zacharias
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Pointing on a Driven Shoot.Hi everyone,
Like I said on a post last week and am getting to grips with traing my Hungarian Vizsla.
It his first season on a driven shoot and all the training I have done seems to be paying off. After a few shooting days he seems to know what is expected of him.
My confusion lies with pointing. My understanding is that HPR real aim in life is to quarter into the wind, point game then flush on command.
Is this the case when hunting in the beating line ? driven shoots tend to be down wind, should my dog be pointing ? I have seen him point very briefly at ground where game has been sat, but nothing significant like a fully blown point that last more than a few seconds ?
Its worth mentioning that I have never trained my dog with live game for him to point at as I only took the decision to work him late into the summer prior to the season starting.......
any thoughts ?
Many Thanks.
Robert.
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countrygirl
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Hi Robert,
the answer to this is propley it all depends on what you want to do with your dog in the long run.
If you are intending to go on and field trial then working him as a beating dog wont do him any good atall.
If how ever you are only intending to use him for beating then it wont matter if he dosent point. You dog is only young and as you say he is only pointing resudual(spel) sent at the moment this is lack of experiance on his part. Whait I do with my youngsters is to take them out onto the shoot in February and do hunting and pointing practice then using a long line to get them to hold point by this time your dog would of sorted out scent more.
I dont have a problem with hps's fitting into what ever work you have available to them(my wirehairs are used as picking up dogs) but there are people on here that will say it is a waste not to work them to their full abilitys but we arnt all lucky enough to be able to shoot over our dogs
Hope this is of some help
Caz
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DesO'Neile
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This could come out all wrong, but I have never been able to understand the motivation to take an HPR to a driven shoot other than to give it a bit of retrieving practice. If I ever go back to beating it will be with some kind of spaniel. Having said all that if the future for your dog is beating on a driven shoot then I don't think you should be expecting/wanting it to point. The trouble could come if you ever decide you want to use the dog to fulfill it's job descritpion.
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windem bang
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I think a dog that doesn't point during driven shoots is deserving of bonus marks ! I think that whether you are beating or picking up a dog that insists on pointing every unshot bird is a bloomin nuisance !
I work my G.S.P. as a picking up dog. It is a real pest when at the end of a drive I want to move on to the next drive and he is locked solid onto a bird a long way off somewhere in thick woodlands.
I could not work him as a beaters dog ,his range would be far too much but good luck to the folk whos dogs would keep within 20 -25 yards.
Basically I agreed with Caz post, if you have no intention of trialing and your dog will work at easy ranges then why not enjoy your beating with it whether it points or not.
Bill T.
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kiwi
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i was very anti in taking my dogs on the beating line, but i enjoyed the experience and i think the dogs got alot out of it in the controlled way i used them, they spent as much time on the lead as off it and i picked the times when i let them off, if anything the exposure to all those birds over those months will set them up for life.
the only sad bit was all the picking up seemed to reserved for the labs and spaniels....however running my dogs over the ground already cleaned up by the proper gundogs and finding birds was very satisfying.
with abit of pratice you can allow your hpr to find and hold point while still holding your place in the beating line  just wait til the spaniels are working well away.
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Bareve
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| kiwi wrote: | i
with abit of pratice you can allow your hpr to find and hold point while still holding your place in the beating line just wait til the spaniels are working well away. |
That's probably one of the best bits of advice to give if you are beating, especially in a wood. Wait until the line get's ahead and then work your dog behind the line as such and that way they tend to hunt better instead of trying to compete with the other dogs in the line. If you then say to the keeper you would like to do it this way and that way you will stop any running birds coming back and being missed they will see it as a good move.
Good luck - I know Rory Major has "always" said you can do everything with a HPR and trial them if you want to but it does take a bit more "handling". I do beating now with my old F/T dog as he became too unsteady for F/T's and he loves it. Sometimes he points sometimes he just bumps them, especially if someone else is coming close, but it keeps him happy and gives me a dog to go beating if I have to beat rather than pick up. If someone else finds him on point I've always told the beaters just tell him to "get in" and he flushes the bird and carries on. As most of the dogs on the shoot are HPR's we are all experienced enough to come across a pointing dog and tell them to "get in" rather than drag their owner across the line to deal with it 
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tashap
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my keeper gets pee'd if we lag back...
