Pointing Style???

Mike · Pointing Style???

What is the prefered UK style of pointing? Been reading a few US books and they style there dogs up, high heads and 12 O'clock tails, which although it sounds daft I bet it is really useful in high cover, probably helps you spot your dog if it is half a mile away as well!!!

Do UK trainers style the dog up when it's on point?

Helen

No, we just leave them with their own particular style - that goes for the pointers and setter as well. We have one pointer who is VERY stylish and one not so stylish but at the end of the day, they find and hold the game so we are happy.

Firstly, as this is an hpr forum Laughing

,

here is our pointer who doesn't always have a stylish point:

and this is our pointer that I think does have a stylish point:

I do find that Harvey, the gwp is a lot harder to spot in the heather than the pointers.

Helen

Mike

Would you consider it worthwhile if you could make the point more stylish Helen? Would any UK field trialers attempt to train a more stylish point? I get the impression that it is common practice in the US.

lazerbeam

Here's a thought, has anyone noticed that the point can vary slightly between fur and feather?
With fur my GWP tends to adopt a lower body position with a straight out tail,
on feather, the body position seems more streatched with a higher tail carridge.
I was told this some time ago by a trainer who had worked pointers for years that he could tell by the point if it was fur or feather. I thought it was a wind up, but I'm still learning to read my lad and there does appears to be a suble difference.
Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

If I could figure out how to get pictures on the site I'de give you an examople.

Mike

Lazerbeam, if you look here it should help:

http://workinghprs.myfastforum.org/ftopic12.php

If not mail them to me and i'll sort it out Laughing

Prairie Hunter

Hello all,

I am in the US, and have 2 German Shorthairs. I have trained several dogs, and in my opinion, that whole “styling up” thing is over rated, if it works at all. I have seen a lot of trainers “styling up” their dogs on point (stroking the trail upward), but I have yet to see it make a noticeable difference. I have found that as a pup or young dog gains more confidence and experience, its tail tends to get higher.

Most US German Shorthairs do not have 12 o’clock tails (10 - 11 o'clock is more like it). However, some breeders are breeding for them. They will only breed dogs with a high tail set to get a tail more like an English Pointer. However, I think it looks unnatural on a German Shorthair.

A 12 o’clock tail while on point is highly prized among US English Pointer owners and breeders. Most US bred English Pointers will hold their tails at 12 o’clock or close to it. I doubt a dog that holds its tail low on point would be used for breeding by almost US breeder.

Of course, pointing style has little to do with how effective a dog is. I guess it is just a matter preference.

Helen

admin

That is really interesting, Prairie Hunter. Confused

In the UK our breed description of the GSP contains an option for the undocked tail, which states: "Carried horizontally or just below line of back."

As you might know, we face a ban on docking in the UK. Yes, there is an exemption for working dogs (although it is yet to be determined how people will prove they have a "working dog"). But us people with dual purpose HPRs, who both work and show their dogs, are facing a bit of a dilemma because they are passing legislation trying to stop those who dock their dogs as "working dogs" from showing them. Evil or Very Mad

Which is going to totally balls up the whole dual purpose HPR thing. Sad

Anyway, I was asking about the GSP tail position because you say some breeders are deliberately breeding for higher tail position - that would be a nightmare for the breed in the UK because breeders are now going to be deliberately breeding for tails that don't loop over the back and aren't carried high, but are "Carried horizontally or just below line of back." Very Happy

Prairie Hunter

Helen,

These dogs are bred to carry their tails high on point. Most English Pointers with 12’clock tails will hold them pretty close to 12 o’clock even as small puppies.

Like I said, I don’t believe you can really train a dog to hold its tail higher while on point. I have seen lots of trainers stroke or push a pup’s tail higher while it’s pointing in an attempt to “style them up.” The tail will usually stay in that position for a while on that point. However, their tail almost always goes back to the original position the very next time they point. Once a pup gains more confidence and experience through bird continual contacts, it will usually get more intense on point, and carry its tail higher.

