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juliemunday

recall help desperately needed

Hi everyone. I have a 2 year old english pointer called Monty who came from the RSPCA just under a year ago. He is a family pet, and not trained for working. My problem is that wherever we walk there are pheasants in the fields and if he's off his lead, it's as if a switch is flicked and he's gone. So far everything we've tried has failed on recall, it'll work if you can get his attention but not otherwise. I'm at the stage now where I daren't let him off an extendable lead as roads are just an object in his path in pursuit of his goal. He just comes back when he's exhausted(usually 2 hours or so)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME
countrygirl

Hi

It may be worth trying a remote control spray collar if you can get hold of one.

Caz
guy

At its simplest you need to teach the 'drop'.  there is a good description on Des O'Neill's site - http://glencuanpointers.wordpress.com/the-glencuan-way/

Once you have that in place the recall is easier.

http://www.adviegundogs.co.uk/adviegundogs.co.uk/training.htm is also worth a read.
lou

yup, a 'drop' or 'stop' is essential. Do you use a whistle? you should start straight away. the 'stop' command is my saviour since sometimes when I know my dog won't come back I tell her to stop where she is instead Very Happy its suprisingly effective! Once you have it nailed you will be able to remotely stop him, stop him mid chase etc.......

The other thing that may help is to stick a long line on him while you are re-training. Anything to stop him practicing the undesirable behaviour. The more he can practice being good the better off you will be. My dog foolishly thought that I had extra powers over her when I had a long line on her - luckily for me! It enabled her to have a good run (avoid woodland!) whilst we practiced recall.

If at all possible try to avoid the most exciting areas whilst you are in the initial stages of re-training - give yourself a chance!

It wont happen overnight - if you try the long line it might be trailing behind him for several months before you shorten it/remove it.

My dog isn't perfect but I had a terrible time when i first got her - a mixture of me being a bit naive and her doing what GWPs do! but we now have quite a good understanding.

good luck
Louise
Mike

This is taken from another forum but I am sure Jeff won't mind:

Quote:
Jeff's 'hot chicken' technique

If you are going to give it a food treat don't mess about with little bits make it worthwile.

Get a couple of hot chickens (this is a hot tip after all), from the local supermarket, strip all the meat of the bones and put the whole lot into a bag.

Go out with your dog let it offthe lead for a run, recall it, and when it gets close throw a bloody great handful of hot chicken in front of your feet. When its eaten it let it go again and then repeat the exercise.

Two chickens is about four recalls, on the last one, put the lead up your arm (assuming you have a rope slip lead) and when she returns hold some chicken in your hand and as she takes it just slip the lead over her head, feed her a few bit of chicken while she is on the lead, tell her she's a good girl and trot off for a short walk before taking her back home.

Save a small amount of the chicken to give her when she gets in the car.

Repeat after a couple of days gradually reducing the amount of chicken, and replacing it intermittently with praise.

As has been said, the recall is vitally important and you need to get over a particular barrier, so you need to have something so attractive she will willingly cross the barrier to get it.

This is also a good opportunity to introduce a very reliable recall whistle


Jeff
juliemunday

Mike wrote:
This is taken from another forum but I am sure Jeff won't mind:

Quote:
Jeff's 'hot chicken' technique

If you are going to give it a food treat don't mess about with little bits make it worthwile.

Get a couple of hot chickens (this is a hot tip after all), from the local supermarket, strip all the meat of the bones and put the whole lot into a bag.

Go out with your dog let it offthe lead for a run, recall it, and when it gets close throw a bloody great handful of hot chicken in front of your feet. When its eaten it let it go again and then repeat the exercise.

Two chickens is about four recalls, on the last one, put the lead up your arm (assuming you have a rope slip lead) and when she returns hold some chicken in your hand and as she takes it just slip the lead over her head, feed her a few bit of chicken while she is on the lead, tell her she's a good girl and trot off for a short walk before taking her back home.

Save a small amount of the chicken to give her when she gets in the car.

Repeat after a couple of days gradually reducing the amount of chicken, and replacing it intermittently with praise.

As has been said, the recall is vitally important and you need to get over a particular barrier, so you need to have something so attractive she will willingly cross the barrier to get it.

This is also a good opportunity to introduce a very reliable recall whistle


Jeff
Thanks everyone. He does respond to a whistle but I'm not altogether sure what commands mean. Unfortunately he has obviously been partly whistle trained before he was booted out and that makes the training more difficult as I don't think either of us (me + monty) are really sure what the other is asking.

