Sharpening up the stop whistle

Mike · Sharpening up the stop whistle

On Monday night I was shown a nice method to sharpen up (or even train from the begining) the stop whistle. I don't know if Steve Kimberley came up with this method himself or was shown it but I don't want people to think I came up with it! Very Happy

I suspect this will work better with a high prey drive dog (likes to chase things). Basically you need at least one tennis ball (I use two as i'll explain in a minute) and a clicker. Sit the dog next to you and give the dog the ball, recover the ball from the dog (this is why I need two balls, I've only ever used balls as a reward before and so Harley has no steadiness to them what so ever and for my purposes thats fine.) Fake a throw with the tennis ball and when the dog is turning to look at you with that "hey, where's the ball?" look, blow the stop whistle and click the moment his bum touches the floor. Then throw the ball for real. I then pick up the original ball and repeat (once he has got bored running about and being excited with is reward)

Now that I have a really good reward from him I have seen some collie / GSD type sits i.e. instant compliance Shocked

Which I am gobsmacked with as although he used to stop the whole sitting procedure could be quiet drawn out (up to a couple of seconds). Also training the stop whistle is now great fun for both Harley and I

So now for the questions, Harley has cottoned on to the fact that I am faking the throws and not going as far as he was, any suggestions on how to increase distance? How is the best way to wean him off the tennis balls? I know I need to make the reward random and only reward the best (i.e. quickest sits) but what would be a good plan to avoid to many mistakes, I really don't want to loose the sharpness of response I now have!

Very Happy

Allyson

I use a ball under my arm, I could never fake a throw with my dog as he is far too smart and far too fast and powerful!

My GSD is clicker trained with a ball as his reinforcement.

I am training for Schutzhund at the moment which requires lightening fast responses as attitude is everything so my dog is rewarded only for very fast sits and downs with a click and then the ball.

I am not sure why there is a need to throw the ball, my dog gets his ball dropped into his gob after the click and then outs immediately, he does not run about with it even when thrown just retrieves it immediately back to me.

He is completely ball obsessed and so to develop his self control I can now drop his ball and he has to maintain total attention during heelwork, or stay at heel in a position before he is clicked and released for the ball. His sendaways are trained with this too so that he has to leave the ball off lead and then explodes to get it on release.

If you have an instant stop at your side then I would start working on the distance and if compliance was not instant I would just stop playing the game. The game is the most important thing to my dog and without me he cannot play it Very Happy

Not sure if that helps

ps personally I would never train with a tennis ball, I only use rubber balls on a rope, much safer but each to his own.

Mike

Allyson

Why do I out him immediately?

Because I had made him such a ball junkie that he would not let go! Rolling Eyes

Trainer error!

So in order to get him to "out" with not confrontation he learned that if he outed instantly he got the chance to have the ball immediately rather than me stopping the game.

I think retention of the ball is for him the main thing but I also think that using the two hose game made me the centre of the game so that he did not need to run about with the ball as chasing after them was enough so to speak as he knew that for the game to continue he had to hurtle straight back to me.

I don't lob the ball straight in his gob at 50 metres, mad thing would probably swallow it, but I do click him at that distance for outing and then picking up and returning.

Because he DOES find the ball so rewarding his self control is so much stronger because he knows that possession of the ball is contingent on self discipline. So it is a vicious circle if you like, the behaviour is stronger because his desire for the ball is stronger and by being frustrated his addiction is raised and raised.

He is only allowed to chase the ball as an explosive release from the control work so that he just does not waste energy that could be put into the position, speed etc that I am asking for.

Mike

Further to the above last night I was training with Steve again and was asked to stop Harley whilst he was hunting to finish his run.

For the first time ever he was actually sat before he had finished moving! I couldn't believe it! Very Happy

I think he was as suprised as I was Laughing

A couple of weeks much more focused training and the use of a much higher reward has resulted in a stepwise improvement in the stop whistle, hopefully this will continue! Cool

stubournazza

Hi Allyson

Have you watched Balabanov' schutzhund videos? I have his 2 videos and find that using 'the game' really helps my Munstie to go from behaviour to reward to behaviour really quickly ensuring self control and thought along with excitement and huge rewards. He is also a bit of a ball junkie but I find he is just as hooked on the gappay tug toys. I will try to introduce whistle commands and clean pick-ups of retreive articles as well I think - just been using it for heelwork, sits, downs and waits at the moment.

Mike

Hi Tina,
I've seen the Balabanov tapes and thought they were very good (i've also got the Flinks tapes (from leerburg.com) and whilst not as advanced as the Balabanov one does have a few interesting / useful ideas). I believe tape 3 (Balabanov) is due out sometime soon?

Allyson

Yes I have watched Balabanov's tapes, I also have his advanced shutzhund book he wrote with Duet.

As I intend to compete in Schutzhund with my GSD which is an extremely high drive dog, I wanted to be able to switch him on and off immediately.