A high head and high tail while pointing is the standard for what pointers are expected to look like in the US, especially among field trialers. I have attached a link to a site showing some pointers (note the high head and 12 o’clock tail). Some kennels are even breeding for straight tails held at 12 o’clock.

http://www.pinehillkennels.com/dog.php?dogID=01

http://www.wynotpointers.com/

Note in this next link how high even the young dogs hold their tails. They aren't 12 o'clock tails yet, but the probably will be once they mature.

http://www.lostriverkennels.com/

English Setters in the US are pretty much bred the same way. Some purely hunting lines may not have 12 o’clock tails, but most will hold their tail close to that position. Among those that field trial setters, the tail needs to be held at that 12 o’clock position. In field trials, style plays a big part in winning, and that is the style judges look for.

Admin,

I didn’t realize there was a ban on docking tails in the UK now. That is too bad. It will probably have a great impact on the breeding of GSPs in the UK. If UK breeders start breeding for dogs that carry their tails lower, it will pretty much eliminate UK dogs from being imported to the US.

It has been my experience that most people in the US want, and expect, a GSP with a higher tail on point (10 o’clock - 11 o’clock being about normal). Among the field trial crowd, the higher the tail the better. This has led, in some cases, to what appears to me to be a tail set unnaturally high on the dog's back in some field trial lines.

A ban on tail docking has come up from time to time in the US, but most of the breed clubs, hunters, field trailers, and working dog groups have come out strongly against such a ban. So, unless the animal rights groups can find a way to sneak legislation through, I don’t see it happening in the US in the near future.

Helen

mm, I don't really like that style. I think they look more stylish with the tails straight out behind them but again, that's personal preference. It's interesting to see two different countries with two different pointing styles. I've already learnt something from being on this board and it's been less than 24 hours!

There is an exemption for working dogs but, if the bill goes through as it is, you will not be allowed to show a docked dog at a show where the public pay money to enter. Absolutely bonkers if you ask me as there are shows over here where you don't have to pay to get in. It's only the championship shows that the public pay.

Helen

Mike

I'm with Helen the 12 O'clock tail isn't really my thing! Although the more I see of it the less odd it looks!
Prarie Hunter they are some really interesting links, I do like some of the intensity the dogs are showing regardless of the position of the tails Cool

And don't get me started on tail docking Evil or Very Mad

Flyingm

If they ban tail docking, will they ban castration as well? Rolling Eyes

Mike

See I told you not to get me started......

Tail docking in the UK is a completely emotional thing, reason and rationality go out the window. Even if you could give cast iron 100% guarentee that there was zero pain and no drawbacks the anti's would still want it stoppped.... Evil or Very Mad

josie

Appparently "castration" is not considered "mutilation" on their little typed up list of "mutilations". Rolling Eyes

I want to know about farm animals, who will continue to be docked - do they not feel pain? Question

If not, why not? If they do, why is it ok for them to be docked but not ok for dogs? Question

Higgins

Here in the States, they breed pointers for 12:00 tails. A lot of these dogs are field trial types. Run off horseback. All of my training and hunting is for foot hunters. I try to find the dogs the trialers consider washouts. Dogs that hunt within range.

Brad Higgins

Mike

Hi Higgins,
I've asked admin to look at the HTML stuff. In the mean time i've downloaded the pic (think I got the right one?) and hosted it on photobucket (if thats ok?) It may be a security thing on the server for your website rather than this end though. Very Happy

Hope that helps

Mike

Hi Brad,
I've got admin to switch on the HTML option and it still doesn't work, reckon it must be some protection on your server / website, so people don't go nicking your bandwidth!

Higgins

Thanks for all the help. I continue to show my computer ignorance.

Regards,

Brad Higgins
www.gundogwhisperer.com

Prairie Hunter

Mike,

Note the difference in tail position on the dogs in Brad's picture. The pointer has the 12 o'clock tail, and the shorhair in front is more like 10 - 11 o'clock. This are pretty typical for those two breeds in the US.

Mike

Thats embarrasing I didn't even notice they where two different breeds Embarassed

But your right the tail position is quite different. The pointer looks very broad across the chest, quite unlike the show pointers in the UK (TBH I don't think I have ever seen a working pointer in the flesh) I am right in thinking that when you refer to a pointer you are refering to what we would call an English pointer?

Higgins

This is a photo of a couple of our field bred English Pointers here in the States. The pointer in the past photo is a typical Elhew breeding of an English Pointer. I have other pictures on the website. Some training and hunting movie clips too.