Any more help greatly received
lou

hi there

Dont get yourself hung up on what may have gone on before. It makes no difference whether you decide to use 1,2,3,4 pips on your whislte so long as it is different to the number of pips that he is used to ignoring. It makes no difference if you pip your whistle differently to your neighbour so long as you are consistent. You need to retrain your recall so start from scratch from today.

as an example you could use 3 pips to say 'stop what you are doing and come back now' (give yourself a chance though and dont expect him to know what you want without first practicing round the house, in your garden etc....) and you could use a low longish pip to mean 'stop what you are doing, sit down and stay where you are'

he will only know what these mean if you teach him. he isnt pre-programmed to know what a whistle means.

good luck
Louise
countrygirl

It may be worth trying ti find out if there are any gundog training classes near you, they would help both of you to understand what each other wants. Ring the organiser and explain your situation and any traininer worth ther sorts would help you out,

We used to have an english pointer come to our hpr classes not all that goes on will be relevent to what you want to do with your dog but it would be a good experiance for both of you.

Caz
juliemunday

recall advice needed

Hi again.

Thanks for all the advice. I have one question. How the heck do I stop Monty going into a trance once he picks up pheasant smells. He's as good as gold in the field outside. He'll come on command (whistle and call) he'll sit, lay down, anything really. Once he gets that scent, I have a completely different dog, how do I get him back if he clears off , I doubt he'd smell even spicy chicken he's so focused on his goal. I think there must be two identical dogs!

Would it make a difference if he'd had initial training to be a working dog?

We got him from the RSPCA in Maidenhead, he'd been found wandering the streets in a posh area with a hole through one ear that was badly infected. We've had him a year now, he's so lovable but I've acquired  Evil or Very Mad Jekyl and Hide  Smile

I'm keeping him on an extendable lead for now , but how can I get and keep his attention when he seems hypnotised by "parfum de pheasant".

Any help and advise very,very,very gratefully received. Thankyou

Julie
guy

You have to get that 'stop' whistle sorted out.

i wonder if a visit to a game farm to take teh edge off might work (mind you i am doubtful)  Likewise pheasant scent out of a bottle.

i believe the stop is the answer.  

But lets look at the bigger picture - a dog with desire and drive is easier in the long run than one who has little idea what it is all about.
lou

yeah, the 'stop' will be your saviour - have you started yet?

The way I started was by walking along a pavement with my dog on lead. everytime i stopped i said 'ssssssssit' and raised my hand so she could see my palm. after several repetitions i introduced the whistle -  a lowish pip. I pipped the whistle, stopped and raised my hand. if she was slow in sitting i would help her bum to the ground since the command must be instant. you will need to do this with him next to you for several sessions - once he is reliable you can lengthen your lead, let him wander ahead and repeat. gradually increase the distance. dont forget that walking along a pavement practicing a stop is very different to walking along the edge of a field where there may be other distractions so adjust your level of training to suit the environment. honestly it works! its a magic command! I have successfully stopped my dog on rabbit, hare and deer. its the best thing i have ever learnt to teach my dog!

try and get yourself along to gundog training or even a local clicker training course might be helpful to you.

Louise
munstyman

Hi Julie,
        From what you have written I detect a couple of issues going on here, Whilst I agree the stop is essential in this situation, if only to act as a distraction and regain of focus, in order to redirect the dogs attention back to the then given recall. But there is also the issue of `respect/ authority between you and the dog, any dog that has hunting drive and has been allowed to express it unchallenged or positively directed in an early stage, as it seems yours was in his first year, is going to need a solid foundation of trust to be rebuilt in you, and communication is the key.
You say you are using an extend able lead, how are you using it? If the line is under tension of any sort then your not using it to your advantage Wink  Most `pet owners' I see using flexi leads are letting the dog dictate how much line is being fed out and thus it has the rightful interpretation by dog trainers as being a sign of a dog with no training Sad
Just like an ordinary lead, it should only be used as a control not as a substitute for training. I prefer the term `check cord' as it describes the use of `long leads' more correctly, it is effectively an emergency brake, and has the best effect on the dogs perception that no matter how far away from you it is you are ultimately still in control. ( even if we know we're not  Exclamation Laughing ).
The other area you need to focus on is working with the dog when he starts scenting, rather than fighting it. You are obviously reading the initial signs that the dog is telling you hes on scent so hunt with him and show him you understand, but keep it on your terms and at your pace ( on a line ) but let him follow through with his instincts hopefully to the `point' of a bird. If you can get to this stage this will mean your well on the way to rebuilding a partnership with the dog which was obviously beyond the abilities and understanding of his previous owners. At the end of the day the dog is not a solitary hunter, he likes being part of a team, even if sometimes they do come back with a smile on their faces after bogging off Rolling Eyes ( although it never stays on mine for very long once their back, as re-training on a lead concentrates the mind beautifully of free running dogs Wink )
Peter

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