johnhod
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Pricked birdsApologies if this has already been covered but I was asked twice today, while beating to send Moss to look for runners (we were short of pickers up). Both times he found them without too much trouble but went on point, rather than going straight in for the retrieve. The birds were tucked up in cover on both occassions, so should he have gone straight in or was he right to point them? If he should have gone in will this come with experience or is it something he can be taught?
The birds were obviously pricked but were strong runners in both cases.
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sako75
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Jon , This is very common (in my experience of them) and I am not sure whether the dog is expected to differentuate between a runner and a healthy bird. I simply send the dog in and encourage the retrieve , a healthy bird will flush where as a prickd bird will run and can be retrieved at once.
Not sure what is expected in a trial but personally my dog usually points hard hit runners that have tucked in , this does not bother me - maybe it should ??
Barry.
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weima
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In a trial a dog should not point wounded game. An experienced dog should be able to tell the difference between wounded & a healthy bird but an inexperienced dog can only work this out on his own.
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windem bang
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The dog must pick a wounded bird not point it. Beginner dogs tend to point them but this changes as the dog gains in experience.
Bill T.
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Claire
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I watched a dog be given a placing at a trial after I had just watched it point a pricked bird 
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BritAnnie
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Ah but did the Judges see it 
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weima
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If it's the same trial I was at then yes the judges did most certainly see it 
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windem bang
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Did the judges then insist that the handler, from where he/she stood command the dog to retrieve it ? Did the dog retrieve it ?
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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and was it a novice trial?
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weima
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| windem bang wrote: | Did the judges then insist that the handler, from where he/she stood command the dog to retrieve it ? Did the dog retrieve it ?
Bill T. |
The dog was sent into a field whereby it hunted up a hedgerow. The handler was still by the gateway but then proceeded to walk towards the dog as the dog was going away from the bird. The dog turned round now going into wind & came to just before the corner where she went on point. The handler then told the dog to fetch it a few times before the dog actually went in for the retrieve. At the end of the day the dog won a 3rd place 
Yes Annie, it was a novice trial.
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sako75
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Had the dog marked the bird or was it a blind ?? Was this bird pointed and flushed by the same dog ?? Just interested to know 
Barry.
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weima
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| sako75 wrote: | Had the dog marked the bird or was it a blind ?? Was this bird pointed and flushed by the same dog ?? Just interested to know
Barry. |
It would have been a blind & it was pointed & retrieved by the same dog.
It is still a fault to point a wounded bird
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sako75
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Claire , Surely if the dog pointed and flushed this bird then it must have marked the fall unless the bird fell out of sight ??
If it was a blind retrieve then how on earth is the dog meant to differentuate between a wounded bird and a healthy bird ? Does it come down to smell of cordite  ???
Sorry for all the questions but I find this an interesting topic as Millie will often still point runners if they have tucked in.
Barry
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weima
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| sako75 wrote: | Claire , Surely if the dog pointed and flushed this bird then it must have marked the fall unless the bird fell out of sight ??
If it was a blind retrieve then how on earth is the dog meant to differentuate between a wounded bird and a healthy bird ? Does it come down to smell of cordite ???
Sorry for all the questions but I find this an interesting topic as Millie will often still point runners if they have tucked in.
Barry |
The dog was sent for a RETRIEVE ie it was set up & told to fetch, the bird was directly in front of the dog, about 30ft in front. It hunted up & down a hedge & with a lot of encouragement managed to get in the right area. It POINTED the wounded bird & was heavily encouraged to fetch it, to which it did.
I'm not sure what your point is about a blind retrieve & a wounded bird? A dog should be able to differentiate between wounded & non wounded game. Experience!
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BritAnnie
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So what you are saying, Claire, is that until a dog can differentiate it shouldn't be entered into a trial - not even a novice one? And that it shouldn't have been awarded a place in that trial. Is that right? I think I can see what Barry is getting at - if Millie still sometimes points wounded game before retrieving he maybe shouldn't enter her? Is that what you mean Barry?
BA
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sako75
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Claire / Annie ,
What I am getting at is , if the dog was set up for a blind retrieve I don't understand how it could be a true blind retrieve if the same dog pointed and flushed the bird ?? The dog would obviously have seen the bird fall unless I am missing something ??
Annie I know my dog should not point wounded game and she does not if she marks the fall but if she is sent and the bird has run for cover she will often point Just experience I think or lack of it as the case may be !! 