Brad Higgins
www.gundogwhisperer.com

Brittany on point

Quail Johnnyhouse

Rhimad

A couple of weeks ago a gentleman told me that he was told by a well known breeder of GWPs that you have to teach a GWP point, I told him that was rubbish we have 6 wires and havent had to teach any of them to point, it is something they naturally do.

I just thought this guy had miss heard the breeder or miss interpreted what they had told him, then last night another gentleman called and asked for advice on teaching a GWP to point, he had also had a dog from the same breeder.......I have never had to teach one of ours to point and I have never heard of anyone with GWPs having to teach it to point. Am i missing the plot somewhere Exclamation

Mike

Rhimad,
On Derry Argue's video "the pointing instinct" he has a either a GWP or GSP in for training at 2 years old I think. The dog had never pointed in its life, within 20 minutes he had awakened the pointing instinct in this dog. He used dizzied pigeons in a line in tall grass, working dog into the wind. Dog was on check cord / lead with owner at side. Dog was introduced directly in the scent cone, not much interest on first bird, watched it fly off (Derry had a stick to make them flush) Some interest in second bird, quite a lot of scenting for the third and hard point for the fourth!!! It was amazing to watch.
I think the gentlemen have been misinformed, you can certainly awaken a dormant pointing instinct. But if it isn't in there in the first place you need to get another dog (Well if you want it to point!!! Laughing

)

Mike

Brad, Love the Johnny house!! Looks so much more grand than the one I am building for the Bob's i am bringing on. How big is it? How many birds do you keep in it? What sort of birds? Are they kept in two seperate groups? I assume the bits on the side of the building are to make it easier to get the birds out for training?

Rhimad

I total agree Mike, We had a GWP come from a show kennel that was surplus to requirements and had done nothing, she barely knew her name, after basic training tried her down by the Pheasant pens on a long line and straight away we had a point.

This gentleman that called last night was really confused poor chap, he said he had gone to this kennel as they are a working kennel, but seem to have given the guy nothing but duff information.

He is going to bring his dog across to us to give him a hand with training as he has never worked a dog before and takes on a GWP, the breeder told they were as easy as training a Lab.... Exclamation

I really do wonder sometimes : Rolling Eyes

Helen

Wow, those pointers are in incredible condition. I had a quick look at your website, it's really good. Couldn't view everything as I'm still on dial up.

Have to laugh about teaching gwp's to point! There must be something wrong in the breeding if you have to go that far. Wonder how you go about teaching to point? Is he interested in the gsp club training classes?

Helen

Rhimad

Im very tempted to contact this kennel and ask for advice on teaching a wire to point Very Happy

It is our lines Helen, so excellent we dont need to teach point Very Happy

I have told the guy about the GSP Club, they way we are going we could set up our own club for GWPs as it is mainly us at the GSP Club.

Prairie Hunter

Brad,

I love that high head, high tail, intense point. Those are some good looking pointers (and, that comes from a GSP man).

Vital K9

Now this tail position thing has got me interested! Can anyone confirm whether the US Vizsla has been actively bred to have a very high tail carriage?

The reason I ask is that I've observed a huge difference in the tail carriage on British and Canadian Vz. My British boys could never get their tails physically much past the horizontal - you'd have to snap them to get them elevated to the altitudes I see in Canada Shocked

My Canadian-bred female has carried her tail very high since a puppy and as I'm showing her, I can see that most handlers show the Vz with their tails pulled up very high. This is totally possible on my Canadian girl, but would be impossible on my British boy. And I don't like the silhouette it creates, which isn't the sleek arrow-like picture I'm used to seeing.

Interestingly, my youngest female V is a Canadian/British breeding and she too can hold her tail very high, so the high tail position was not brought down by my British dog Confused

I suspect that this very high tail is something that is bred for in N. America, but up until now the Vz crowd have always blamed it on "bad handling" whenever I've queried it! Yet to me there must be a huge difference in the rear-end assembly of my British and Canadian dogs.

