showing in Scotland

countrygirl · showing in Scotland

There is a heated debate going on on another forum that im on regarding showing docked dogs in Scotland at shows where the public pay to get in.

To save me ploughing through loads of stuff got to be someone on here who knows lol

Thanks

Caz

Mike

It is completely legal to show a legally docked dog in Scotland, regardless of whether or not the public pay.

BritAnnie

And in all cases the conditions only apply to dogs legally docked after the date of the law coming into force:
England 6th April, Scotland 30th April, Wales 28th March
Why they couldn't have all agreed on a single date beats me Rolling Eyes

countrygirl

Thanks both

the matter has now been clafaried, I wasent totally sure it seems like the lady concerned had been mis-imformed on several occasions at least once by the kennel club.

We had a KC field office at our last show and he was questioned on the same subject by a fellow committee member and guess what she was right and he was wrong

thanks again

Caz

Helen

That doesn't surprise me Caz. The whole thing is a joke. I don't know why they couldn't have had the same rules for everywhere!

Helen

BritAnnie

I must admit life is a lot simpler knowing I cannot dock my puppies(might not matter anyway depending on what we get), but I can show locally any dog I buy that has been docked.

weima

I agree Annie, it does make life easier with a complete ban although I am not complaining too much Wink

I will continue to dock but trying to get the paperwork in order beforehand is hard work! Also, making sure perspective owners are aware of the implications too

BritAnnie

Well it actually makes life interesting for me too - wondering what lengths of tail I'll get from bobtail to full length Rolling Eyes

And how will they be carried? I've seen some really weird tails in the last few months. Wink

Ghilliegumdrop

And some nice ones...that pup in MPD for example, he carries the tail straight out behind [I'm not judging the dog, just the tail Exclamation

] are there more tailed Britts around up there Question

BritAnnie

Not many Brittanys in Scotland at all - only me, Liz and Alithea show, and only me and Alithea trialling, a few actually working though - all my pups from the last litter are except one. About 40 Brittanys in total in Scotland I'd guess.
BA

sako75

Annie , Is Mick Canham not going to trial his young Brittany "Rosie" ??

Barry.

BritAnnie

He might, she is working well. Depends what she can pick up as she is very small.

Ghilliegumdrop

Yes I knew that....but how many with tails Question

BritAnnie

Haven't seen any Brits in Scotland with tails

Liz

You will from the end of April Very Happy

BritAnnie

Yes, I'd almost forgotten about Ozzie - looking forwrd to seeing him - will he make the HPR show?
BA

Liz

Misses it by a couple of weeks Sad

kalico

Our Wire Vizsla litter had a variety of tail lengths from quite short to a couple of long whippy ones..given the choice, we would have docked. None of the pups have been sold to show homes, but i wondered what the rules were on docked dogs.

weima

Bareve

BritAnnie

Kalico's litter was whelped in Scotland so she couldn't have docked anyway, therefore any of her pups could be shown anywhere in the UK.

The whole problem about this Act is the wholesale confusion.

If a litter is born in Scotland the pups may NOT be docked. Therefore as undocked dogs they are able to be shown anywhere in the UK whether there is a paying public or not.

If they were born in England or Wales she could have had them docked if she could prove that the bitch worked(or if they had been presold before docking to a person with a shooting licence) - that is the only criteria - proof that the dam works - a shooting licence held by the owner of the bitch, a letter from a shoot manager or estate owner. However, if they ARE docked they may only be shown where there is NO paying public.
BA

weima

Bath have done away with their charges too. I am amazed that the Blackpool committee feel that they should charge people to go watch the show.....it has to be one of the worst shows on the circuit.....or perhaps they'll pay us to go!!!

countrygirl

Im glad someone knew about Bath I havent seen a schedule yet and was planning ond going as its on my doorstep, dont know why they never send me one and I enter every year lol

Caz

Ghilliegumdrop

Your girl or the dog that you used must have the gene for taillessness......do you have pictures of the pups showing their tails Question

Also did you get your vet to certify that they were born with short tails Question

BritAnnie

I didn't even know the tail-less gene was in WHVs, Kalico - did you know?
BA

Claire

"If they were born in England or Wales she could have had them docked if she could prove that the bitch worked(or if they had been presold before docking to a person with a shooting licence) - that is the only criteria - proof that the dam works - a shooting licence held by the owner of the bitch, a letter from a shoot manager or estate owner. However, if they ARE docked they may only be shown where there is NO paying public.
BA"

And just to add to the confusion, those dogs that fit into the category above can be shown ANYWHERE in Scotland regardless of whether the public pay an entry fee or not, because the Scottish legislation does not include a clause on showing Rolling Eyes

I am not yet affected personally by the various forms of the ban, but in the future, when I get my next dog and/or should I decide to take a litter from Whistle then I will most certainly be affected. And I'll be looking for any bloody loophole I can find - legal of course Wink

BritAnnie

Wonder how many breeds will try to get the bobtail gene introduced into their lines now. Jan is right - it must be in WHVs for Kalico's litter to be different tail lengths
BA

Ghilliegumdrop

I'm surprised that you didn't pick up on that......just goes to show Wink

I wonder where it comes from as GWPs don't have the gene [at least not as far as I know]

windem bang

What a perishing hopeless guddle of a law.