I believe that the importance of developing self control in dogs is a very underestimated concept (important for handlers too)! Wink

stubournazza

Hi Allyson
I agree totally and what surprised me was the response I got when at my first gundog training session I was 'told off' for playing with my dog as a reward because ' you don't want your dog to go running off playing as soon as it has brought you back the game'... I felt the urge to argue that if your dog did that without being released to do so first then it was a training issue but resisted Laughing

It is an area that is overlooked in all dog sports me thinks and as for the handlers well yes they lose control as well Wink

josie

Hi Tina, Are you Tina from the ezboard gundog board?

I play tuggy with Slate and have also seen the Balabanov vids. They gave me lots of great ideas for moving between high energy tuggy and asking for sits and downs inbetween. That struck me as being particularly a good exercise for gundogs - to be in a very high prey drive mode, and then have to sit quickly. Isn't that exactly what they would be doing when flushing game...? I thought it was a great tip anyway!

DesO'Neile

As a clicker sceptic may I ask a question. What is the point of the ball?
All you are proving is that the dog is " Steady To Ball" when what you really want is a dog " Steady to Flush"

Allyson

Good question, I hope I can explain.

If I want to get a behaviour I need to establish it with something that is not of very high value to the dog so that I do not introduce conflict, so for example in gundog terms no doubt birds are extremely high value and stimulating for dogs and therefore they are a) not necessarily in a position to learn a particular behavour and b) the chances of them practising inappropriate behaviour is high and c) they will get self rewarded for incorrect behaviour.

Therefore I want to get my dog steady first to something it is not particularly interested in, then, in gradual increments, I raise the value of the "temptation" so that the dog has to develop self control AFTER it has fully understand the behaviour that I require in that situation, ie it is on cue.

This is how I train my dogs to be steady to wildlife, rabbits, hares, deer, joggers, skateboarders, cyclists and, in my GSDs case, criminals running around with sleeves.

I want ALL behaviour under stimulus control so I do not want my dog always anticipating what I am going to do, hence I am very unpredictable with sequences so that the dog ALWAYS has to pay attention to what I am saying rather than making his own decisions.

Does that help?

Mike

Des,
The ball is a reward. Harley has a very high prey drive (esp. in the desire to chase) So he has been allowed (until relatively recently) to be completely unsteady to a thrown (or fired from sling) ball. Using this high value reward (in training) has enabled me to stop him mid chase on three rabbits in the last week (even though his mum was in hot pursuit) I guess the presence of the reward is largely irrelevant now as he must be bordering on being classically conditioned to the stop whistle. I am obviously aware that I can't use a tennis board as a reward at trials so I am rewarding him randomly with tennis ball (with click) or food (with click) and if it isn't perfect I just release him, to carry on.

TBH the clicker is only there to actually mark the sit as the desired response, a "good" would (in this case) serve just as well, as long as the dog had been conditioned to associate "good" with the upcoming reward.

One slightly odd thing is that at long distances he has a tendency to lie down rather than sit (this isn't rewarded).

As an aside wouldn't steadiness to a thrown ball, dummy etc. be a useful stepping stone towards "steady to flush"? Helping the dog to learn the concept of not chasing the object gets him the object?

josie

Yes, I think Martin Deeley uses thrown tennis balls to get spaniels steady to flush. After all - fast tennis ball, moving away from dog, encouraging the chase instinct - similar to fast bird, moving away, encouraging the chase..?

Tom Brechney in the HPR Masterclass DVD uses tennis balls in a catapult to improve marking ability, but that's a different use. (I tried this and nearly broke my wrist, and only succeeding in firing tennis balls back in my face. This is only because I am useless at anything requiring much coordination!)

DesO'Neile

I am with both Mike and Allyson on the progression theory but it isn't something I would do myself. To mis quote Bill Shankley ,

" The drop isn't a life and death matter, it is much more important than that".

I teach my pups to drop sometimes even before they are properly weaned. It is really easily done at that age and anything taught at an early age is easily sharpened up if for some time you concentrate on other matters. The net result is that when the pups get to game the requirement to drop isn't a big deal. I don't want to give the false impression that every find is handled correctly and that each whistle drop is executed perfectly but I can go away and reinforce the drop away from game.

I have been fastinated by the writings of an American gentleman writing under the title of Higgins who exposes his pups to lots of birds, pigeons, quail etc. and says nothing when they flush. I am not sure if it would work with a dog required to flush the bird but it has given me cause for some thought.

lagopuslagopus · stop whistle

I did the same Josie. I bought a new catapault that was supposed to be able to fire tennis balls but they still only go a few yards most of the time and the elastic really hurts when it hits your arm!! The dogs sit there in anticipation only for the ball to go 'plop'!

josie

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one Very Happy

Allyson

http://www.ourpetshop.co.uk/DogToys/Chuckit.htm

You might find the Chuckit better?

lagopuslagopus · stop whistle

Does that fit in your pocket? That was the good thing about the catapault.

Allyson

Only if you have very long ones.......................