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josie
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The (not vast number of) times I've beaten, it's been possible to find space away from the other dogs, whether that's by hanging back slightly or by moving outwards. If I see or hear a spaniel coming and Slate's on point, I quickly tell her to flush before the spaniel gets the chance to flush the game instead. I stay much closer to her than on open ground/FTs, so I can usually hear if other dogs are coming. If no other dogs are near I let her hold the point a bit longer before the flush. I don't know if any of that is a good idea but it seems to work ok for us. She is not as fast or busy as a spaniel but sometimes we find game the spaniels have skipped over in their haste.
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DesO'Neile
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I suppose it is a generation thing but when somebody "pays" me to do a job I like to be able to look them straight in the eye when I take their "money". Even leaving the safety considerations aside the idea of not being where my keeper wants me in the line, or not making every concievable effort to be there is a total anathema to me. To date I have never been refused access to training facilites and I put it down to the fact that I work very hard when beating. In my estimation it would be better to beat without a dog and do my utmost to become indispensable, I even ended up running the beating line on one shoot, and therefore be able to have free run of the estate and it's environs to train on.
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windem bang
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| DesO'Neile wrote: | | I suppose it is a generation thing |
I have to agree with that Des. It is the job you are doing that counts. Driven shooting is an expensive participant sport if you are one of the guns and it is a very busy and possibly anxious day for a keeper whos livelihood may depend upon a good showing of birds. A keeper on a beating line has a lot of people to think about - as far as humanly possible if I am in a beating line I try to make sure that I am not one of those people by doing what I'm told and by having a dog with me suitable for the job. Buck isn't suitable to be a beating dog. He does range too wide for woodlands and he does point. I never use him for beating.
Just a few weeks ago a keeper told me of a woman with an H.P.R. who'd come to beat on his shoot. They had begun to move forward through the woodland when the lady called out ecstatically ," Oh ! Look ! My dog's pointing !" This keeper is somewhat rough and I burst out laughing when I heard that he'd shouted back to her , " So f-ing what !!! It's a f-ing pointer isn't it ? !!" To my mind that is typical of the way in which many keepers think. They have enough to think and worry about without having to make too many allowances for us oddball types with pointers.
I have seen H.P.R.'s that made pretty good beating dogs but every one of them - I.M.O. - lacked range and pace on open ground. I suppose it's horses for courses yet again.
Bill T.
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tashap
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I'm afraid I have to agree with both Des and Bill, the keepers I work for are hard working and their days are brought and paid for by people who will either come back or not come back dependant upon how their experience has gone at the end of the day I am playing with their living and they can't afford for me to spend my time training my dog and ruining their shoot. Its also their main income and pays for the next years shoot so its important that it goes well.
My dogs training is something I can do in my own time in my own hours I work hard for the money that I get which has often resulted in a bonus but the best thing is that if I need to do something specific I can ask and they will help me, sometimes that means on a shoot day and if they can fit it in without disturbing the day then they will but if not they often have gone out of their way to give me a hand.
I wanted to do deer tracking for example and fox in line with the german tests and one of my keepers shot me the things I needed and gave me lessons on how to recognise deer by type, movement etc and let me come out with them to do some recovery with and without clients, they also helped me with pest control techniques I wanted to learn like trapping mink.
You can usually tell the people who have really only come to train their dogs to be honest they aren't that appreciative and rarely hang around for long.
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josie
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I'm not too sure this is an "either" "or" thing - is training your dog and working your best on a shoot necessarily mutually exclusive?? It seems a bit simplistic to say "if you don't totally forget about your dog's training needs on a shoot, then you are not doing your bit for the good of the shoot".
Personally, I've been explicitly ASKED by a keeper to work wider and at the edges, or to hang back slightly (not too far and not unsafely - again, people taking extremist views!) and get the birds the spaniels miss with my "pointing" HPR. I'm not really sure how this can be to the detriment of the shoot if I was asked to do it by the keeper.