Claire , I am not trying to make a point I am just interested in the scenario that you have pointed out. What I don't get is that you say the bird was pointed , flushed and then the dog was set up for the blind retrieve. How was it a blind when the same dog had flushed the bird and presumably marked the fall ?? Please excuse my "thickness" - I am a bit DIM really
Barry.
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weima
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TBH Annie, in my experience it is not often that a pricked bird would be left for any length of time without having a dog onto it straight away. Most birds do tend to be shot dead but there are always the unlucky ones.
The dog IMO shouldn't have had a place in te trial because she pointed the wounded bird. A COM at the most but that is my opinion.
Barry, the dog had hunted, pointed & flushed this bird. The bird went over the guns out of sight of the dog. A gun shot it, but only pricked it. The bird landed in a field hedgerow, a completely different area to where the dog had found the bird. The dog was set up to retrieve this same bird. After the dog had winded the bird it pointed the SAME bird AGAIN. It was impossible for the dog to mark the fall of the bird hence why a blind retrieve took place.
Are you following 
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josie
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It's possible for a dog not to see where a bird falls, even though it was shot over it. The dog might just not mark the bird, it might have its back to it etc.
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BritAnnie
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I think I can see why there was a placing though  It would seem that the dog had done well otherwise and obviously it had done the HP bit, and was perhaps confused that the bird had dropped in a totally different area. So when it was asked and set up for a retrieve it may have thought the bird it scented was a different one from the one it had pointed earlier that had been shot. Certainly a more experienced dog would have realised the bird it was being sent for was pricked, but as you have all said it's down to experience and in a Novice Trial perhaps it's previous work had compensated for this inexperience
BA
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sako75
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I am really confused now !!! NAH - Only joking , that explains it and you are right the dog was wrong to point the bird.
I guess the point that I was trying to make was that say the dog was sent for the runner (blind) and there happened to be another perfectly healthy bird sitting tight in close proximity - how does the dog tell the difference between a wounded bird and a healthy bird ?? I know it comes down to experience but there must be a certain scent or something that tells the dog that the bird is indeed wounded ??
Any thoughts ??
Barry.
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BritAnnie
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Blood 
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sako75
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There is not always blood on wounded birds Annie but you may be right and I am having another "THICKO" moment !!!
Barry.
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BritAnnie
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The blood might not always be visible - but maybe you mean if a wing is clipped there might not be blood? Don't know ANYTHING about birds etc but woudl ther be some other fluid escapign which might change the scent - or maybe just the fear theromones?
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BritAnnie
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I've just thought, this is Tuesday - are you supposed to be working?
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weima
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| BritAnnie wrote: | | I've just thought, this is Tuesday - are you supposed to be working? |
Of course he is
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BritAnnie
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So am I supposed to be working I have to get the Club books to the Auditor by the end of the week and I can't get the flippin things to balance - I think I've fiddled around with the accruals so much I've lost my way - distraction keeps flashing up in front of me it the form of this damned forum
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sako75
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I am supposed to be working but there aint much doing at the moment. I may have to take a second job soon as Christine has just found out that her job is on the line - without her income we will struggle and our lifestyles will change for the worse - no rangerover , no pheasants  , BOOOOHOOOOO ...........Not a good start to 2008 !!!!
Barry.
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BritAnnie
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What does she do?
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sako75
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She is a senior medical sales rep - selling drugs (legally) to GP's and surgeons. The companies latest drug launch has failed and this means job cuts throughout Europe and she may be one of them. I will find out today as she is at a meeting in Glasgow to find out everyones fates.
This will be a real blow as she will lose a substantial salary , BMW , trips around the globe , BUPA etc etc - I think our lives are about to change...............
Barry.
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BritAnnie
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Maybe not. They keep the good ones usually - and the younger ones too.
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windem bang
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The dog should not have pointed a wounded bird, it picked the bird from the point only after being given a direct command or two by the handler.
If nobody could see what was happening, e.g. the bird had fell into thick woodland, the dog would have been on its own. A direct extra retrieve command would not have been possible.
I have a lot of sympathy for a dog that does this, some are more inclined to than others, experience usually brings at least a partial cure to the problem. I think in a Novice trial I would give the dog a little leeway.