Fits in your pocket and you cannot work it
Does not fit in your pocket but OAPs and small children can work it

Hmmmm......... Very Happy

Difficult decision Laughing

lagopuslagopus · retrieving

It would be ok to use at home but I wouldn't take it out as I don't want to be carrying things unnecessarily! so not a difficult choice really.

josie

Got a Chuckit - much better than the catapult. It kind of fits in the gamebag, but sticks out the top. So I put it in there only when I need it. Which means that most of the time I forget it - dur! Nevermind, I always carry a ball and a tuggy in there, so they do instead!

Mike

Next step up from a chuckit is one of these

Admitedly I get the odd funny look when I am out with this, but I can chuck the ball miles with little effort. Has improved marking considerably.

Allyson

And just where do you get the camo suit, balaclava etc to go with this Mike?

Very Happy

Mike

I must stop buying all these "training aids", no really they are for the dogs benefit not mine....

Mike

josie

Mike, what the hell is that? Shocked

That is, quite definitely, a GADGET!!!

What is it with men and gadgets??

That has far too many moving parts for me, I'd get in a complete mess with it and drop balls everywhere and Slate would have a party!

By the way, my Chuckit cost me £1 from £ World, so check out your £ Worlds wherever you live!

Mike

josie

Mike, you're not convincing me that I need this contraption Shocked

Bird launchers, yes. Dummy launchers, yes. Tennis ball launchers which can be worn on your arm....nope!

munstyman

Do you think you could sneek one into Wimbledon Question

Robby

The real gadged...what I came to know as a potato canon when I was in America Wink

:
http://craigger.com/potato/MVC-656W.MPG

Mike

I want one of those!! Laughing

josie

Sshhh Robby, don't get him started Shocked

ps - Isn't that actually called a bazooker?

Robby

The idea just hit me Very Happy

I don't know what it's called, I'm German not American

stubournazza

I hope that isn't literally, Robby Shocked

Hi Josie -in answer to your question of a few pages back -yes I am that Tina -but my laptop died and lost all my favourite links so am slowly building them back up and adding a few more!!

To add another aspect to ball throwing - my dog loves balls but I don't now use a chuckit or I when I do it is for very short sessions as ballying your dog can make them stressed and increase fidgeting and hype -so it has to be used with care. I have seen alot of people use chuckits as high value rewards coming unstuck, because the dog loses an element of control -patience for want of a better word and they become so locked onto the ball that if you were to throw the ball out and ask them to do a behaviour before they could go and retreive it the dog wouldn't be able to do anything but focus on the ball. Commonly known as 'having a collie head on', and as a consequence have to then train in 'stillness' -just something to be aware of.

Allyson

Interesting as I use ball throwing as a sort of "de stressor" although I have to say I have a problem with the term "stress" when it comes to dogs.

I deliberately use the fact that my dog is ball crazy for developing self control so that access to the ball is contingent on carrying out a specific behaviour (Premack principle).

That is why I believe that developing self control in dogs is very underused.

stubournazza

I see your point but it is when the ball is used as a huge reward i.e. thrown time and time again -this apparently raises stress levels in dogs and chasing a ball is not like chasing a creature - my lurcher will tell you that even when it is coated in rabbit skin! Laughing

It is the manner in which balls etc are used -same as flyball I'm -pretty sure the dogs would go much faster if they conserved that energy that they use barking!! But the handlers use it to wind themselves and dogs up - very stressful situation - though I'm sure they would say their dogs are 'happy and relaxed'.
Stress is very tenuous when describing dogs and people and it's use is somewhat fluid in terms of definition.
I will search out where I got the information from.

Tina

Allyson

TBH you can use anything to wind a dog up to a frenzy, why anyone should choose to do so is beyond me. When a dog is off his trolley, barking his head off he is not only expending energy needlessly, but it is also not in a position to learn, neither is it focused, calm or under stimulus control.

Unfortunately in a lot of disciplines people confuse lack of control with "drive", the two are not synonymous. One of the reasons behind this illogical behaviour is, IMHO, that people have had less than enthusiastic dogs with low drives and so have worked them up to a state of hysteria to disguise a) their lack of understanding, b) the dog's lack of self control and c) their poor training.

My dogs are rewarded in various manners by various things depending on the exercise, their level of drive etc etc etc.

Ball throwing certainly does not elevate any "stress" levels in my dogs that I can observe, he certainly does not exhibit any visual signs of stress, quite the reverse.

One of the (many) reasons I would never consider participating in flyball is the god awful racket which is even worse than that exhibited at Agility.

stubournazza

Yep the drive bit is what people confuse - hi energy and excitment = high drive!!! Confused

Not the case but they can't see it really - my munstie has high drive but coz he isn't a maniac people think he doesn't have enough drive! Shocked

And the same goes for me re:flyball - the noise and potential damage a dog can do to itself twisting and turning to catch the ball and run back at the same time. Rolling Eyes

Sharpening up the stop whistle

stop whistle

stop whistle

retrieving