There is no right or wrong answer to this one and it's oversimplifying things to say there is - you have to assess the individual shoot, both the ground and the keeper concerned (their needs) - and what you want to achieve with your particular dog (your needs) and decide if there is any way the two can meet. There are as many different answers as there are dogs and shoots!
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windem bang
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It is very easy to make a bad mistake that can wreck the chances of others for years. I took my first Brittany to a shoot along with my two labs to work as a picker up. The landowner knew me and had asked me to come - this may have got up the keepers nose as he was pretty new there and didn't know me at all.
Upon arrival the keeper told me to come with him as a beater. He thought I was column dodging and insisted over the top of every objection I made that I had "a spaniel" and since he was short of beaters she would be worked as one !  That particular Brittany had already won two grouse trials competing against G.S.P.'s and anything else that happened to be there - she was no slouch at running or ranging .
The wood was thick and I had to go down onto hands and knees to crawl through it. The wind was blowing right up my backside and I had a very good idea what would happen if I let her off in there ! I gave informing the keeper one last try to which he told me to get on with it or to bugger off - more or less !
I can remember thinking ," Well hell mend you - coz I won't !" as I cast her off to hunt beside the spaniels and labs already in there. It turned out even worse than I'd thought it would. On that tailwind she scudded out of view in an instant and went right to the woods far end where she began to hunt it back towards us. Unknown to me she'd been accompanied by one or two other dogs on her outrun and between them they did a smashing job of flushing birds out to the sides or back over our heads.
Somewhere out in front of us lads crawling on hands and knees under the fir tree branches the dogs going forward met the dogs coming back and they produced a great show of pheasants - but not over the guns ! 
The keeper was bloody furious and wasted no time in having words with his boss. His boss put him firmly in his "place" and told him next time a man tried to tell him something he should listen.
The keeper involved left that estate years ago but I don't suppose he has a good word to say for H.P.R.'s - or their "handlers !!!"
I have now had 4 G.S.P.'s and two Brittanies. The only one who would work well as a beaters dog is old Taz ,her natural range is very short. For that and for other reasons I have never bred from her ,she is spayed. There are H.P.R. breeds whos natural pace and range is less than that of most G.S.P.'s . If I were really wanting to work a H.P.R. as a beating dog I would give myself the best possible start by buying one of those breeds.
Bill T.
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Bareve
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| josie wrote: |
Personally, I've been explicitly ASKED by a keeper to work wider and at the edges, or to hang back slightly (not too far and not unsafely - again, people taking extremist views!) and get the birds the spaniels miss with my "pointing" HPR. I'm not really sure how this can be to the detriment of the shoot if I was asked to do it by the keeper.
There is no right or wrong answer to this one and it's oversimplifying things to say there is - you have to assess the individual shoot, both the ground and the keeper concerned (their needs) - and what you want to achieve with your particular dog (your needs) and decide if there is any way the two can meet. There are as many different answers as there are dogs and shoots! |
I'm with you here Josie as it's down to the keeper and yourself. As I said more often or not to hang back that little bit means you have some clear ground in front of you and you do end up sweeping up on birds missed by the other beaters. It's not something I would do without asking and it's not something I would do in a game strip in full view of the guns (I would keep my dog on a lead if keeping a dog close was an issue). But in the thick woods that we end up in (where I cannot even see the next beater in line) there is little chance of the whole line staying "in line" so there is no way the host can see what I'm doing. By the same token if you get stuck in mud, or behind a wall of brambles, are you always aware that you've dropped behind the line and does the rest of the line know what's happened?
It's a compromise sort of thing - beating with dogs in a game strip is so different to beating with dogs in a wood. Some you will get away with and some you will not and it's up to you to suss out when the opportunity arises without causing the keeper problems.
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tashap
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its different if you've been asked to do something by the keeper thats common sense isn't it? We work the edge of the beating line and have to cover more ground than most of the other dogs along a waters edge in some parts great for the dogs but I'd never do that independantly if I'm being paid for it.
