| Archive for workinghprs.myfastforum.org Chat forum for owners of working HPR and Versatile gundog breeds. |
| Mike |
Rosettes to ruin - A terrier-mans views on the show ringThis one should appeal to WB
What I found particularly interesting were the radical changes in skull shape 
http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm |
| windem bang |
Hi Mike,  O.K. I'll take the lure 
Ding- ding- round god knows what coming up! I read this little article from end to end and found little if anything to disagree with. The author was mainly talking of terriers but the same rules apply. The old breeders chestnut I've always liked is " Through function to form - not the other way around!" The author of this little gem has given me a new one I like. " Theory always ends where reality begins." There were several comments in this article that had me nodding in agreement, such as QUOTE - " The standard for a working terrier is NOT in the ring but in the field and it is ONLY in the field that a dog can be judged worthy of being bred." And QUOTE - "Lesson one in the world of dogs is that if you put anything above breeding for utility, you will start to lose working abilities. In working dogs, utility is beauty and beauty is as beauty does." And QUOTE - " They leave behind a trail of dogs that were not systematically bred to do a job - they were bred to produce ribbons." I loved the working terrier standard given at the end of the article though personally I am far too soft to deliberately send a dog underground or to breed dogs to do this. Right Mike, you've set the trap, lets see who else jumps into it 
Bill T. |
| BritAnnie |
After that lovely big hug I got from you on Saturday, Bill, I wouldn't dare
BA ps as for you young Mike, no more B & B for you, for starting this up again  (only joking, you know you and Cath are welcome anytime )
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| windem bang |
Well done Annie, I'm proud of you, young whippersnapper trying to wind us up
Bill T. |
| Mike |
Oh dear i've been rumbled
But seriously though the changes in skull shape over 50 years was amazing, I had no idea that such large physical changes could happen so quickly. Another intersting thing was him mentioning breeders putting prospective breeding stock to ground only a couple of times to ensure they retained some workin ability, I wonder if tests like the TAN are actually enough to stop natural ability being erroded? (Anyone know roughly how many dogs get the TAN each year?) |
| Helen |
Very good! However, I think there is enough room for both. He mentioned the irish setter as one breed "ruined". There are enough working irish out there to fill the demand. If someone is looking for a "bird dog", they can find one that will do a decent days work.
There was someone at GBAS who was showing a show/working springer spaniel. He was GORGEOUS! He had a fantastic head and just the right amount of feathering and coat. He had taken him as he had done well under the judge before. Unfortunately, he didn't get anyway but he really was a stunning looking dog. Helen |
| BritAnnie |
Wish I'd seen that!
Re skull shape changing, bearing in mind that Dr Bruce Cattanach managed to get a boxer looking bitch in his first cross back after breeding to Corgi, this is actually a long time for changes to appear. As to TANs - we usually have about 30 to 35 Brittanys taking it each year and probably about 75% pass it It is a very basic test of natural ability - but only hunting and pointing are tested, and possibly recall control. Anything more requires input from mowners and that is what we have problems with, although having said that we only have about 100 dogs at a weekend and the majority of Brittanys are owned by falconers or roughshooters. BA |
| windem bang |
Hi Annie - "input from mowners?" there's plenty of them around , should be no shortage of input!
I didn't see the spaniel mentioned at the show, I did see a fair number of dogs with full length tails - are the judges in your opinion, judging as fairly as they can , given that anyone experienced enough to be a judge has been around long enough to have a natural bias towards docked dogs? Bill T. |
| BritAnnie |
Now we are on that subject again, we had a longtailed pup brought into our Breed Seminar last weekend and everyone agreed that it didn't move like a Brittany - the tail gave it a different balance. I've been saying this since I saw heaps of them in Scandinavia 2 years ago. Tails probably won't make as much difference to other gundog breeds that have the same angulation front and rear, it's just going to change the Brittany stilted gait. It is going to make things more interesting for us judges.
How about judges on here starting another thread and put up some notes when they judge longtails in previously docked breeds BA |
| Helen |
Bit random but there was a dobe with a tail at our match night. It did look really nice. The only weird thing is that when he stacked her, he held the tail straight up and it bent over the dogs back??
Helen |
| BritAnnie |
Yes, Helen, that is the problem  . Because the docked breeds haven't been bred for tails no-one knows what they will look like - my next litter will possibly be all different lengths (Belle and Allez both being natural bobs, but that gene can produce any length up to 2 digits from a full length tail.) And we have no way of telling how they will carry them. We have a few longtailed Brittanys at the moment, one carries her tail out and upwards with an inward curl on the end, another carries it like a Goldie. How on earth we will judge them I do not know
BA |
| guy |
Unfortunately without my camera - but saw a full tailled brittany with a hunter in France the other day. |
| windem bang |
I've only seen one fully tailed Brittany so far, that was almost 20 years ago. It's owner ran him in a novice grouse trial and I was one of the judges. I liked the full length tail and the dog ran very well in the trial. I didn't notice anything peculiar about his gait but then I wouldn't as long as it looked healthy and natural.
Bill T. |
| BritAnnie |
Well, as you should know by this time, Bill, the gait should be brisk, with a short stride, and with little rear extension. They shouldn't stride out and power along like setters, spaniels etc, and their rear pads shouldn't be visible on the move. Any I've seen with tails seem to wobble from side to side at the rear and don't have the typical clipped movement, and I've seen pads so they must have more extension as a result of the additional balance with the tail being there. It will be very interesting to see more long tails in the UK, particularly since we can't dock at all up here. I'm looking forward to seeing what mix of lengths I get in the litter planned in the next few months.
BA |
| windem bang |
I'm not trying to be awkward or to wind you up Annie but wouldn't more extension make the gait more fluid and therefor more economical for a dog to maintain over distance?? I know it's not the slightly choppy movement you're used to seeing but might it not be better for the dog?
Bill T. |