Bill T.

kalico

I wish i had taken better pics of the tails now..we had two heavily coated dark girls..both there tails looked like they had been docked..none of the 8 wiry coats had tails this short..of them they varied in tail length. We put a note in our notes to the new owners that as we live in Scotland the puppies had not been docked. I'll have a look through all the pics and see if any show the different lengths of tails..i suspect most of the pics are head shots or whole body ones when they pups were tiny.

BritAnnie

It would be great to see the tails - I don't suppose you can ask the breeders and see if you can find out where the short tail gene comes from? We'd all be interested I think

kalico

BritAnnie

Gosh, some of them are really dark, aren't they. Do they usually come out so different. I was speaking to a lady with Sinone recently who said their coats sometimes don't come in till they're a year old. But your puppy has a hairy face already. He is sweet. I love the Zebra one Laughing

I can count 9 - how many were there altogether?
BA

kalico

BritAnnie

How many litters have you bred?

kalico

This is the first and last..Kali is to be spayed because of what happened..just put up another thread. I have seen quite a few litters of Vizslas and Wires in their early days though..hence the only reason i knew about the stripes etc!!

Claire

Awww they are gorgous!

Weimars are born with stripes too, disappears after 24hrs.

weima

If I knew how to post a pic I would but I don't Rolling Eyes

The stripes disappear after about a week Claire & it seems to coincide with eyes & ears opening opening.

Claire

I meant to say a week Embarassed

Was reading Wendy's post whilst typing and must have saw the 24hrs Laughing

Gawd, do you know what, I haven't been with it all day, time to go to bed for a good nights kip I reckon!

kalico

I never realised the stripes stayed in Weimers so much longer. Its just amazing when you see how much they grow in 8w, isnt it?

windem bang

Is your bitch related to Penny Patullos ? I've been watching your breed work for years, ever since Penny first got one. Maybe it's just the dogs I'm getting to see but I prefer the wiries to the smoothhair viszlas. They seem to be not quite so sensitive in temperament. They also seem to be keener retrievers and to like water more.

Over the last couple of years I've noticed some large variations in some of the pups bred in the wiries. From the same litter, large and much smaller,dark and lighter colours and most obvious of all a difference in coat type. Not just wirier or softer but one or two seem to have longer slightly curly hair. Penny has one of these last mentioned. I think she looks great, wish she was mine!

Bill T.

kalico

Our bitch is a Lanspar but the sire of the pups is Penny's dog Mattie's son, Monty. I think you are right Bill T they are not like Smooths, we have a Smooth who is lovely but very wired to the moon! Laughing

I find Kali much more reserved..happy to stand back and weigh up a situation..wheras the Smooth would be dashing in without a thought. She LOVES the water - a little too much sometimes!

There does seem to be a great variation in the coat..we did have two heavier, thicker coated very dark coloured bitches who oddly were the two with the much shorter tails..Kali's breeder said that this coat type is a throw back to the Red Setter that was once put through the breed. The longer, slighter curlier hair seems to still give decent protection to the elements. Apparently the other type of coat seen, although, rarely is a long coat..a bit like a long coated Weimy.

windem bang

A smooth hair viszla was the first H.P.R. I ever tried to train, I say tried because trying was as far as I got ! She was given to me to train by an English lord who'd bought a trained lab from me. He doted on this young Viszla bitch and wanted her trained as a peg dog ! He didn't even want her to retrieve just sit at the peg as he shot while the lab did all the work.

I easily trained her to do that but since I had her for a month or two I decided to try to justify my fee and train her if possible as an H.P.R. --- O.K. it wasn't to justify my fee it was to satisfy my curiousity! Laughing

I tried hunting her on a golf course and she ran very well, not much range but plenty of pace. At the end of the course where the short grass met the foot long stuff she stopped dead - she didn't "do" rough !
I tried all sorts of thing s but as soon as we went into even slightly rough grass she tucked in and walked behind my feet looking miserable.