I think its more reinforcing training rather than specifically training itself.
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Bareve
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No I wouldn't advocate doing your own thing on a shoot as it's the quickest way of being "un-invited". As I said it works for us but you still have to apply common sense especially if Harry's (landowner) on the warpath so you keep your head down and do what he wants you to do regardless of what you've done in the past
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lou
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Im finding this thread very interesting and informative
From the sounds of things some of the shoots mentioned here are the big 'money' ones so I guess the rules and etiquette will vary considerably from shoot to shoot.
I have taken Connie out a few days this season for the first time and have learnt quite alot from it. Its a small local shoot. The guy who runs it is aware that Connie doesn't work like a spaniel so lets us beat when 'no damage can be done' as he puts it 
There is one guy that comes along with a labxGWP and he is always asked to get into the thick of it. I think I'd be very proud if Connie and I could be called on like that unlikely though.
It tickles me when Connie points inbetween drives over ground that the spaniels have already covered so I might ask to do what Sharon does sometimes and ask if we can sweep behind the spaniels in areas where 'we can do no harm' particularly if the wind direction is in our favour.
I suppose I am guilty of being one of those people who wants to go to help train their dog but the other people there don't scoff at me. maybe its because its a small friendly local shoot? I have no experience of others. I feel very welcome.
Louise
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langhaar
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I only took dogs in the beating line to learn some manners and never let them off the lead, but this was on a large private shoot where unsteady dogs aren't tolerated.The vizsla did become reliable and was let off but I didn't want him to have too much experience of herding birds. It's a pain too when he went on point as you were quickly out of the line. Making him flush under these circumstances wasn't positive only perhaps steadiness experience but that changes when they are shot over.Restricting a young HPR from ranging to me is taking aways it's very soul, why drive your ferrari like a lada?
On a smaller shoot I have worked Afra in a beating line but at a time when she was reliable but even then she had the odd chase of a deer or three.They did have back guns who never came to terms with a pointing breed, they couldn't shoot birds that weren't driven! Her forte is picking up runners so the shoot quickly learnt she was more of an assett to them picking up.
If I wanted beating work, in line or boundries I'd use a flushing breed, first choice a cocker ! I personally wouldn't want to work my square pegs in round holes.
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DesO'Neile
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Doesn't fit in with an actual driven shoot but there is an area were I work my dogs called The Orchard. Funny looking orchard if you ask me as the one prerequisite for orchards is fruit trees and Ray Mears I ain't but I don't recognise any fruit trees. However, I have now beaten out this two acre plot four times in the last week with Chris and I have yet to see him point a bird in it. I'm not saying he hasn't pointed any but I have yet to see him point one and I would say we have pushed 100+ birds out of it. If you consider that when hunting for the downed birds he is quite content to point live wounded game it suggests he knows the difference in the two jobs.
Only problem I am having now is to get him to lift a sitting wounded bird. I tried to ring Alex over the weekend to see what commands the Danes use for these different situations as I don't want him to peg unshot game which he may start to do if I encourage him to lift wounded game with the wrong command.
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langhaar
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I was told in Finland pointing dogs are taught to come off their point, find their handler and resume pointing when relocating the bird. Do the Danes teach this too?
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windem bang
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| langhaar wrote: |
If I wanted beating work, in line or boundries I'd use a flushing breed, first choice a cocker ! I personally wouldn't want to work my square pegs in round holes. |
That is the way I feel too but I do recognize that some people only have one dog so that dog has to be "it."
Charlie, my cocker, has been a revelation to me. This is his first shooting season yet everything has come so easily to him. All of his training is encompassed in the training of what not to do. What to do, he was born knowing.
On the odd occasion when a keeper has asked me this year to work my dog through a small section of thick woodland to push birds in a certain direction , I have been able to send Charlie in ,Buck has only been let loose upon the world 3 or 4 times.
It has been an odd sort of season, 3 times now I have asked to go beating on some of the easier drives because I want the work experience for Charlie. I have still never been. It seems that Buck and Charlie are needed more as picking up dogs........ When I think back to how difficult it was for me to get picking up work for my labs when I first started on big shoots this development is gobsmacking !
