alive, saw Whistle coming and buggered off as sadly we never found it Shame we didn't find it as it will undoubtedly go off to die and it was a shame for Whistle because she had hunted so well and we were both blooming knackered
So that was our last day of the season Although Gary and I might go out for a cheeky rough day on Friday, just the 2 of us so that we can control what we do and where we go.
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| sako75 |
Nice one Claire , sounds like you had a decent sort of day with many positives !! Hope you have a good day on Friday , I am out on my local estate on Friday doing a spot of picking up / beating. Beaters day , but there ain't many birds left - still , I am looking forward to it.
Barry. |
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| Helen |
Sounds like a good end to the season. She is doing really well.
Helen |
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| Claire |
Just as well Saturday was a decent day for Whistle because we are now not having a rough day on Friday Its been decided that the birds that are left should not be shot and should be left, hopefully for next season. Whilst I understand this, I cannot help feeling disappointed as I wanted to get Whistle out one more time. Oh well......
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| Rhimad |
Never mind...we can look forward to helping Rob nad Helen grouse counting. Helen wont be doing to much as she will be to fat
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| Helen |
I am away for one afternoon  lol! Going to try and do a little bit..if I can!!
Helen |
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