So can any of the US pointer people confirm that US Vizslas are preferred with a high tail? Would they be expected to hold their heads very high on point too? I'm not imagining this I'm sure - please confirm my sanity Rolling Eyes

Marjolein

If you read the breed standard for Weims in the field, it says a Weim's typical gait is the one with it's head somewhat lower than most of the other HPR's. Although we don't really like to see this, it is in the standard. I prefer a high head btw.
I don't like the looks of a high tail set. I even think it's not good when a Weim (am strictly talking about Weims here) has such a tail set. I do think the back hand can't give as much power with it's tail in a position like this.
One of the best judges in Holland commented on that, on a FT this weekend. There was a dog, who had it's full tail (we don't dock in Holland) and he said that the dog was bred by a responsible breeder. This dog had a fantastic tail set (4 o'clock-ish) and therefor he could make speed in the field. He didn't need his tail to manouvre through the field because his back hand could do all that. And that because a good tail set.....

MC

To me a dog points like a dog points.

Why muck about with a dog on point, you only risk losing the intensity.

A stylish point is beautiful to see, but it is down the list of necessity for our HPR's.

To see a dog standing all four feet on the ground, head up and tail right up does nothing for me.
To see a dog fixated on game, tense, and ideally a foreleg raised - now that is style!

For our HPR's to have a tail set on like a terrier means a change in structure. To prove my point (ha,ha) get your dogs tail and see if you can get it to stand straight up at 12 0'clock. You will wrench the poor animals bum hole off.

Shocked

Mike

Welcome to the forum BTW MC

Rhimad

Very well said Razz

kninebirddog

A dog who holds his tail higher Generally has a bit longer muscle in the back of the leg Thus enabling him to get a bit more stride in his run indicating more muscle in the hind end. ...This also helping show the intensity Plus it is nice in some of this tall grass and brush country to have the high tail set sometimes it is all you can see of your dog....This is what a bunch of old timers explained to me some years ago...
In many of our trials here in America if the dog isn't holding his tail up as high as the body will allow which many breeds is about the 10 to 12 o clock position and staunch it is considered to be lax

and as for GWP we have a good handful in National Shoot to Retrieve which are doing very well and we even ahve some which come to the Pheasant Preserve in Arizona which also do very well by the American standards

Prairie Hunter

MC,

What is wrong with having both style and intensity in a dog? I believe that is what most serious breeders in the US are looking to accomplish. If you look at the pictures Higgins posted of his dogs, they look pretty tense and fixated on game to me. I guess, what constitutes “style” is a matter of personal preference. Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

Now, I don’t expect to see GSPs, GWPs, and the other versatile breeds pointing with high heads and 12 o’clock tails like an English Pointer, but I do like a dog that points with its tail at 10 – 11 o’clock.

grace

Do the US Bred English Pointers have a lot of Fox Hound in there breeding ?.... its just seeing the photos with their unright tails I thought that they might have....

Prairie Hunter

Grace,

From what I understand, it is strictly the result of selective breeding. Since this was the style preferred by dog owners and field trailers in the US, only dogs with high tail sets were bred until the 12 o’clock tail position they wanted was achieved. Some breeders even breed for straight tails (no curve). If you noticed the tails on the dogs in Higgins’ pictures, you will notice how straight they are. Higgins noted these dogs are examples of English Pointers out of “Elhew” lines. Elhew English Pointers are probably the most dominate bloodline in the US. Elhew pointers set the standard everyone else is shooting for.

Make no mistake, these dogs are not all style and no substance. They are known for their drive, intensity, and stamina. They are beautiful to watch in the field.

kninebirddog

Elhew pointers Miller chief is also another line of prominant pointers there are many ...Though I myself am not a pointer fan I do have to say the picture of Higgins Pointers are proud and very intense looking which many people strive for that excellence in their pointers here in the states..nice build and well muscled and a nice high and proud tail set.

many people over here associate low tail sets with lack of desire and intensity

Higgins

This is a photo of another one of our english pointers. This dogs mother is an Elhew english pointer here in the states and the father, an imported english pointer. Notice the tail set. Much more typical of European dogs. Also the shape of the head. This pup was 6 months old when the photo was taken.

Brad Higgins
www.gundogwhisperer.com

Prairie Hunter

Higgins,

It is interesting to see how much influence breeding to the imported dog had on the offsprings' tail set.

