| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Lisa |
Ready to be Steady!We have been trying to work on this at the moment and at close range I can control his steadiness. He is great with the guinea pigs when we let them loose and the chinchilla can climb all over him and he will not budge. But this isn't as realistic as I want it to be!Long range he will chase I can tell him 'steady' from a distance and he will listen but if something goes up and surprises him he will chase. I have tried putting him on a long line but this proves difficult when we are practising hunting as he cannot range as far but then I have the problem of him coming across something! Basically I feel we have hit a no-win situation and we need help! All advice very welcome!! 
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| BenB |
An idea might be to get a couple of birds off the local keeper and plant these. then use the long line to hunt up to them. Reinforce the sit when you trigger them to fly. | ||
| windem bang |
If your dog chases don't shout steady at him. Use the stop whistle, that's what it's there for. If he doesn't stop to the whistle then he isn't trained to the stop whistle. Work on that then if he still does not stop you can correct him for disobeying the whistle rather than correct him for chasing game. If you haven't got the stop whistle off pat then you have got nothing.
Have a nice day ! 
Bill T. |
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| Lisa |
I don't shout steady when he chases, I will blast the whistle and he will stop. I say steady when he is charging the field and then to slow him down if he spots something and is getting ready to run.
After reading this back I have seen that I don't need to say steady at all do I?!   I think I do this out of panic and should just learn to trust him. I just don't like giving him a chance to ignore the whistle.
Ben, I don't know anyone who can give me some birds  I did think that it would be a better way of teaching him though. How about I get hold of something easier like quails or something?
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| greylag |
feral pigeons are ok to lisa.i think you said your husband is a fisherman,use his landing net to catch them around town early in the morning. i do this in rugby every few months. i get the odd strange look but if your out early its fairly quiet on a sunday.i dont mind people looking at me like im mad
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| Lisa |
Thank you greylag! Actually, there's a place near me thats full of ferals and they are so stupid you can just pick them up! and like you, I don't mind looking the mad person every now and again!!
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| DesO'Neile |
http://glencuanpointers.wordpress.com/2003/01/31/the-drop/
There may be something of use in here. Des. |
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| sinan |
I agree with this. Forget to make the dog steady to the game. Making the dog stop with whistle is short and definite solution. After the dog will be steady to the game anyway. But how will you make your dog to stop with whistle in every distraction and distance? It is up to your training skill and your patient. If your dog even knows the stop whistle go to back of his training. This is the rule works all the time. If your dog fails, don’t correct him, go back to his first, second or third levels of training where he failed. You don’t need to force your dog or reward with treats for distance works. You don’t need treats, clicker,long ropes etc. You just need reinforce him. Some people ask how will I reinforce my dog from distance and how will I click and treat from the distance? You will reinforce him with his another behaviors like recall, or fetch etc.. If your dog crazy about balls you are very lucky. Take the all balls out of his sight in home and make your dog to miss his balls for a couple of day and after don’t give the ball to him all day long. Only let him play with the ball in training sessions. This makes the balls strong reinforcer. Firstly work from short distance in the area without or low distractions. - Give stop whistle cue and make your dog to stop. After, recall him and give the treat what he likes too much. The distance could be 3-4 meters. Keep going to work like this. First make the dog down with stop whistle and after call him to give treat. And after put more distance between you and the dog. The dog is not getting the treat with first behavior (down with stop whistle). He has to wait to do second behavior (recall) to get the treat. The dog must understand “if I don’t stop and down with whistle my owner will not call me and I will not get my treat. I will only be able to get the treat if I make my owner give me to recall cue. If I want to make my owner give recall cue I must stop and down upon his stop whistle” Of course the dog can’t think like this but I hope you understand what I am meaning. You gradually put more distance. If the dog fails then go back to short distance and after again gradually put more distance. When you succeed with stop and recall for enough distance you can change the recall behavior with other one such as chase and fetch. Begin from short distance again. Make your dog stop with whistle and after throw the ball and after give your fetch cue and treat him when he fetches the ball to you. If he doesn’t wait until your fetch cue and go for the ball immediately leash and tether him for 30 seconds. After try again and put more distance when your dog succeeds. The aim is the dog will be conditioned that he gets treats or do what he loves after obeying stop whistle. Usually dogs like to run after balls or frisbees. Dog doesn’t like down against stop whistle as much as chase and fetch the ball. The rule is always put more desirable behavior after less desirable behavior as reinforcement. If you don’t let your dog to run after ball or fresbee without stopping him with stop whistle, he will wait for your stop whistle to run after thrown balls or fresbees. In this case you don’t need to treat to stop behavior. When you succeed all of these you should move to field and work with live birds. Usually most of the dogs stop with whistle if successfully finished these stages. If not you must work with live birds. Best reinforcer is their game for gundogs. Some people use punishment (e-collars) to make them steady. But reinforcement is always better than punishment and works better. |
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| munstyman |
 You've answered your own question Lisa 
I certainly never believe any dog handler that says their charge is 100% on the stop whistle. There will always be an unexpected event that keeps the dog moving despite the `STOP'. Providing you don't set your standards too low , and always correct any breach, you can stop waiting for it to happen and relax abit more behind your dog, many dogs will surprise their handlers just how good they are once they are trusted:wink:
Sometimes a dog needs to break the rules in order to understand that a rule exists, others continually push the boundaries to test your resolve, isn't that what makes training them fun 
Peter |
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| Lisa |
Thanks for that Peter! Yes, I often end up answering myself!!