You have seen a version of this happening on film Barry. In the 2nd video I loaned you my G.S.P., Dirk is out on his first rabbit hunt, he points a rabbit and flushes it on command. The gamekeeper shoots it but only wounds it, Dirk eventually follows a line and then points again up against a wire fence. I begin to walk to him not knowing if this is the same rabbit or an unshot one. Before I get to him and without me telling him to , he breaks point and comes up holding a live rabbit. I had to examine the rabbit to discover whether he'd pointed on a wounded rabbit or pegged an unshot one. Dirk was correct to break his point that rabbit was the wounded one, he'd made a mistake by pointing it as wounded game but he corrected his mistake with no help or interference from me. The dog was gaining in experience.
I think it is necessary for a dog to learn this for itself. Don't make a dog come to rely on an extra command from you.
Bill T.
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Bareve
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In theory they shouldn't point shot/injured birds however I think from what has been described and the fact that it was a novice trial and the dog "did" retrieve then I think the award was justified. The fact that the bird was shot and fell and subsequently ran out of sight of the dog he/she wasn't then to know immediately that the bird he came upto was the shot bird. He needed to access the situation which would have been "found bird" - " must point - not allowed to chase or fetch live birds" - "told to retrieve but still not sure if I'm doing right" and then you have to hope that they pick up the blood scent and realises that this one can be picked.
The other interesting point is the point..... How many people can get their dogs to flush from a distance? This dog probably locked up on point and is normally told to flush with the handler close so when the handler is standing back it's another scenario that the dog needs to gain experience in and respond accordingly.
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windem bang
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Flushing from a distance is something I make a point of teaching or at least trying to teach. Before I got my first H.P.R. I went out on training sessions with Tom Brechney. I wanted to know how the H.P.R.'s worked and he wanted to learn a bit more about the retrieving side of things so his G.S.P.'s and my labs went with us.
During one session Toms' bitch went on point 50 -60 yards away, Tom had her go in and flush from that distance. When I asked why he just said it could be useful sometimes.
Eventually I got to the championships with my Brittany and when a bird was shot and landed well out in front in an area of very high rough grass and reed stalks she was sent for it. All went quiet about 40 yards in front of me but I couldn't see her in that cover. One of the judges who was near the top of an embankment called down that she was on point. I knew it couldn't be the shot bird that close in , she was pointing a fresh bird. The judges instructions were to send her into flush from where I was. Easier said than done - she had been a sticky little sod when she was younger ! My training paid off and she went in on command, (well.....2nd or 3rd command ) and flushed a hen pheasant.
The gun missed it I'm glad to say and she was then required to go out and fetch the original bird. It was a close shave for me !!! Nearly an early bath !
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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A question for you Bill - why didn't you go for the FT CH status - she was good enough.
BA
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windem bang
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A number of reasons Annie, I'd like to have a field trial champion but I never go all out for it. As Louise Petrie Hay once put into print - I lack in competitive spirit ! I think she wrote truly. I've now had 4 dogs that qualified for the championships 2 labs, 1 Brittany and 1 G.S.P.
With the labs that takes a bit of doing, with the H.P.R.'s it is an easier target to reach.
In order to attend trials I had to get days of my work, that was very difficult. I would look at what winter week had the most trials and ask for that week for my winter week holiday. If I got that week then I entered the trials but there is no guarantee of getting a run. I could have a weeks holiday with no trial to go to! That was uncommon with H.P.R. trials but very common in lab trials where the entry could be well over 100 hopefuls !!!
I had 2 labs that had both won a two day , 24 dog Open Qualifying Stake each. I got pissed off entering trials and being something like 72nd reserve !!!
In addition to these problems I have never had money, travelling to trials, overnight stays etc. is expensive and I was becoming disenchanted with H.P.R. trials anyway, the playing field was sometimes just a bit too uneven for my liking and along with a couple of other handlers at about the same time I decided to give trials a miss. Trialing is just too expensive for me take part in if I don't think the playing field is even.
By chance the young dog I was then training (Bucks uncle) was to become the best H.P.R. I've had. He was never trialled, I was in the huff! He had everything going for him, I'd bred him myself and he ran like stink was very easily handled, never chased a rabbit or a hare in his life and was a very good and soft mouthed retriever. He was so easy, he was almost boring !!! Because of this I would rather have Vicky, my first Brittany back now than him. She was many things - but could never be described as boring !!!!
Bill T.
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BritAnnie
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| Quote: | She was many things - but could never be described as boring !!!!
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I don't think I know any boring Brittanys
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