I thought game would get her going and took her picking up on a well "manicured" grouse moor. That was even worse ! She never left my heels. The bangs didn't bother her at all just the cover such as it was. I knew this moor well and went to a place about 150 yards behind the guns where birds usually fell or landed pricked. It was shortish grass - no more than 6 to 8 inches of sheep munched greenery. I told my labs to sit and let her sit beside me. Several birds fell near me, one fell almost dead just 20 feet away on the grass, I sent her for it - she wouldn't go. Another bird pitched in very near us, she clearly saw it as it began to run. I walked towards it egging her on for all I was worth - she just tucked in behind me and took no interest no matter what I or the bird did.

The rest of the day was the same, she was the best peg dog ever, as long as she wasn't expected to retrieve anything or walk on her own through rough grass or heather.
Her owner got her back in due course and was delighted with "her progress," the truth is she did what she'd always intended doing which was nothing at all. He got his "non- slip" peg dog but I got no satisfaction from that bitch at all. As a pet in my house she was unbeatable, very friendly and sort of quietly demonstrative but as a gun dog of any kind she was a dead loss !!!!

Not until I saw Sylvia Coxs' viszla bitch run a grouse moor years later was my my faith restored in the breed. That bitch was exceptional though, I have never seen another viszla of any type go as well since for range and pace and pattern. It was a trial I watched her in and she very deservedly won it.

Bill T.

Helen S

You know why the Wirehaired Vizslas are bolder and like water better? The Hungarians used GWP to get the wire coat to make the Smoothhair more tolerant of severe weather conditions. They only wanted the coat from the GWP but obviously got some other useful qualities as well.

Helen S

windem bang

Hi Helen, I recently read the same thing on another forum. I said nothing on this forum in case I upset anyones feelings. I seem to do that from time to time! Laughing

Bill T.

Helen

I was amazed when I saw some pics of weim pups with their stripes. I certainly hadn't realised hwv's have them as well!

I'm sure I read somewhere in this thread someone mentioning about setters changing colour? Dotty, my setter was pure white when she was a pup but is now quite speckledy (is that a word?!).

Helen

weima

Helen

I didn't know about that with setters. I have to admit, we had gone down to the kennels to pick up a pointer for our boss and to have a look at some pointer pups when he said he had some 8 week old setter pups and were we interested. He let this big bundle of fluff into the room, who then climbed on my knee and I was smitten. NOT the way I would advise choosing a dog but it worked well in the end lol.

She went from this at 8 weeks:

to this which I think is her about 18 months:

Helen

munstyman

Hmmm Helen,

weima

Ooo Helen I wish you hadn't posted those pics....I am dying for another Setter & you have made me broody now Laughing

Where did you get her from? She looks lovely. Is she a good worker?

Helen S

Dalmatians are born white aren't they and then develop their spots later?

Helen S

Ghilliegumdrop

So do siamese cats Very Happy

guy

i never knew Siamese cats had spots --- you learn something new every day nere

Helen

weima

Ghilliegumdrop

Lots of varieties of cat breeds are born white and get their markings later around 4/6 weeks. Some siamese do have spots and these will fade with age Exclamation

Linda W

I have found this colour thing fascinating. Munsters are born black and white (or brown and white if mismarked Wink

) My bitch has 2 tri-colours as siblings so I couldn't register my litter until I was sure they were all black and white at about 6 weeks old. Though they were all black and white at birth they are now all roan coloured.

Helen

[quote]My parents first Setter came from the Upperwood kennels but of the show variety. They have been good friends for about 40 years.
[quote]

Rob (OH), got his first pointer (who we sadly lost just after Christmas at the grand old age of 15) when she was 18 months from there. He then bred one himself and we went back to them for Milly. They really are a fantastic kennel, producing fantastic working pointers and setters.

Helen

Claire

Aw Helen, sorry to read you have lost Goldie, but she was a grand old age and a little sweetheart with it.

Errrr yes Whistle and I have most definitely been Dottied Mr. Green

She is brilliant though and I must confess that I preferred her to the show english setters that you see. I preferred her head and overall size tbh.

Helen

We took her to ringcraft a couple of times and the number of people who whispered to us that they prefer her to the show lines, was amazing!

She is just great and can't wait to see her really working this year.

Helen

Helen S

Just out of interest how does she differ? I would imagine she is more compact and more intelligent?

Ooops I think I may have just made a "Bill" statement!!

Helen S

Helen

She is smaller and more compact. She has less hair and certainly less feathering. I would say she is more intelligent but she does have her moments lol!

The biggest difference is her working ability!

Helen

windem bang

....... "just made a "Bill " statement ? Laughing

Does that mean I'm famous or infamous ??? Laughing

Think I know what you mean - I'm not famous for my diplomacy ! Rolling Eyes

Bill T.

Helen S

Just in case there were any show type English Setter enthusiasts on the forum Bill!

I only had anything to do with these once. I house sat with a pair of the above for two weeks once, they didn't even seem to know their own names. Mind you if I was called "Rhubarb" or "Custard" I would ignore it too!

Helen S