MC

Who cares. There is much more important stuff than a tail stuck up in the
air!

Style, like I said dog intensly pointing, fixated on the bird, taking your breath away. My favourite to see is head up, front leg up and slope of the back - but I also like the crouch with neck right out and elbow up the side, but I don't care it thrills me any point. I don't care if they glance to see if I am coming along either, I like that too. "hurry up it's going to fly"

Getting what you shoot back is pretty jolly important don't you think? More important than style on point? It may not have the breath stopping thrill but it is what hunting's about.

Prairie Hunter

MC,

Obviously a high tail on point is important to the majority of breeders and owners in the US because they are breeding. They also breed for intensity, retrieve, endurance, and the other qualities that make a good dog. You don’t have to sacrifice style to get performance. There are a lot of breeders trying to breed for the total package. However, I guess style is a matter of personal preference, and what is important to one person is not necessarily important to another.

MC

Some of us breed for nice hunting companions that give us an enjoyable day out ahunting. And we like to retain all the dual characteristics of our breeds rather than focus on one or two "points" Very Happy

Prairie Hunter

MC,

I am glad to hear you are breeding for good hunting dogs in NZ. Now, if you can just get them to hold their tails up, you'll have pretty much the same dogs we have here. Laughing

Mike

Landlord

My boy often does the front point on feather and back foot point on fur though sometimes does the front foot for fur as well. However, yesterday he did both front and back at the same time Shocked

(opposite legs) I wish I had my camera it was like a position from my pilates class!! Wink

Prairie Hunter

Landlord,

I would have liked to have seen that point. It must have been a pretty delicate balancing act. I guess it serves to remind us what great athletes they really are.

Other than which foot your dogs holds up on point, do you notice any other difference between his point on fur vs. feather? I mainly focus on hunting birds with my dogs, but I can always tell, by the style of their point, if they are pointing fur.

MC

Landlord

His head carriage is higher for feather and also when he is on fur, his whole body movement is different when he is coming onto point plus his ears go flat to his head and move down (like they are being pulled downwards!)

Marjolein

When mine are on point on hare, they usually wag the tip of the tail in a very excited way. Their point of feathered game is stylish and there is no movement whatsoever. I see them same difference in head carriage as Landlord noticed.

MC

Ears back and down for fur?

I hadn't noticed that, I must watch for it.

Thanks

DesO'Neile

I really don't worry that much about the tail position. Maybe I should? I have a strong Continental bloodline in my Pointers and that tends to come out sometimes in a tail below three o'clock.
I am intrigued by the discussion about the tail carriage of US X UK working pointers. I understand that each type will TEND to produce either a low or high tail position but I have seen a few US training videos and surely if every time a dog pointed you raised his tail it would eventually be 12 o’clock irrespective of lineage?

P.S. On a moor tail position means little, while shooting pheasants in Irish bogs, tail position could mean a lot.

MC

Des, could you get your Pointers tail straight up in the air? Not curving up but straight up high noon?

DesO'Neile

I wouldn't want to but as I said I have seen the way the American trainers, well some of then at any rate, Bob Whele for example, stroke the dogs tail when it points in training and I find it hard to believe that an Anerican X English Bred pointer, treated the same way wouldn't adopt the 12 o'clock tail.

Prairie Hunter

Des,

I think it has more to do with breeding than with "styling them up" by stroking their tails when they are on point. I have seen trainers do the same with GSP pups. The tail will stay up while it is being stroked, but usually, the next time they go on point, the tail is right back in the same position. What I have found in GSPs is the more experience and confidence they have, the higher the tail gets.

All of my dogs started pointing with their tails almost straight out. I would try to style them up to get them to hold their tails higher, but it didn't seem to matter. However, the more birds I exposed them to, and shot over them, the more intense they got on point, and the higher their tails got. Eventually, they ended up with their tails at about 10:30 - 11:00 o'colck while on point. Now, I don't do any stroking of the tails, and my dogs still end up with tails held at about 10:30 - 11:00 o'click. So, that is the reason I don't think stroking the tail matters, at least in GSPs.

I do know you can breed for the trait in by only breeding dogs with a high tail set. The same goes for EPs with straight tails.