Bill T.
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cressy
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Chase has only been beating once, on lead and for manners training. He was a revelation and so much better than I feared . The keeper knew what I was wanting to do with Chase in advance, gave me permission to work him and we chose a day specifically when he knew he had plenty of beaters.
Mugi on the otherhand - beating is lovely for him at his advanced age. He only hunts free though on open land when the wind is favourable, cos his natural range is not as great as it was a couple of years ago he is fine. When the wind is 'wrong' or we are in the woods he beats on a flexi lead no he is too deaf to hear his whistle. When he was able to obey the whistle I could work him to that as he soon learned that he had to stay close in that environment.
I have now got my ESS to beat with, the plan being that working hard on the shoot during the season gives me access to fab training ground out of season so benefitting Chase.
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langhaar
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| Quote: | | I have now got my ESS to beat with, the plan being that working hard on the shoot during the season gives me access to fab training ground out of season so benefitting Chase |
I agree with you Cressy, that's what I would do. Have trudged many a mile without any dogs to gain access to training ground where I can teach the dogs what to do in my own time.
| Quote: | | It seems that Buck and Charlie are needed more as picking up dogs........ |
I do find the retrieving breeds are used more as sweepers on large shoots while on smaller ones dogs who put pricked birds and high flyers into the bag without damage are valued regardless of breed. A good picking up team can make a day a profitable one, finding 4 runners at £30 a bird pays for a ton of wheat or more and provides a good opportunity to ask the keeper for pointing ground and dogging in work.
Whilst I agree some HPR owners want to do as much as possible with their dogs, if I was paying for a driven day I'd far rather have a team of beaters with cockers than a team with HPR's.
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josie
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Bill, what breeding is Charlie? I've often fancied a cocker when the time comes to downsize
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tashap
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have to admit I became a traitor and brought a cocker...  she's marvelous in the beating line much easier to handle and can pretty much go in anywhere and doesn't seem to have any problems with disappeaing into the brambles that Bonnie does with her size... fun little dogs with lots of energy and of course SO much easier to chuck over a fence!!
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langhaar
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No not a traitor Tashap , only owning horses for courses !
Have bred 2 litters from a Cataran daughter to Ft Ch Larford Evan and wish I'd kept something from these litters but I do see these progeny as they are owned by beatkeepers and a headkeeper. Super, super dogs and now in their prime. Good to handle flushing breeds too!
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windem bang
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Hi Josie, thought I'd better post this while I remember
Charlies sire is Heolybwlch Mayhem [ won a novice field trial about 5 weeks ago]
Dam is - Taponoth Tyrant
He has 40 F.T.CH.'s in his pedigree and several dogs that won but which didn't reach that status.
Charlie is still only 18 months old and is already one of the best (and most infuriating !) dogs I have ever had the pleasure of owning. His prey drive is sky high yet he has willingness to please to spare ! If you want to do something then so does Charlie. He is the first cocker I have ever owned and I am very impressed by this breed.
A great deal of his breeding is Welsh or Welsh borders.
Bill T.
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Rowoodhill
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HPR's beating...There have been some really good comments on this topic...
All shoots vary, but sometimes the more organised ones, are the bigger / commercial shoots.
I never beat nowadays because it really is not how an HPR works. I would love to work my dogs and have them shot over, but there isn't that type of ground or opportunity round here.
I pick up with my dogs now and some of my Vizsla's do cope. I think the key difference is that an HPR you want to hunt for live game, and on a shoot you are looking for dead or wounded birds. My young Vizsla has never been allowed to hunt (for live game), and I haven't really done any quartering with her, just retrieving.
There is nothing worse when picking up on a shoot, when you have a load of dead birds to pick and the Vizzie's have taken off after some live bird, or a stuck somewhere on point on a bird that is alive, and you don't know where they are.
It is such a shame not to be able to use them to their full potential / capabilities, but at least they are doing some working, and enjoying themselves.
I now know why there are so many labs & spaniels working on driven shoots, and would be lost without my little fox red lab.
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