I have been working with his stop much more and all is ok, but like you said, there will be a time when the stop will not be enough and this is the instance I worry about. But, I suppose I will have to learn to 'cross that bridge' and learn to have more confidence in myself and in Blu!!
Just to add, in reinforcing his stop I have been randomly throwing his dummy when he cannot see me throw it over his head and then as he sees it land I blast the whistle for him to stop (which he does, everytime). Am I OK doing this? If so, shall I move on to something a little more exciting, say a real bird like Ben suggests? |
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| windem bang |
Lisa - I suggest that once your dog will make a definite stop after seeing a dummy in the air you should move on to making the dummy itself the command to sit - not the whistle.
I think you are off to a head start if you can make the game itself the command to stop/sit following a flush or a bird being shot. The whistle can then be reserved for real emergencies. Bill T. |
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| Lisa |
Thank you Bill, can I just ask, to teach him to do this do I just tell him sit to start with until he will just sit when the dummy falls? | ||
| windem bang |
Yes, use the stop ,whistle your voice, hand signals - everything you've got to start with until your dog does sit to those things when it flushes a bird or a rabbit. Then begin ommitting the comands and correct your dog from time to time as the bird flies off - let the bird definetly have flushed first or you could make your dog "sticky" or even cause it to blink game.
Your dog, if this is done consistently and with some regularity, will begin to give you "favourable anticipation " it will see the bird fly and expect the sit command to follow so it will sit before the command is given. In a shooting or a trial situation this gives you a dog that doesn't need to be handled to keep it steady - the game itself becomes the dogs command to sit. Bill T. |
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| windem bang |
Sorry, meant to say, start with dummies in the air as the dog hunts near to you, tthen use frisbees or anything else really exciting to a dog and finally game.
Bill T. |
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| Lisa |
Thanks Bill, I tried this with his ball, he is mad for the ball and I really didn't think I had a hope in hell sitting him while the ball was in mid air!  but I tried it, and to my surprise he blooming did it!! I did it a few times and like you said, when I threw it he began to sit before I said it. Yey! Gosh, if he can do it with his ball (gets more excited with this than game! ) he can do it with anything!!
Thanks again!
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| windem bang |
Lisa, here's something else for you to try. Take a tennis ball, cut a little half inch slice in it. Tie something like a screw or a part of an old pencil onto one end of an old shoelace or any bit of string. Now at about 1 inch (no more than that ) from the screw, tie on a dozen or so long feathers from a pheasants tail - tie them very tightly, if they fan out a bit, that's even better.
Insert the screw completely inside the little slot made in the ball . Now take it with you in your dummy bag and throw it whenever the dog is in a position to see it in air but cannot see you throw it. The long trailing feathers make this enticing to a dog - they also greatly aid marking if you send your dog to fetch it. Add gravel or similar through the slot in the ball if you want it to go further. I have several of these - I call them "teasers" Bill T. |
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| Lisa |
I will give it a go Bill afterall, I have plenty of tennis balls! Thanks again!
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| Lisa |
I took Blu out today, not with his tennis ball pheasant but a Dokken Pheasant. I bought one last week and he really loves this!
We were going really well and he was getting to the point when hunting that when I threw the pheasant he would sit on his own. While repeating this, from the side of a bush a rabbit decided to run across the small area Blu was hunting! It ran half way across while Blu was on the other side of the field and yes, he saw it Temptation was just too great and he ran  He very nearly caught it until I threw his shaky bottle at the floor in front of him as I was too far away and surprisingly, that was enough for him to know he was in the wrong and he sat.
I could not believe it! After we were going so well with things that goes and happens! But I suppose that is what it's all about! 
I gave him what for and then sat him in the middle of the field for a while and by the look on his face he was sorry!!
After this, he was very hot to hunt, so I decided to carry on but this time I started to throw a dummy scooting along the ground. As he noticed it and went to chase I got him to sit, which he did. I did a few more of these and then we finished. I suppose as Peter said he needs to chase to learn that he can't! We will see what happens tomorrow!
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| johnhod |
I think you should still be happy with the progress made on dropping to to the thrown dummy. Blu has learned not to chase something when it is in the air. This needs to be expanded now to take in the fact that ground game (low dummys or kicked tennis balls) is included in the rule. | ||